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Approved Submission [Yamatai] - Ke-M2-A3100 - Kinetic Energy Absorbing Armor

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Reactive armor has been a staple since the inception of tanks, and anti-armor rounds, bro, since they redirected most of the force of a weapon at the cost of lightly damaging an extremely replaceable outer hull. Better than having to replace the whole chassis, and crew.

It's recently fallen out of mainstream use by NATO countries in favor of Chobham armor (and also because of new anti-tank weaponry that negates a lot of old-school reactive armor), but something like this might be a good tool to counteract power armor-killing weapons like mass drivers.

If there isn't a review up by tomorrow evening, I'll be taking care of this.
 
While I understand reactive armor on tanks, what is to stop part of the concussive force of the blast from also translating into the armor considering you're quite literally encased within it in a very tight space (Second Skin like, as I always imagined them.)? I can see some of the merit of helping ease the kinetic energy, but it seems it may also be slightly detrimental to pilot health.

Also. Most rounds are made from pretty tough stuff too, Durandium being the lighter material, but also I have seen Nerimium rounds, an many more. This also makes me wonder about HE, HEAT, HEDP, HESH, and rounds with such things as Anti-Matter, Plasma, or well while unlikely, I should still add it, Nuclear warheads and tips? (And yes, I understand explosions in space. But still.)

And...I am sure thought has been placed in it, but what of lasers, and any other form of energy weapon being used against an armor carrying this mode of reactive plating?

Also. Another issue is the force of impact compared to the explosive force of the explosive charge employed. I.E speed, energy etc etc.

Also. Scalar.
 
Inertia should be sufficient to keep the person inside of the armor from being killed.

Reactive armor would be effective against any type of warhead for one reason or another regardless of what it is made of. Reactive armor is not intended to destroy an incoming round but rather deflect it. This in turn causes the round to either glance off the armor or have to penetrate through more armor due to the angle at which it travels after hitting the reactive armor.

Nukes and Lasers less so, but the exploding cloud left after the discharge will help dissipate the laser and provide a little bit of protection against a nuclear blast as this cloud would end up getting vaporized first, eating up a bit of the energy that would otherwise hit the armor. It may not be the best option but it is better than nothing.

I also do not see how force of impact (aside from actually triggering the armor, but that is listed in the submission) matters. Perhaps you should elaborate on that.
 
Uso said:
I also do not see how force of impact (aside from actually triggering the armor, but that is listed in the submission) matters. Perhaps you should elaborate on that.

You standing on a highway and a semi running over you at high speed. Or, a hammer striking a nail in a piece of wood or wall, a punch being thrown and hitting someone square in the jaw or face.

Soresu said:
While I understand reactive armor on tanks...

And while I appreciate the time you took to explain everything. It wasn't needed as I kind of knew already. I was asking Nashoba, more or less asking if he took a majority of factors into account (Considering the oddities in arsenals of the races on this site.) and if he thinks this is really a good thing considering kinetic weaponry (Beyond missiles and torpedoes.) has looked like it is falling into decline to some extent. Exhack also made mentions of weapons that are around now that are negating reactive armor, so I imagine they'd be around here as well. ^^;
 
You standing on a highway and a semi running over you at high speed. Or, a hammer striking a nail in a piece of wood or wall, a punch being thrown and hitting someone square in the jaw or face.

Which is why this only reduces the effectiveness of something by 2-3ADR.

There is also no real way to negate reactive armor. Weapons that do this today end up having to be about twice as big as normal so they can carry an explosive charge (or something) to detonate the reactive armor before the main part of the attack hits the armor. So regardless the armor is going to reduce the effectiveness of enemy weapons.
 
I like the armor (Since it is a take on IRL concepts.), never said I didn't. I just question it's usefulness in the setting considering everything everyone employs. But, I find nothing really wrong with it, however, I find the ADR 2-3 Reduction very questionable. I also would appreciate some more description on how interaction with Energy weapons would be effected by this.

Granted it'd be nice if a blurb regarding Scalar would be put within there somewhere.

I would also appreciate it, if my fellow mod, Vesper came in and gave his own views of this.
 
Firstly, shaped charges would be totally useless in this application. Shaped charges are for /penetrating/ things. They aren't terribly useful for anything other than that. All you need for a piece of ERA (explosive reactive armor) is two slabs of metal and a block of explosive between them. It doesn't need any fancy shape or whatnot.

From what I have read ERA is mainly effective against shaped charges and long-rod penetrators (those being the 20:1+ aspect ratio saboted rounds) and of marginal use beyond these two. IRL this is fine, since these two are by a huge margin the most common anti-tank weapons used (the RPG-7, for example, uses a shaped charge warhead and the Abrahams is smooth-bored specifically so it can fire APFSDS rounds with greater accuracy). It protects against these types of weapons in a similar, though different fashion.

1) Against shaped-charges the exploding plate change the angle-of-incidence of the plasma jet and the gas from the explosion helps to disrupt the jet to a degree. Both of these (though by far the former) serve to increase the amount of armor the jet has to get through to penetrate (the second effectively, the first literally). ERA is very effective against single-charge shaped charge warheads. IRL dual-charge warheads have been developed specifically to defeat ERA since the first warhead detonates the ERA and the second punches through the armor.

