What is the view of soul transfers in the SARP universe?

[Sean_ODuibher]

I was recently forced to consider the philosophy of soul transfers during RP (in the YSS Genei plot thread, if anyone's interested). Prior to this, I had just considered it a useful tool for perpetuating a character, a nice thing for conserving all of the effort put into creating and maintaining any character. But when it comes down to it, there are some rather unsettling philosophical implications for the whole concept.

Soul Transfer technology is the use of mechanisms to record and imprint the complete consciousness of a person into a database or into another brain. This is typically done to back up a person's consciousness in case their body is destroyed, or to store it for writing to a new body.

I think this phrasing in the wiki makes it abundantly clear that the original consciousness and the STed consciousness can be extant simultaneously. There is, as worded, no way to interpret this other than the ST process making a complete copy of the whole of a person's neural make-up, encompassing all of their neural patterns and memories and every other physical aspect that creates a consciousness for recreation in a different physical brain. So this means that every time a body is switched or a person is revived, the same individual isn't actually persisting. Instead it is an entirely new consciousness with a set of false, but completely indistinguishable memories from another distinct consciousness.

The thing is, I haven't been able to find any mention of any of the absolute plethora of ethical quandaries this has to represent anywhere - and I've trolled through the entirety of the available "Your Questions Answered" archives. Now don't get me wrong; I'm not making some sort of angry diatribe or complaint towards ST tech. In fact, I think it is an incredibly fascinating concept that could have a lot of room for central importance in the RP.

So basically, my question is, what is going on here? What are the running thoughts? Is there any discussion on this topic anywhere? Are these situations just ignored for the sake of smooth plot continuity? Ought the description of the ST process be changed to reflect a situation that doesn't result in these metaphysical issues?

To sum up, thoughts?

EDIT THAT IS NOT REALLY AN EDIT: I just thought of this while previewing before posting. Has any character's ST backup been revived before they had died? Because that could cause problems, and, based off of the wiki, is entirely possible.

 

[Frown-chan]

Interesting quandary you pose there. However, I'd imagine that it would work in a way similar to body transfers in Shirow Masamune's Ghost in the Shell, where the actual neural composite is transferred to the new brain via electrical impulses which literally "carry" the entire neural make-up to the new body, much like neurons carry information to the brain.

Just my two cents.

Edit: But yes, I see where one could get the impression you got. I think the entry ought to be changed in the Wiki.

Further Edit: But if the neural make-up is simply "backed-up," then it's not, in actuality, a "soul transfer." This just gets stranger and stranger.

 

[Fian]

I've thought of that before but also came up to your conclusion, that two of the same can exist and that the hypothetical 'soul' is not transferred. Perhaps the term 'Soul Transfer' is a misnomer and serves to ease the conscience of the transferor and the people around him/her.

Which is why some Nepleslian Power Armors designed under my watch carry 'Medtech Emergency Cryrofreezers', which preserves the whole brain of the pilots. Essentially a mini escape pod for small craft that cant carry the real thing.

MEC Type C
When critical damage is recorded, the MEC automatically beheads and cyrofreezes the pilot's head and jettisons it with a JATO bottle. This is located behind the PA's helmet.

 

[Scot]

Well ya, but the Nep's probably don't have the technology or means to back up a brain, furthermore they are not a race of androids like Yamatai is.

For a Neko, mind and body they are probably not too concerned with, but rather other races that get imported into Neko (Genshin and Yamatai) may have issues with it.

As for how they know a specific person died to backup is something I wondered about too. Like if a whole ship of Neko's died and no one knew about it, will they get backed up?

 

[mizunoyoroko]

I was recently forced to consider the philosophy of soul transfers during RP (in the YSS Genei plot thread, if anyone's interested). Prior to this, I had just considered it a useful tool for perpetuating a character, a nice thing for conserving all of the effort put into creating and maintaining any character. But when it comes down to it, there are some rather unsettling philosophical implications for the whole concept.

Soul Transfer technology is the use of mechanisms to record and imprint the complete consciousness of a person into a database or into another brain. This is typically done to back up a person's consciousness in case their body is destroyed, or to store it for writing to a new body.

It is an interesting conondrum, so I'll throw in my two-cents. Ethically it is quite difficult, there are actually several ammendments within Yamataian law concerning this:

1. Every citizen and plebian has the right to their own thoughts, mind, and exclusive control of any backup copies thereof. (Proposal 3, Item 8; revised by Ketsurui Hanako-Taisa).

This law sets up that even civilians have the right to such technologies, it also states that an ST backup is under the exclusive control of it's owner (the person who is backed up).

Then with the potential of having a 'clone' of yourself with identical memories:

3. It is illegal to clone (make physical copies of) or ST-clone (make mental copies of) any Star Army citizen/plebian/soldier that you do not own without their consent (Proposal 39, Item 2).

