I think moving in this direction is a smart way to go, and gives the section more cohesion. Just really want to see the Pact get past this speed bump and the RPs with it go forward.
Colonial Pact Relocation
- Thread starter FrostJaeger
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- geography kikyo sector map pact vsgrotcp
...meh?
Considering how fast we go, the SSS could have very well spotted the folks running things on the other side of the Chen Nebula just as much as they could have spotted the Ersetu and the Neshaten. And yet they have not?
Besides, would it be even relevant to them? "We're on a mission to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go- wait, nevermind. Humans merchants seem to be here already - just another bunch of independents, moving on..."
- If we puzzle out that the Colonial Pact was not over the west of the Chen nebula overnight, it would stand reason that in her many years of galivanting around various underworld societies Uso Tasuki herself could have stumbled upon the knowledge that there were some tech manufacturers in some isolated colony 'over there' - might be worth getting into if she was browsing for possible services.
- Wes introduced other independent worlds before that we had no knowledge of before and could have detected. It's not that outlandish that they wouldn't have jumped to our attention simply because they were not judged as significant in the backdrop of everything going on (such as the two Mishhuvurthyar wars).
Frost, I kind of feel your opposition is on the nitpicky side. It's not really worth making mountains out of molehills and the potential roleplaying gains largely outweigh the required suspension of disbelief
Somehow, this seems to have been turned into a much bigger debacle than this actually deserved. Let's just settle on something pallatable and move on. We have some RPs hinging on this, which is why I feel it's more important to facilitate the process than hinder it - after all, the goal is having fun.
Otherwise, I'd like to see an actual constructive suggestion on how to fulfill more of the prerequisite and empower Arieg's intentions here, rather than deny them. It's easy to say "No," which is why I'd rather see "try this, that would be much better".
Considering how fast we go, the SSS could have very well spotted the folks running things on the other side of the Chen Nebula just as much as they could have spotted the Ersetu and the Neshaten. And yet they have not?
Besides, would it be even relevant to them? "We're on a mission to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go- wait, nevermind. Humans merchants seem to be here already - just another bunch of independents, moving on..."
- If it's besides the Chen Nebula, word of mouth could have done it. It's not becuase it wasn't on the map so far that it wasn't there and existing. It just wasn't significant until recently, that's all.
- If we puzzle out that the Colonial Pact was not over the west of the Chen nebula overnight, it would stand reason that in her many years of galivanting around various underworld societies Uso Tasuki herself could have stumbled upon the knowledge that there were some tech manufacturers in some isolated colony 'over there' - might be worth getting into if she was browsing for possible services.
- Wes introduced other independent worlds before that we had no knowledge of before and could have detected. It's not that outlandish that they wouldn't have jumped to our attention simply because they were not judged as significant in the backdrop of everything going on (such as the two Mishhuvurthyar wars).
Frost, I kind of feel your opposition is on the nitpicky side. It's not really worth making mountains out of molehills and the potential roleplaying gains largely outweigh the required suspension of disbelief
Somehow, this seems to have been turned into a much bigger debacle than this actually deserved. Let's just settle on something pallatable and move on. We have some RPs hinging on this, which is why I feel it's more important to facilitate the process than hinder it - after all, the goal is having fun.
Otherwise, I'd like to see an actual constructive suggestion on how to fulfill more of the prerequisite and empower Arieg's intentions here, rather than deny them. It's easy to say "No," which is why I'd rather see "try this, that would be much better".
Wes already stated his preference and plan of action in a previous thread, guys. You're getting very ahead of yourselves.
EDIT: Quoting my first post here because Fred demonstrated he didn't read it.
EDIT: Quoting my first post here because Fred demonstrated he didn't read it.
Here, Wes said what he prefers and what he is "going" to do about the situation.
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I dissuaded Arieg from the former. As for the latter, I do think I covered the answers to your points already. 
Ah, okay.
True - and my apologies - but wouldn't the SSS at the very least have informed Yamatai about the existence of these "human merchants"?As for the latter, I do think I covered the answers to your points already.
Seeing how 'human merchants' likely operate all around the border everywhere and given how nebula are fairly good spot for ships with matter collection systems to renew their stores, that would have been like saying "Hey, rain is wet." Considering how lovecraftian aliens were being quite successful at working to put an end to the Empire at the time, it seems reasonably plausible to have filed the fact away and moved on without checking further into it.
Pretty much? When Wes uses words like 'seems' he sounds like he's brainstorming along with us, rather than stating something ironclad. That's reinforced by him putting a grid "so we can figure out where to put everything."
I do believe that 'we' doesn't mean the same thing as 'I'.
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Why not wait and see what Wes wants to do before trying to put the system somewhere that makes even less sense (if it were in this Chen Nebula location, the Star Army would already know via SAINT and there'd be little reason to investigate)?
Then wouldn't they have asked said "merchants" for help against the "lovecraftian aliens"? The Colonial Pact, after all, apparently keep one hundred and fifteen warships in Helka Alpha alone.
Good thing I just asked him.
I'd be waiting if I wouldn't be answering Frostjaeger.
Even the SAINT argument is dubious; a) SAINT doesn't have that many ships and it's not actually everywhere, b) SAINT would probably have mostly been occupied helping their Empire win the war., c) I guess SAINT already knows all about the Neshaten and Ersetu and that they have little reason to investigate them (those have been there for decades, quite in easy range on KFY hyperspace drives).
