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  • 📅 February and March 2024 are YE 46.2 in the RP.

Daisy II 10 Year Review OOC

  • Do you like Daisy power armor? - Yeah!
  • Do you think it's brought good things to SARP so far? - Yes! There's been so many RPs where it got to shine in.
  • How much is the Daisy actually needed in the Star Army? - Yes. It doesn't make sense to give everyone in the Star Army a Mindy. It allows for more "real" feeling combat.
  • Do you want it to have more presence in your Star Army of Yamatai? - Yes, mainly through showing the Rikugun more.
  • What's your idea of ideal power level of the Daisy next to the Mindy? - The Mindy has always been the expensive F22 Stealth Fighter to the Daisy's old reliable A10 Warthog
 
Also remember, kiddos, a milspec Tenshi II is less than 30k KS all-in at government mass contract rates...
 
I am of the mind that while some IC leeway should be granted in the design process. It should not wholly dictate where it leads. As we are currently having a very civil discussion here in the OOC format that should also be taken into account in the design process. Revision, whatever you please or desire to call it. That way we have perspectives from not only people who are familiar with it from an outside perspective but also in-character. I propose, if it hasn't or if this already is that it be a joint venture in the designing process. Or am I missing the mark on this thread entirely? :s
 
Well, so far, what I've gathered is that Demibear created this thread as an interest check for a renewal on the Daisy to make it a more current power armor in the Star Army. Though what I've gathered after that is that he doesn't want a potential Daisy III to play second fiddle to a Mindy, which to me plays into making it a Mindy+1.

A few others echoed that uprating the Daisy's size scale would be see as a positive.

Kai did a review of the Daisy's main themes. But would like a successor design to be reviewed by him first. (in the meantime, I'm like "What about Doshii Jun?" )

I think what I tried to convey, as something of a 'Daisy 1 purist', is that the flaw make the machine. It's place in the ecosystem is more important than anything else; anything else - in my opinion - is wish-fulfillment.

Demibear put emphasis on the IC thread dealing on the main topic... which I personally sees as kind of redundant to the process. The IC thread has, at this time, gone nowhere useful.

Another proposed new art, but then, might as well make it a new machine.

And other people raised their own babies as potential alternatives (which will never satisfy those with an emotional attachment to the Daisy).

Wes weighted in, affirming that he saw value in the Daisy. He made a charming comparison of the Mindy vs Daisy as being the F-22 to the A-10.

So, ideas are kind of being tossed around everywhere and there's little in the way of agreement save that the Daisy III (if it happens) should be Tier 5. So, to me, this process is currently a race of the first person whom muster the effort of creating a submission for the Daisy III. Then depending on the quality of the attempt, it'll likely be approved out of 'winning the race', or be nay-sayed to death and the effort will either die there or the nay-sayer will team-up to make a better Daisy III a reality.
 
Would it be safe to say that this fits the general consensus:
  • Instead of a new armor, basically create an update program to the existing DAISY
  • The upgraded DAISY armors will be Tier 5 and be slightly bigger and bulkier but maintain the overall appearance of the DAISY II
  • There will be some sort of stronger power source (?) available
  • It will be intended primarily for the needs of the Star Army Rikugun, which wasn't really around when the original DAISY models were written.
    • What does the regular Rikugun need most?
 
Should we also consider adding Zesu to the Daisy III's armor in the upgrade program, as well as some of the other quality of life features the Mindy has if not its mobility features? I'm of the opinion that it should be "different, not cheaper" so people don't just feel like they're using a worse Mindy.
 
I don't care if it plays second fiddle to the Mindy. I'd just like it to have some improved short range mobility (think armored core/wire work in movies) and increased endurance as the Rikugun manager. Doesn't need to fly in space or fly great heights after all, let the Mindy be the Atmospheric/Space Interceptor.
 
Should we also consider adding Zesu to the Daisy III's armor in the upgrade program, as well as some of the other quality of life features the Mindy has if not its mobility features? I'm of the opinion that it should be "different, not cheaper" so people don't just feel like they're using a worse Mindy.
My belief is that the Daisy would remain Yamatai's budget armor. You have the Mindy IV with its state-of-the-art systems (especially the teleporter), and you're better off protecting it as much as possible with zesuaium to protect that investment.

