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Setting Submissions Process

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I've seen that when people get frustrated with the site, they're often frustrated because of the Setting Submissions process. I'm really interested in making this part of the site a more positive experience for creative SARPers who have graciously put their time and effort into expansion articles to Star Army's setting and lore.

So I've put together a plan to fix things:

Step 1: We're going to completely rewrite the rules for submission reviewers, with clear, thorough guides on how we expect them to conduct themselves. A key part of this will be positivity.

Step 2: Search for more active and positive moderators and aggressively streamline the overall process to make it faster with less frustrating wait times. Create forms for the submissions so articles and posts always have everything they need to succeed. You've already seen the start of this now that the forum asks for submission URLs and WIP URLs along with the post.

Step 3: Opening submission of new factions again - a date will be set soon. This is a very requested feature.

If you have specific suggestions I want to hear them.

EXAMPLE: Reviewers always should fix typos instead of posting about them in the thread.
 
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In a perfect world, there would not need to be a separate sub-forum for unreviewed submissions as they would be gotten to in a timely manner.
 
Indeed, but we are getting further and further away from submissions being reviewed in a timely manner.

Unfortunately, it is really hard for me to explain why the Inbox Zero approach works better than tagging and flagging. Honestly it sounded a little stupid to me until I started doing it.
 
I beg to differ, @Zack, as over the past couple of weeks most - but not all, unfortunately - reviewers have taken care of their submissions within a timely manner.
 
@Zack, as I recall it was only your submissions that were clogging up the process with controversial material and circumventions to the guidelines.
 
I noticed some submissions being on hold upwards of 24 hours due to reviewers getting to ones they claimed or had not done a checklist for yet. Wes' change should work wonders.
 
I'm only just now finding this thread, and I didn't go through and read all of it, because it looks like it was getting messy right form page one. I'm happy this thread was finally made, cause now I can say this and people will actually pay attention.

@Wes you have not done a bad job picking NTSE mods, but you have done a less than satisfactory job of conveying to the NTSE mods what their power and purpose is. Many times I have seen NTSE mods get side tracked from their purpose of approval to try and sort things out. For example I've seen some NTSE distract from the approval process, because of "the system article doesn't state that there is a resource gathering operation in this system." Which is entirely irrelevant towards approval. But they were so concerned about whether or not the player was following rules that are not in the NTSE's power to enforce, that they constantly delayed approving an article, that was the way it was supposed to be intended. Legix had to step in and take over approval and he had to literally tell them at the end "NTSE is here to see if an article meets approval standards, not enforce the MBL"

The biggest flaw with the NTSE is quite frankly too many people get big heads when they get power, and not enough is being done to fix it when they do. There are other flaws, but unless you fix this, nothing you do can make the NTSE a 'fun' place to be. We don't need rules for the submitter, we need rules for the approver.
 
I think a key element you might be missing in this argument is that the reviewer of an article is following a process or procedure, if you will. One of the steps is to ensure that an article meets the website's guidelines. In the one case that you have used as an example the player submitting the article has a history of abusing the guidelines that everyone else follows. As a result of HIS OWN ACTIONS moderators need to be extra careful to ensure that the article in question will not be one-upping every single other person in the community. Why? The answer is simple, that is part of the moderating process. We need to make sure that it fits into the setting.

While I am not trying to dispute what you are saying I do not want you to point to an example that is less than 100% applicable. I promise that if you were made a moderator you would quickly discover why those specific articles caused so much trouble.
 
Syaoran said:
The biggest flaw with the NTSE is quite frankly too many people get big heads when they get power, and not enough is being done to fix it when they do.
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When people get power they get egotistical, then they flaunt that and use their standing to push over less confident people. When they start flaunting and advertising the fact they're somehow better than everyone else bad things are sure to happen.

So like, be careful in that regard. You could potentially get that sort of person pressuring submissions through or not through on their own agenda. This is why the best leaders don't want to he leaders historically, they don't let their ego get in the way.
 