It should also be noted that it is illegal for civilians to use ST technology as it is restricted technology (meaning they must go to a Star Army branch and get their backup there).

On the ethical part however, of the copy not being a true copy of the person. With technology like this you have to ask: What defines a person?

Nepleslians have their own backup method: Cerebral Chip (CC). It's a chip inside your brain (Neppies correct me if I'm wrong) that collects data as you live. When you die, every effort is made to recover your head, from which the CC is extracted. After extraction it is placed into a new body (cloning is something they have, and with your head they have a source for DNA *pop* new you). But CC is tricky, there's a chance you won't be able to come back. So for Nepleslians I'd imagine their take on ST technology is generally accepting though perhaps a slight distaste of it for the very reason you mentioned.

Elysians however were the creators of Soul Transfer technology. Honestly I have no idea about the beliefs or motivations behind them, but since they created it, I can't imagine that they dislike it too much.

Yamataians have accepted ST technology as part of their way of life. Medically it makes perfect sense, catch a nasty disease that will kill you? Get an ST. But because of their thorough adoption of this, the Yamataian view on life has changed slightly. Since Nekovalkyrja can be created by the boatload and shipped out almost as fast, and for a while died rather quickly too, life changed from 'is it human, breathing, and free-thinking' to a culmination of their life experiences. Life now, at least as I've been led to believe, is your memories. To a nekovalkyrja, or any member of the military really, the body is just a frame. The only consistent thing from body to body is the experiences that caused them to be who they are. This is further re-enforced when you realize that the ST backup only records everything up to the point of backup, but not after. If you die a month after backup you forget everything that happened during that time. Friends made, lovers met, everything. The only thing death can take from you in this case is who you had become in life. You are right of course, you are a completely different person at that point. That's the issue associated with it, when you die...you don't really ever come back the same.

For an example of the issue you're speaking about watch Arnold Schwarzenegger's movie The 6th Day. It uses something nearly identical to ST technology (it is implemented differently but is effectively identical)

On the UOC. The UOC actually doesn't use ST technology at all. They perceive death to be something sanct, and final.

edit: So for Yamataian purposes, since memories are what they cling to, those can be viewed as their soul. In essence, by modern definition it isn't really transferring a Soul, but by Yamataian definition it is correct. Also another theory might be simply that Soul Transfer might in fact be the name that the Elysians gave it when it was created, and the Yamataians didn't bother changing the name.

 

[Dragonnova]

Interesting point. I actually made two of my three characters dislike the entire idea. (Amelia has apprehensions about it, and my nep senator flat out refuses to do it, saying, 'There's only one me. And if some dumbass tries to clone me I will immediately kill them before ending my own false existance at that point.')

I'm pretty sure that while medically the whole process makes sense, ethically it might not go over well with a lot of people.

 

[Soresu]

One of my old characters Yuriko had an apprehension against it. Second time around, when she died she had been pregnant, was ST'ed, and wasn't her ST was done while she KNEW she was pregnant, and well, she awoke, and no longer was, and it nearly drove her insane, literally.

 

[Fian]

Nepleslians have their own backup method: Cerebral Chip (CC). It's a chip inside your brain (Neppies correct me if I'm wrong) that collects data as you live. When you die, every effort is made to recover your head, from which the CC is extracted. After extraction it is placed into a new body (cloning is something they have, and with your head they have a source for DNA *pop* new you). But CC is tricky, there's a chance you won't be able to come back. So for Nepleslians I'd imagine their take on ST technology is generally accepting though perhaps a slight distaste of it for the very reason you mentioned.

MECs were around before CCs were implemented. Provided the MEC and ejected head undamaged, it is possible to re-clone a body and reaffix the head or brain to it without CC involvement, viola!

The CC doesnt store data in itself, it transfers brain data in real time to a larger communications device nearby (Usually the PA or Shipborne arrays) which is then transmitted and stored in a master computer. The advantage of CC over ST is that downtime for backups is not required and memories are retained up to the point of death, provided transmission back to the master computer is not jammed or lost. The downside is that the data transfer is not foolproof: a person who is repeatedly CCed will experience data corruption which will result in mental distability, which is why a maximum CC resurrection limit is imposed. Advantages over MECs? The person can be ressurected even if the head is not recovered or damaged beyond repair.

There are stored DNA samples of every soldier, thus there is no need to recover the head for DNA.

But recovery of the head is still of importance even with CC as so that it doesnt fall into enemy hands, to confirm the loss of the user and to recover cybernetics installed in the head.

 

[Kai]

There is also the thing of Yaichiro, who was an ST backup whose original was later found to be alive, and was decided to live on as a new person, with basically his whole life crushed. Toshiro knows more about this than I do, it being his character.