The Daisy is supposed to be the more rugged unit. Less state of the art, focusing on best-bang-for-the-buck. It's also liable to be longer on the field away from support, and needs to make do with more rudimentary means of repairs. That makes Yama-dura one of the better picks for it, since that yamataium alloy is a memory-metal which will 'heal away' most pockmarks, dents and fissures. It's one of the ideal materials to go with the hemosynthetic insert. Being tier 5 will allow it (and its barrier system) the ability to soak up much more punishment than the Mindy would be able to in a straight-up fight... and endure more on an extended campaign.

I think the Daisy would be optimally build on a frame modular enough to permit a full plating swap. So, the possibly is there to plate it in zesuaium. I just wouldn't see it as standard. If Daisy armors are assigned to guarding an important official potentially targeted by hostiles, having the ability to swamp for zesuaium would be sought after. Zesuaium doesn't really repair, though, which makes its usage more situational.
 
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I wanted to add:
'Rugged' and 'budget' are terms you guys don't seem to like... but there are actual benefits in resorting to tried-and-true solutions that are 20 years old, rather than the cream-of-the-crop tech that's around. As advanced as the Mindy IV is, it's probably greatly reliant on nanomachine repairs to reconstitute its advanced components. Maybe you have advanced repair gear in your Mindy IV carry pack, and maybe it aids you in an emergency... but a ground unit stuck weeks on a planet may benefit by being able to solder-fix a Daisy's circuit panel/AIES, long after their supplies have run out and that they're running on salvage.

Stuff which, I believe, may actually be of use to the Rikugun.

The trick, really, is targeting the level of prowess which will be 'good enough'.
 
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And triple posting, since I want to avoid using the edit button.

I know the A-10 by reputation, but I didn't know a whole lot on the warplane itself, so, I did some research. Here are two interesting videos I found on Youtube:

Given that, here's how I think Miharu Light Industries, whom did an update program on the Mindy II, would handle an update program in the Daisy.

Frame
  • They'd preserve the adjustable exoskeletal frame of the Daisy.
    • A significant highlight of the Daisy was its availability to non-neko.
Insert
  • The hemosynthetic insert is the one with optimal recuperative abilities, both in self-repair and wearer first-aid. If the power armor must push the envelope in term of motive strength, the hemosynth insert is more likely to recuperate.
  • User preference sometimes calls for use of an entirely synthetic insert. There's no reason why such an insert could not be used on assembly of the power armor. However, experience has consistently proven it to be a poorer performing choice.
Armor
  • The armor, as alluded before, is best made modular so that swapping it for a different kind of plating would be feasible. Not only would that enable armor plating swaps to different materials/qualities, but it would enable faster repairs. Yama-Dura would remain as the standard
    • Zesuaium: Yamatai's nigh-impervious sculpted pieces of impervious null-space are super-resistant, but once they sustain damage, nothing will repair it aside from complete (and expensive) replacement . In armor-to-armor combat exotic-energy like plasma or aether are more likely to be used, zesuaium is best used on units fighting vastly inferior opponents, or units in intensive but short missions.
    • Yamataium: The regenerative properties of Yamataium are a double-edged sword. The memory-metal is unable to keep a machined edge and will 'heal' it, rounding any points or edges in said material. Because of that, it is unsuited to being used on power armor, and is generally more welcome on shuttles and starships where the thick and heavy slabs of that material can see the best use.
    • Yama-Dura: mixing in Yamataium and Durandium brings together Yamataium's resilence and regenerative properties along with the lighter weight of durandium, Yama-Dura is less expensive, but brings along a lot of bang-for-the-buck, just a bit less tough than Yamataium, still a memory-metal, but not so much as it cannot hold an edge and be part of a complex machine such as a power armor.
    • Durandium: Inexpensive and light, durandium is a good armor on its resilience-to-weight point of view - only beaten in that respect by Zesuaium It has, however, few other perks other than its accessibility.
  • Stealth-coating would depend on modularity, but it's overall impractical to invest overmuch in the Daisy with it.
    • Xiulurium is expensive, and is a coating that goes atop the plating in place. Even if the power armor is plated with zesuaium, being caught in an explosive is going to ruin gallons-worth of xiulurium with very little payoff.
      • On a unit like the Mindy IV, conceptually an ambush-attacker that hopes to never get hit at all as it strikes-and-fades, xiulurium has some lasting power. you will ambush several times in an engagement, you might not get hit back, and the material is paying off.
      • The less mobile Daisy will get one use out of it, if it can sets off an initial ambush. But its ability to strike-and-fade is lesser, so it will get hit back, and it will lose the coating.
    • Not that stealth cannot be useful to the Daisy. As a short-range unit, enemies with greater engagement ranges could pose a serious problem (i.e.: a ground-bound Daisy being fired at from low-orbit). But since the Daisy's armor is meant to take hits, a different means of stealth or countermeasure should be considered.
  • Of course, the Daisy remains well suited to using a large protective shield. Since the Daisy would be Tier 5, the shield would be larger and sturdier than anything it was able to carry around in the past.