2) Against long-rod penetrators the force of the outer plate deforms and breaks up the rod, decreasing its penetrating ability.

Against the first, assuming they are single-charge shaped-charge warheads I could see the 2-3 ADR reduction. Against the long-rod penetrators I can also see a similar benefit. The problem enters with the fact that very few kinetic-kill weapons in the setting are actually long rod penetrators. Most of them (including weapons like the Mindy and Daisey gauss cannon) have much more blocky l:w ratios and as a result would be far sturdier and not very likely to break from a ERA plate.

Against other weapons I don't see this having much benefit at all, assuredly not cutting their destructiveness by several times. Against explosions its only going to help. It won't react fast enough to have much affect against pulsed lasers (assuming the explosive gas would have a effect, which I don't think it would). As said, if anything a scalar attack would just cause it to explode, so its no help their either.

On the side of negatives, I can see it causing problems. Against a 70-ton tank covered by 9 inches of alloy plate half a inch of explosive isn't going to do much but rattle up the occupants a little bit. The same on a 100 kg PA thats maybe a inch or two thick (much of that being all its systems) is a totally different deal. Yamataian armors are just not built to handle blunt trauma well. They just can't be, they are too thin for their to be much buffer.

One also needs to consider the effects this would have on a PA in flight, since Yamataian designs uses inertialess propulsion. One of these going off could easily send it rolling off in a direction it doesn't want to go.

Overall, I can see these being quite effective against a narrow range of weapons (as they are IRL) but these weapon types are not very common in the setting. As a result of this, combined with its not insiginifigant drawbacks, I don't think this item would be of substantial use.
 
In other words, there may be R&D efforts to make this In-character, but they won't find it useful enough to put into production? Could they decided to incorporate this technology into ship/shuttle/other vehicle armors instead?
 
Well, from what everyone's said, it looks like this is good to go from a technical standpoint. I'd change it to just -2 ADR against kinetic weapons (one time use) to make things simple and clear to people trying to use this. Basically, we could treat it as a "power up" that we could drop to armored troops on the ground (Halo munitions pod style!) along with ammo and stuff.
 
Changed to a constant 2 ADR reduction.

As for the 'need' question.

From the Mindy 1h page
As with all armors, it protectiveness can be bypassed through the use of excessive kinetic force such as that of a large railgun or being “glomped” by an obese fanboy.

From the Mindy 2-3a page
Code:
As with all armors, it protectiveness can be bypassed through the use of excessive kinetic force.
 
Actually Soresu, even against standard kinetic PA to PA weapons this would be effective.

Soresu said:
Against the first, assuming they are single-charge shaped-charge warheads I could see the 2-3 ADR reduction. Against the long-rod penetrators I can also see a similar benefit. The problem enters with the fact that very few kinetic-kill weapons in the setting are actually long rod penetrators. Most of them (including weapons like the Mindy and Daisey gauss cannon) have much more blocky l:w ratios and as a result would be far sturdier and not very likely to break from a ERA plate.

Because this is a shaped charge though it's not too much of an issue.. First and foremost the ERA plate is less likely because, as you said, there are very few long and thin weapons. In fact it seems that most weapons in SARP are not ideal against the ERA plate method.

Using shaped charges however does make sense. With the ERA method you couldn't hope to destroy a gauss cannon round, heck even with a shaped charge you probably can't destroy it. You can however decrease it's kinetic energy. The blast caused by the charge would be quite effective at slowing down the round enough to presumably provide the DR reduction that the device gives.

Concerning the blow around issue, yep that's gonna happen. If these babies go off the PA is gonna get thrown around by the explosions. Someone mentioned the PA weights, it's important to remember that these PAs actually do weigh around 100kg if not more and have some amount of padding within them for the pilot.

Another method to help handle the blowaround a little better (well to reduce it a little) would be to build these on a 'floating' frame that has a fixed base (attached via molecular tape to the armor). When the shaped charge goes off the floating frame allows it to kick back naturally (the distance to the base from the frame). Additionally, the addition of a gas recoil system could be of even further benefit since as the frame 'floats' back toward the base gas jets attached to the frame could also fire to reduce speed and thus recoil. This combination wouldn't completely negate the recoil of the system operating but I think in combination it might be enough to reduce it to a much more manageable level.

edit:
That probably made no sense to just about everyone. Picture example added

So, here's the bottom of the floating frame:
ai256.photobucket.com_albums_hh183_orewashinigami_bottom.jpg

Attached to the 'floor' of this are metal springs. Note these would not be coil springs. We're talking more like long metal pieces that will naturally bend back into position

(text example: __/¯¯ )

For all those folks that the symbol didn't work out for, in windows hold ALT and press 0175 on your numpad. Anyway lots of those springs.