 

[Revolver]

Personally, the technology has been something that's really bugged me, so I made Earle, a character who is very, very fine with it, to sort of sort out my issues and to get a perspective from a character who sees it as a ubiquitous technology. So far, so good, but really it still seems like a weird bit of technological singularity that makes Yamataian society really alien and hard to identify with.

 

[Fred]

There was a really interesting debate in Miharu's first mission between Nyton - a Nepleslian - and Miharu's A.I. over Soul Transfer Technology, it's applications and implications.

If there's interest, I can try and dig up the whole thing. Genei is hardly the first place the topic's come up.

 

[Nashoba]

1. Every citizen and plebian has the right to their own thoughts, mind, and exclusive control of any backup copies thereof. (Proposal 3, Item 8; revised by Ketsurui Hanako-Taisa).

But from another discussion regarding race in SAoY

captains can also order a mental transfer into a more appropriate body.

So while a citizen has the right to control their mind, they can be compelled to transfer.

Now the majority of citizens in Yamatai have been through the process so most of them would be comfortable to different degrees. Probably based on the number of times they have been through the process.

But with the NH-29's now having children. Those that are born, have never been through a transfer, so it would (IMO) be reasonable to assume that they might be a bit afraid of the concept.

After all think of how the people had to think back when they first Created the Geshrin and transferred the entire race. "Okay people, our scientists have obtained this really cool technology that we are going to use to take you out of your human body, and put in these new ones we designed...." I'm sure people just lined up for that....

 

[Fred]

A created or birthed youngling nekovalkyrja really has no inkling of what a body transfer is.

And when you think about it, nekos face body transfers in rather extreme cases. It's not like body changing is common, but when you get there, you often have very obvious choices in the matter, or not at all.

Say you're dying and it can't be stopped. Or that you died. Then, it's a little useless to be picky about it - especially for the newly respawned person, whom is just going to wake up and be itself.

If you want to become 'more human' and have a yamataian body, then, you could also be only so glad to be finally rid of what defines you as a war machine too.

Different perspectives abound. but the NH-29 doesn't really bring anything new in the equation.

As for compelling a crew member, heh, well... Hanako pretty much is a neko-supremacist. I wouldn't take that as an absolute, since prior to YE 27, plenty of non-nekos were able to pull off roles on starships and perform. They have other strengths to help balance out their reaction speeds and physical prowess.

 

[MissingNo]

After all think of how the people had to think back when they first Created the Geshrin and transferred the entire race. "Okay people, our scientists have obtained this really cool technology that we are going to use to take you out of your human body, and put in these new ones we designed...." I'm sure people just lined up for that....

Well, you also have to take into account that everyone in a human body was a ticking time bomb. All on the same day, everyone who didn't have a Geshrin body fell over dead. Yui was in school when all of her non-Geshrin friends keeled over...talk about your mind-scarring incidents.

Now that this subject has come up, especially the mention that memories make the person in Yamataian society, I'm starting to consider my neko character, Tweak, to be almost the low-tech variation of this. Her memories are wiped once a day because of a data storage glitch in her brain, with her "soul transfer" device being the journal she keeps. If she loses that, does that mean she's dead and a new person is born in her body every day?

I do know, however, that partly due to being a neko her personality is programmed, hardwired into her, and remains intact (though a human clone may have something similar in genetic dispositions toward certain behavior). Without her journal, though, Tweak's personality would never grow or develop, and even with the journal that growth is limited due to the space available and the means of storage (lacking complete sensor memories). Basically, she reverts to factory settings every day.

 

[Strangelove]

I'd just like to pipe in with the viewpoint of a faction other than Yamatai or Nepleslia.

The Freespacers, I think, are one of the only races that actually accept neural backup technology as a form of actual death and rebirth, as opposed to merely a convenient medical device.

Typically at the end of their natural lifespan they will reincarnate -- effectively being recreated from birth, as opposed to the moment of their death. Neural implants containing the personal logs and journals are transferred over to the successor clone which allows a person to hand down their wisdom to the next generation, not unlike the way parents do in traditional families. However, the differing life experiences ensures that each reincarnation will be different to some degree, thus preventing societal stagnation.

Traditional direct reincarnation (a la ST backups) do exist, but are typically reserved purely for accidental or combat deaths. Even then they are only granted to the best and brightest, which helps weed out society of the incompetent and lazy.

The reason for this unusual practice is that the 'Spacers have a much closer relationship with death than most societies. They are actually engineered for short lifespans, which in theory would constantly reinvigorate their society by preventing the "old elite" from holding back progress. Additionally, the short lifespans contributes to the "community above the individual" mentality by preventing the concentration of wealth and influence over time.

 

[Wes]

I think mizunoyoroko had a really good response that sums things up pretty well.

