What is the view of soul transfers in the SARP universe?

[Sean_ODuibher]

I was recently forced to consider the philosophy of soul transfers during RP (in the YSS Genei plot thread, if anyone's interested). Prior to this, I had just considered it a useful tool for perpetuating a character, a nice thing for conserving all of the effort put into creating and maintaining any character. But when it comes down to it, there are some rather unsettling philosophical implications for the whole concept.

Soul Transfer technology is the use of mechanisms to record and imprint the complete consciousness of a person into a database or into another brain. This is typically done to back up a person's consciousness in case their body is destroyed, or to store it for writing to a new body.

I think this phrasing in the wiki makes it abundantly clear that the original consciousness and the STed consciousness can be extant simultaneously. There is, as worded, no way to interpret this other than the ST process making a complete copy of the whole of a person's neural make-up, encompassing all of their neural patterns and memories and every other physical aspect that creates a consciousness for recreation in a different physical brain. So this means that every time a body is switched or a person is revived, the same individual isn't actually persisting. Instead it is an entirely new consciousness with a set of false, but completely indistinguishable memories from another distinct consciousness.

The thing is, I haven't been able to find any mention of any of the absolute plethora of ethical quandaries this has to represent anywhere - and I've trolled through the entirety of the available "Your Questions Answered" archives. Now don't get me wrong; I'm not making some sort of angry diatribe or complaint towards ST tech. In fact, I think it is an incredibly fascinating concept that could have a lot of room for central importance in the RP.

So basically, my question is, what is going on here? What are the running thoughts? Is there any discussion on this topic anywhere? Are these situations just ignored for the sake of smooth plot continuity? Ought the description of the ST process be changed to reflect a situation that doesn't result in these metaphysical issues?

To sum up, thoughts?

EDIT THAT IS NOT REALLY AN EDIT: I just thought of this while previewing before posting. Has any character's ST backup been revived before they had died? Because that could cause problems, and, based off of the wiki, is entirely possible.

 

[Sean_ODuibher]

Given identical situations to those expierienced post ST and prior to death the chances that you will make the same decisions are really high. Given that, how different of a person are you really? Given that, what is conciousness? If they will react the same way in identical situations every time are not two conciousnesses the same? You are in fact the same person that left the ST bank after getting backed up even if they died.

Saying that you are a completely different person is only true in the sense that they had expierienced things that the ST clone hasn't, and the ST clone isn't dead while they are.

Again, what I'm talking about is the perspective. From an external perspective, you are absolutely right; when a person is revived they are for all intents and purposes the same person. Their consciousness, as you say, reacts identically to the consciousness that made the ST back up. But think about it this way: when an individual (A) dies, they can be revived from their backup and that individual (A1) will seemingly still be around. But the line of consciousness of the original (A) ends. Individual A does not "wake up" as individual A1. Even though A1 might be identical in every neural way, acting identically, feeling identically, remembering events identically to individual A, A1 is not a continuation of A.

I hope that makes more sense, but I'll continue with another analogy just to make sure what I'm saying is clear. Think of this as a computer and a back up. So there is a set of procedures and past operations that influence the current functioning of the computer. In order to prevent the loss of that data, a back up is made. This back up is an identical copy of all of the data of the computer. The key part is that the data, while identical, exists in two separate locations and are now independent. So if the computer "dies," its antecedent chain of actions is broken. The data can still be used thanks to the back up, but the back up never actually was involved in the antecedent chain. The back up is a new, separate data entity, indistinguishable from the outside, but an entirely separate causal linearity.

Okay, I'm really hoping I'm getting my point across, but to be honest, I'm not sure whether the analogy simply confused things more or not. Oh well.

 

[mizunoyoroko]

That's a true statement. Hmm.....you know this whole statement has brought back quantam mechanics into my little headskull (there's a theory that discusses how every decision you make is split into alternate realities for each choice, as you grow it gets pretty crazy).

 

[Yangfan]

Elysians are mostly religious people and believe in the concept of souls, and I believe it was the Elysian inventors of ST who named the technology they invented "Soul Transfer". Whether they were motivated by mysticism or wishful thinking is anyone's guess.