Here's a picture with the top on:

ai256.photobucket.com_albums_hh183_orewashinigami_top_1.jpg

And a picture showing the bottom, notice how it 'floats'.
ai256.photobucket.com_albums_hh183_orewashinigami_top_2.jpg

Here's a picture showing an explosion and the direction of motion:
ai256.photobucket.com_albums_hh183_orewashinigami_bottom_3.jpg

all of this allows the explosion to be distributed evenly throughout the addon. Further, with the addition of gas jets attached to the upper construction (most likely inside it) you can further negate the kinetic kickback of the explosion. Since ablative armor in general only has a few uses the gasjets will not need to be refueled ever.
 
Again, shaped charges are for punching through things. This is a shaped charge. You do not need or want them for this kind of application.

I forgot a few other things that should be noted in prior post.

A important consideration that needs to be considered in regards to the effectiveness of ERA in regards to solid impactors is the projectile velocity. A modern APFSDS such as the KEW-A1 travels 1,700 m/s whereas anti-armor shots from SARP infantry kinetic-kill weapons travel 6-9,000 m/s and faster. This much higher projectile velocity would make the ERA less effective against all of the kinetic-kill rounds.

Another item that must be considered is the geometry of the ERA tile and its placement on the armor. The effectiveness of any form of ERA is dependent on its thickness, since a thicker tile will have comparably greater ability to deflect a shaped-charge jet. I can't find hard numbers on IRL ERA tile thickness, but from the pictures it seems to be a few inches thick, so the submission is on the thin side.

How the module interacts with the armor also needs to be considered. Each of these modules is only going to protect against a fairly narrow arc of the armor, which is going to necessitate a good number of them to be incororporated. Considering the weight of these modules (which is not at all excessive, they are large metal and explosive bricks, they should be on the heavy side) I can see that causing not inconsiderable weight. Adding a significant percentage of the armors weight would likely through off its balance, which would make it more difficult to maneuver (again, these aren't problems for IRL ERA. Tanks don''t dodge). More importantly than any maneuvering hindrances the panels would cause, the extra weight would affect it in close combat.

Again, the major negative of it is the fact you are detonating a concequential amount of powerful explosive right on the armor. Yamataian PAs are both thin and light. The latter (along with the fact that inertialess drives are used, so the armor has none to counter the blast force) means that the explosion is quite likely to knock around the armor (and the pilot). The former means that the armor can't have much in the way of padding to mitigate the blast. This is a restriction applied on it by the laws of physics and not something super tech padding is going to change. Padding works by increasing the distance (and therefore time) over which a object (in this case the pilot) accelerates or decelerates. With a armor that is, at most, a inch or two thick that thin layer has to contain both the PAs armor panels, its systems, AND the padding so its not going to be able to have much of it.

In Summary
*I can see this system having a -2 ADR against the limited weapon subset of shaped-charge and small-bore long-rod penetrators, though it should be kept in mind that the tiles do seem to be on the thin end. It has also just occurred to me that against long-rod penetrators the fragments are still going to have their full inertia and kinetic energy so even though the penetrative ability is reduced they are still going to have enough energy and inertia to cause (potentially lethal) damage to the pilot.

*Against more generalized kinetic-kill rounds, I could see maybe a -1 ADR against the small-bore hypervelocity rounds (such as the LASR) since the bullets, despite their immense velocity, have comparably small inertia. However, most of these small-bore KK weapons fire in bursts, which would substantially reduce the effectiveness of the ERA so I don't think it would have any meaningful effect against bursts from such weapons.

*Against large-bore hypervelocity rounds and supra-velocity (such as relativistic railguns) rounds of any caliber I do not think it would have any meaningful effect. The first are simply to too durable and have to much inertia to be effected by the ERA. The second are just going to fast for the ERA to effect.

*Against other weapons in the setting (Scalar, lasers, explosives, etc) I do not think the ERA would have any meaningful effect.

With all of these it must be kept in mind that the wearer is /also/ going to be taking damage from the blast since the armor just can't provide much padding. They are also going to be knocked about quite a bit. I am not sure how this would be codified, but it would be a problem since the damage is going to be substantial.

Although any level of non-lethal damage is going to be better than a shaped-charge punching through to incinerate the pilot, considering the minimal-to-negligible (and one-shot nature) defense against most weapons in the setting I don't think this submission would be terribly useful to the SAoY.

Edit:
I don't think the size of these devices (relative to their explosive power) would make such a shock absorbing system useful Yoroko. It just wouldn't have the play to cushion enough of the explosive blast to matter. It would also exacerbate the already existing issues with the modules mass and bulk.

Also, bear in mind that the objective of ERA is to deflect and disrupt a hit, not destroy the impacting round. It would take a lot of explosive to have enough energy to physically destroy a solid metal impactor and that explosive would assuredly be lethal to the pilot of the slim armors that are in use by Yamatai.
 
I didn't write that, Yoroko. :?

Edit: This is why I brought this up, Nash. As this armor is a double edged sword. More or less the things Vesper has listed apply here in regards to this module. That, and I did make it known the explosive charge would jar the pilot. Hopefully this stuff is added in regards to the "What it works against. And what it does not." As well as a warning label in regards to when one of these goes off, and what the person inside of an armor could expect.
 
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