Then I must be the best of the mods. I'm still waiting for Wes to pull my banner. It's the worst thing I've ever volunteered for. I was immediately persecuted the second day as a moderator. I think it's easy to forget that being a moderator is annoying. Inevitably someone is going to think they have a great submission with no flaws anywhere and they immediately hate you the moment you point out any issues.
 
@Rizzo I know the process for being a NTSE mod well. That's why I know full well that people aren't following it often. I mean I don't want to sound like I'm bragging, but there's a reason my stuff I submit to the NTSE breezes through. It's cause I took the time to understand what the NTSE is supposed to look at and I make sure it complies. I just miss details a lot cause I have a habit of writing articles while I'm sleepy.

But back to the point, it doesn't matter how much history a player has with breaking the rules, my whole point is that the NTSE was -not- appointed to oversee that. If he does end up 'cheating' that is up to the SM and staff to deal with, at no point is that the NTSE's job. So trying to take oversight of that into your own hands is stepping out of line for the NTSE. And that's a big problem with the NTSE, people constantly stepping out of line. If he does end up 'cheating' that is up to the SM and staff to deal with, at no point is that the NTSE's job.

Now I'm fully aware there are some people in the NTSE who are sticking to what they're supposed. Unfortunately for them so many people have made a bad reputation for the NTSE and so little is done about it that the prejudice is automatic.

Also for the record, I know exactly why that article was considered problematic. Please don't act like I'm unaware, I hate to say it like this, but I've been at this longer than you have. So don't treat me like some person who's talking out of the air. Honestly I've been at this longer than most the people who have commented here. I've been commenting on NTSE problems and setting issues here and watching how the NTSE operates and giving suggestions since before Frost even joined the site. And sorry if I sound a little offended, because I am. Just because I'm not an NTSE mod doesn't mean I'm unaware. I'm not an NTSE mod because quite frankly I don't want support the NTSE system until it's fixed. I'm not foolish enough to throw effort into what I consider a broken system. So yeah, if you just sit down and take the time to consider why separation of powers, and hierarchy exist, you'll know why it's problematic to step out of line of your powers just because you think it's right.

(Apologies to the rest of the thread, normally I wouldn't post something like above, but this is not the first time I'm getting this kinda look, and it's frankly getting annoying.)

Edit: @Ethereal forgot about your post cause that part got so long. Hope you look up and see this. But I'm not entierly sure what you're getting at. If you're trying to say that people get big headed then yes I agree with that. If you're trying to say there would be some problem with Wes enforcing a code of conduct and clearly outlining what sort of powers the NTSE has, then I'm not sure what to tell you. If you think outlining the rules and responsibility of a job position, and penalizing/punishing someone for breaking that is a bad idea, I'm amazed.
 
[EDIT] Only just saw Syaoran's recent post. I'll double post a reply to it if it needs one.

@Syaoran thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. It sounds like you think Wes should guide people in how to behave more, right? I have found Wes looks for intuitive people that can guesstimate what to do with the tools in front of them, hopefully really well. It may seem like that's expecting a lot of people to know what to do when they first become mods, but he doesn't expect them to know right away and gives people room for failure. I feel we as a community need to do this a bit better.
Syaoran said:
The biggest flaw with the NTSE is quite frankly too many people get big heads when they get power, and not enough is being done to fix it when they do.
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I want to know what you think would "fix" what you say is the "biggest flaw." If this kind of thing needs fixing, what do you think we need to do to fix it?

@Rizzo I think I said this in VC to Wes or just straight to raz, but I explained how a submitter works to be sure something is perfect upon submission and a reviewer's job is to tell them when it's not perfect or approve it, and more often than not it is not perfect. It's really hard being a submitter and being told your project you thought you had perfected is not what you wanted it to be. It's important the submitter doesn't take anything out on the reviewer at this stage. It's also important during the review process for the reviewer to remember the submitter tried to attain perfection and missed, which can be really stressful.