I'd like to think that Yamataians are a more pragmatic people, and less beholden to mysticism. But even on Yamatai, if you look at the laws, a person's "backup" is still considered a deeply personal possession, if not sacred in the spiritual sense.

If you think about it, teleportation in Star Trek is basically the same thing. You get deconstructed at the molecular level, stored as data, and that data is sent through a data stream. You then get reconstructed at the molecular level back on the Enterprise. There are canon stories about people getting stuck in the "pattern buffer" for decades, and about multiple copies of people running around due to accidents involving the teleporters.

So basically the teleporter is killing you and making an identical copy of you at the other location. And while ST is used to "bring someone back", Star Fleet personnel willingly walk onto teleporter pads to save themselves a shuttle trip.

 

[MissingNo]

Yangfan, you just put to words something that's been nagging the back of my mind for ages, ever since I found out how transporters work, but I've never actually been able to think it.

Sean, the wording of your question was "What is the view of soul transfers in the SARP universe". I believe you have your answers : ) It has some preconceptions and accepted views of it based on each culture, but at the same time any one individual in any of the cultures may see it their own way. In a way, Yangfan was right in comparing it with the transporter in Star Trek: You have a well-known and oft-used device that has had its share of glitches, is used by many different races in only slightly differing forms, and there are people in each race that have their own preconceptions, beliefs, and attitudes toward it.

If you wish to get deeper into the discussion (as you seem to want to do with Yoroko), then I suggest making a character and opening up a conversation with another character over the topic sometime. That may be the best place to do so, too, as I know players have explored the topic more in character than out of character.

In reply to Yoroko: I've noticed a slight problem with the whole "quantum universes" thing. The quantum theory states that a particle (take your pick) has infinite states it can be in, correct? But, once that particle is observed, those states collapse into a single state. So, applying that to the universe, the universe indeed has infinite potential. Applying that to a person, you indeed have infinite choices. But, instead of appearing as a thread separating into its individual, infinite, strands with every choice branch, it would be more like infinite choices collapsing into one timeline. Once a choice is observed being taken (whether it is only you or everyone around you, or even if it was possible for the entire universe to see it), then that is the only one of the myriad potential branch universes that exists. To continue the thread metaphor, it would be as if you had one thread, and then all strands were removed except one...but that strand was also a thread, separating into its own strands, that would also be pruned as time continued forward. And a fun note is that not making a choice of your known options is a choice in itself! ("Choosing to do nothing is still a choice.")

EDIT: Sean, I just realized that the Cluster Flux would be a terrific board to do a non-cannon round-table of sorts, with people bringing in their characters and giving more personal accounts of their feelings on the subject. I don't know how well it'd play out, but may be worth a try!

 

[MoonMan]

Nepleslia, as far as I can tell, hold no religion in the ways of life or death. Your born, you live, you die...it's a simple thought pattern that most Nepleslians make the most of. Although these days, the extremely wealthy or the extremely lucky can technically 'live forever', most Nepleslians were and most likely still are taught that you only live but once...hence why it is an inherent Nepleslian trait to indulge in the pleasures of life as frequently as possible. It makes the life-threatening more thrilling, and the extraordinary and skilled Nepleslians more desirable.

Neps being more "rough and tough" I would have assumed they would have forgone ST completely, as they would feel like they are becoming "soft" like the Yamatai, or make their men feel too conferable on the battlefields. For exception of significant commanders of course.

We actually don't just hand out free lives. I think it was agreed upon to only utilize revivification procedures is the patient is really worth it. A good soldier who died in combat, and would still be an asset to the military, sure thing. A horrible soldier who was killed while he was looking down the barrel of his weapon whilst cleaning it...probably not so much, unless he or his folks had some money put away for a new body.

While it may sound very Nepleslian for soldiers to waltz into battlefields head-first as though they were playing a round of Counter Strike, the process of spawning a new body does cost, after all. Very expensive. The military and government only give freebies to the deserving, although if one has the money for it, anybody could be deemed deserving. The sultry voice of two coins rubbing together is very tempting to the supple Nepleslian ear.