 

[Sean_ODuibher]

Thanks to everyone for the interesting responses so far. If there are some particular locations where large and/or specifically fascinating discussions of the ethical problems have happened before, I would appreciate someone pointing them out.

Overall, I understand where the Yamataians and other members of the universe are coming from. Particularly in the case of the Yamataians, based on Mizunoyoroko's response, this concept of memory as the soul makes a lot of sense for the system and is a pretty reasonable world view as is. However, I would like to point out a slight problem:

If you die a month after backup you forget everything that happened during that time. Friends made, lovers met, everything. The only thing death can take from you in this case is who you had become in life. You are right of course, you are a completely different person at that point. That's the issue associated with it, when you die...you don't really ever come back the same.

That's right, of course, in the sense that differing experiences change you, so the end result would be differently behaving people. But what I'm really talking about is the fact that when you die, you actually, really die. Your consciousness ends; you are no longer observing or living or whatever (afterlives aside). The "resurrection" that occurs with an ST is not just going to be an individual with a different set of experiences, dating past the point of ST backup of course. It is going to be a different consciousness, in no way connected with the original, other than the imprint of memories.

So really what Mizunoyoroko is describing is the perspective of society as a whole. From that standpoint, the only thing lost is a month or so of memories. But from individual human being's standpoint, one consciousness has ended and another, however superficially similar, has just begun consciousness. And you don't come back.

I think this is actually a really fascinating commentary on the subconscious but extreme utilitarianism of Yamatai (not wanting to speak for other factions): as a whole Yamatai is sacrificing the recognition of millions of distinct and individual lives in exchange for a general absence of societal fear or association with actual death. This kind of thinking is simultaneously very frightening and seemingly inevitable.

 

[MoonMan]

I would like to add that the explanation Fian gave about Nepleslian Cerebral Chips (CC's) and Decapi-Jars used to be true.

Personally, I like to think that in Nepleslia, death has some meaning behind it. People should have a reason to fear death, and that feeling of fear is an emotion that I and the other Nepleslian GMs feel would be a crime to deprive our players of. Although it was never put into the wiki submission after it was decided upon, our GMs got together a few months ago and made some changes to how CC and MEC revivification works.

CC's no longer transmits the data real-time...data as detailed and abstract as an entire schematic of Nepleslian thoughts and brain patterns is too sensitive to be sent reliable across any distance. However, as a sort of trade off, having an in-tact CC means you're almost guaranteed a successful recovery. It's still prone to data misinterpretation through continued use, though.

This makes the MEC device play a much more important part, and at the same time means that any damage to the CC means your chance at second life is kaput.

 

[mizunoyoroko]

That's right, of course, in the sense that differing experiences change you, so the end result would be differently behaving people. But what I'm really talking about is the fact that when you die, you actually, really die. Your consciousness ends; you are no longer observing or living or whatever (afterlives aside). The "resurrection" that occurs with an ST is not just going to be an individual with a different set of experiences, dating past the point of ST backup of course. It is going to be a different consciousness, in no way connected with the original, other than the imprint of memories.

But one also must remember that memories aren't the only thing recorded in an ST backup. Emotional patterns, thought processes, all of the complex mathematical functions written to the digital brains of Yamataians, Geshrin, and Nekovalkyrja that control things like emotion, thought process, reaction(*). Everything. Given identical situations to those expierienced post ST and prior to death the chances that you will make the same decisions are really high. Given that, how different of a person are you really? Given that, what is conciousness? If they will react the same way in identical situations every time are not two conciousnesses the same? You are in fact the same person that left the ST bank after getting backed up even if they died.

Saying that you are a completely different person is only true in the sense that they had expierienced things that the ST clone hasn't, and the ST clone isn't dead while they are. The stance you are taking however isn't too hard for anyone to pick up, in fact I have a character who considered not getting a backup for that very reason, and leaving information for her previous backup concerning her career as well as a recommendation to move on.

Also, this is actually a situation that you can relate to real life. Amnesia. I'd imagine that if you could never regain your memories you would indeed question: "Am I the same person." I propose that this question isn't one that can really be answered. You will have some say "Yes." and some say "No.".

 

[Scot]

It is also fascinating that there are multiple cultures surrounding ST, though it is natural that Yamatai has the most advanced version of it. If you think about it you can make a villain that seems to come back over and over again even after death after death. Same for one that might clone a bunch of personalities.

I always sort of assumed factory made Neko's would have no ill thoughts toward ST as they are programmed with the thought that ST's are good, while those who were made for other reasons have more free thought about such a ritualistic thing. After all Neko's are war machines made by the Empire, and Empires typically dictate on what they want as soldiers on their battlefields.

Neps being more "rough and tough" I would have assumed they would have forgone ST completely, as they would feel like they are becoming "soft" like the Yamatai, or make their men feel too conferable on the battlefields. For exception of significant commanders of course.