@Ethereal good point. I like to remember that we're all working together and not against one another on this site.
 
@Ametheliana normally using intuitive people works out well. But that's only when they're being used to operate something 'new'. the NTSE is very long running, and it has its own rules. And frankly speaking, the level of intuition SARP members posses is all over the spectrum. Without a clear cut explanation of the boundaries, there will be misinterpretations of the limits. Also it is definitely a task of the community as a whole. I suppose my wording was poor, I don't intend to put it all on Wes to blame. But Wes is the only one who can come up with the code of conduct for the NTSE without people trying to say "Well I'm just gonna follow the old rules Wes wrote [mod X] isn't Wes so he can't say for sure what's right."

As for a fix, the first step is creating a code of conduct, and outline of boundaries for the NTSE, as mentioned, and if the NTSE mods don't follow it, they are disicplined or removed. (I do not list this for submitters because there -is- a guideline for them, it's just a matter of enforcing it) This should fix the majority of the issue, because people who are accidentally stepping over the line will now be aware of it and fix it, and people doing it on purpose will end up removed. Afterwards it would be a matter of jsut being more careful about who is hired, like avoiding hiring people that at the time of hiring are in a feud with other members of the site.
 
Just saying I knew exactly what to do and have received nothing but favorable responses or no feedback; nothing bad has been stated about how I do NTSE work.

But I also don't foot the drama; I'm just here to tell you if the idea is good or bad and if you should stop or if you should keep going. Normally it doesn't involve safe words, so understandably things get out of hand like this metaphor.
 
@Ametheliana the first part of that article is pretty good. However a little more detail should be put into what the difference between a gatekeeper and a helper are. Cause there have without a doubt been instances of gatekeeping. The '3 steps to a good review' also work, but I'm sure you'll agree that there have been times they've been disregarded and nothing been done, that needs to change.

Now this is where we get to the problem. Rules and Expectations. There is 1 'entry' about anything concerning rules or expectations that the reviewer has to follow in regards to their -own- behavior. The rest of it is relating to what the submitter can do or how the submission should be. In short, literally all we have telling NTSE how they should act is the first part of that entry, and we have nothing that specifically outlines what is in or out of their powers.

So what I would say needs to be added, is a section explaining what rules apply to a NTSE mod, and make them accountable to it. NTSE is something you do voluntarily, if people can't keep up with the expectations they shouldn't do it. Another thing that should be added is the procedure that players should take when they think their NTSE mod is out of line. I know there are allusions to it elsewhere, but putting it right by the rules and expectations of the mods is kinda like saying "People will speak up if you act out, and we'll know." and it keeps it fresh in their minds.

In short we need to stop expecting people to know what they need to do, and instead telling them. That sounds forceful, but while this isn't a 'career' being an NTSE mod is in essence a job. And a job has expectations and requirements, and any job that's even half decent makes the worker aware of those things. THey don't just go "I need you to paint stuff for me, here's how to paint." and then leave. They tell you what you're supposed to pain when they expect it done, and you're aware that if you don't get it done in time there will be consequences of some kind.
 
Okay what does everyone else think of this? Ultimately it's Wes' call if he makes an additional section to this article, but getting input beforehand might be cool for him.
 
I think it's pretty spot on; I wouldn't mind if we put more instances to encourage better behavior in submitters as well as the reviewers, but overall Syaoran is p spot on with the breakdown.
 
I think he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and has the worst ideologies of them all, to enforce a rigid ruleset pisses everyone else off. Not only will we have a harder time getting moderators, it will always be the moderators that are being abused. I have a hard time believing that such few people remember the age-old reality that having too many laws make everyone a criminal. Also, without any flexibility special cases cannot be made for cases that require special dispensation. But I don't offer criticism without advising on a solution. Since @Syaoran thinks he is such a better moderator then the actual moderators by all means, go ahead and take my seat as a moderator! I would genuinely love to see you do better.:)
 
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