And finally: knowledge is actually highly meta in SARP. Yamatai doesn't know about the Neshaten and Ersetu... 'because'. Yamatai certainly didn't know about the existence of the Lorath until people created the Lorath species and they talked to Wes and a conversation along the lines of "Hey, Wes, can you have your plotship make contact with our new species " (or the reverse, I don't recall) and suddenly things ICly become scripted to happen a certain way, realistic or not.
Hence my sense that this topic is being nitpicked at and that there's actually a far easier solution to it.
I'd be waiting if I wouldn't be answering Frostjaeger.
Maybe those weren't all built back then? Maybe they were mostly grounded back then? Maybe they weren't all that amazing with the tech back then? Maybe those weren't the merchant ships they saw at the time?
Even the SAINT argument is dubious; a) SAINT doesn't have that many ships and it's not actually everywhere, b) SAINT would probably have mostly been occupied helping their Empire win the war., c) I guess SAINT already knows all about the Neshaten and Ersetu and that they have little reason to investigate them (those have been there for decades, quite in easy range on KFY hyperspace drives).
And finally: knowledge is actually highly meta in SARP. Yamatai doesn't know about the Neshaten and Ersetu... 'because'. Yamatai certainly didn't know about the existence of the Lorath until people created the Lorath species and they talked to Wes and a conversation along the lines of "Hey, Wes, can you have your plotship make contact with our new species " (or the reverse, I don't recall) and suddenly things ICly become scripted to happen a certain way, realistic or not.
Hence my sense that this topic is being nitpicked at and that there's actually a far easier solution to it.
Then when were they built? With only a single shipyard at their disposal, building a fleet that size doesn't exactly happen overnight or in a couple of years.
Unlikely, given that they were making FTL-capable aerospace transports before the Yamatai Star Empire even existed.
Also unlikely, since most of the weapons listed here were created before YE 31.
Then what "human merchants" did the SSS encounter, @Fred?
What better way to win the war than to recruit some new allies?
According to this, Yamatai does know about the Neshaten - and this discussion isn't about "meta" knowledge, @Fred, it's about IC knowledge.
I agree.
As one of the GM that is actually impacted by this, I would like this circular series of quoting to stop so that the matter can be resolved so I can go forward without having to retcon and I can place this base instead of having to place like 3 bases where the system could be.
The point of contention was that this setting discussion was discussed without the people actually using the setting being able to see it.
It has now come to light with the understanding and acceptance that people could not see it.
The discussion has been brought forward so people could discuss it.
@Fred proposed an alternative that moves the system under/near a nebula that have reasonably caused some interference so the SSS missed it.
There is already a precedent for adding systems and whole to the map in areas that aren't developed by more rp.
The original placement of these systems to the Western edge of the by @Wes in the original conversation was done because he did not have the input from @Arieg or @Zack and it was moved forward with the implication that silence is consent in this case.
With all of these things addressed, more arguing on this has accomplished nothing but driven players away and is stalling some rp. The discussion here is placement of the systems on the starmap, nothing else. Not the strength of ship inventory nor anything else. The points have been addressed so unless you are @Wes or have an actual dog in this race, refrain from posting in here or spilling this into the chat. If the point is to wait for @Wes then needling one another does nothing but disrupt what could be meaningful discussion and actually takes away from actually roleplaying on the site. For all of the arguing, a ton of actual roleplay posts could have actually happened.
The point of contention was that this setting discussion was discussed without the people actually using the setting being able to see it.
It has now come to light with the understanding and acceptance that people could not see it.
The discussion has been brought forward so people could discuss it.
@Fred proposed an alternative that moves the system under/near a nebula that have reasonably caused some interference so the SSS missed it.
There is already a precedent for adding systems and whole to the map in areas that aren't developed by more rp.
The original placement of these systems to the Western edge of the by @Wes in the original conversation was done because he did not have the input from @Arieg or @Zack and it was moved forward with the implication that silence is consent in this case.
With all of these things addressed, more arguing on this has accomplished nothing but driven players away and is stalling some rp. The discussion here is placement of the systems on the starmap, nothing else. Not the strength of ship inventory nor anything else. The points have been addressed so unless you are @Wes or have an actual dog in this race, refrain from posting in here or spilling this into the chat. If the point is to wait for @Wes then needling one another does nothing but disrupt what could be meaningful discussion and actually takes away from actually roleplaying on the site. For all of the arguing, a ton of actual roleplay posts could have actually happened.
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As the FM and or creator of the faction and effectively the only opinion that matters besides Wes's I intend to proceed with the 'Just East of Chen Nebula' placement. With that I would like this thread to be locked until Wes feels the need to post in here.
Cool, sounds good to me. Please copy the relevant portion of the main map, paste your systems on to it, and I'll let you know if those work for me. Thanks Arieg for working with others on figuring this out and thank you Fred for tanking a leadership role guiding us to a workable solution.
Apologies for necromancing the thread, @Wes, but is it safe to assume that Hades has been relocated to somewhere east of the Chen Nebula? I ask because I plan on making use of Oshima National Industries' products in an upcoming Elysian plot that I'll be running.