  • One element which could be included in the Yama-dura plating around extremities could be a wire of zesuaium that could go through it at the edges. Yama-Dura cannot stand up to zesuaium bladed weapons, but only a tiny bit of zesuaium could help protect from very ruinous slashing strikes.
    • However, this budget solution is imperfect: it offers no protection from stabs.
    • Still, if it means that you don't lose an arm to a zesuaium chop, or that you're able to use a forearm to deflect a zesuaium hit meant for your torso, this could be worth it.
Power Plant
  • The Daisy's original battery power plant proved sufficient. If the Daisy is going to use mostly handheld weaponry or limited ordonnance, there's little reason to go higher than the battery it had. A battery could be extremely useful in stealth actions, especially considering the above mentions of the Daisy's mission profiles making it unsuitable for expensive stealth-coating.
  • However, if a more powerful power plant should be included, it should leverage itself to being employed to the best KFY technology can offer; and something thatès not accessible to the Mindy:
    • The Mindy IV's dorsal pack is mostly dedicated to its teleporter unit, where energy can be accumulated and be spent in several instances which lends the Mindy its legendary hit-and-fade capabilities.
    • This dorsal pack stores energy which is used in an instant. The Mindy IV uses its power system for teleports, but such a power grid could be used to benefit other systems.
    • If the Daisy benefitted from such a system, it could be dedicated to a barrier system. As many times as the Mindy IV can teleport could be the number of times the Daisy could restore its barrier system while under fire. This could give Yamatai a power armor with an unprecedented ability to weather enemy fire, making it suitable to occupy positions to stand-and-fight... something the Mindy is rather poor at.
    • Such a defensive capability could make the Daisy an equal partner on the battlefield. The Mindy cannot retain ground if it teleports to fight, but the Daisy could have that endurance and give the enemy a target to shoot at. The Mindy would be the hammer, and the Daisy would complete it as the Anvil.
Mobility
  • The estimation would be that the Daisy would be heavily enmeshed in the Rikugun's shuttle and transport assets, meaning that mobility beyond the standard 100kph isn't truly all that necessary.
  • In instances where insertion by transport would be infeasible for the theater of operation, a few alternatives could exist:
    • The orbital drop pod;
    • Atmospheric jet pack, capable of detaching and independent action as a large fire-support drone;
    • Trans-atmospheric jet pack, also capable of detaching and autonomy, though the size of the engines would likely make it an impractical fire-support drone.

  • Drones, in general, aren't popular with human roleplayers. I like them, but they tend to be ignored/unused. If its a large robotic sidekick that happens to be your jetpack/mini-gunship chopper, maybe people will like that more?

Arsenal
  • As other alluded to, the Mindy is a skirmisher and an interceptor, mostly with precision weaponry.
  • The Daisy, now that it is larger at Tier 5, can leverage that with wider arsenal of weapons and ordonnance to cover multiple roles. The needs being:
    • A single target weapon to fight softer target, like unarmored personnel;
    • A weapon able to emit a blast radius, so that multiple soft targets can be taken down at once;
    • A single-target anti-armor weapon;
    • A larger weapon able to benefit from the Daisy Tier-5 size to keep power armor at bay, while being able to effectively perform surgical strikes on mecha (squad-assist-weaponry? The daisy equivalent to the A-10's chaingun);
    • Smart weapons able to be deployed simultaneously at multiple power armored targets.
    • Weaponry capable of breaching a heavy-armored surface for forced entry.
    • Ordonnance with enough power to destroy vehicles, saturation bomb an area or cause significant damage to a fortification
  • The Miharu clan enjoys using the Daisy's shield as its melee weapon. The Daisy's motive strength is sufficient to piece away another power armor, especially with the reinforced knuckles, shoulderpads and knees. If a stronger mean of getting through something much heavier/zesuaium presents itself, a handheld saber rifle usually does the trick (even on only battery power - "How much time do you actually need to kill something in one hit?")
 
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And triple posting, since I want to avoid using the edit button.

I know the A-10 by reputation, but I didn't know a whole lot on the warplane itself, so, I did some research. Here are two interesting videos I found on Youtube:

Given that, here's how I think Miharu Light Industries, whom did an update program on the Mindy II, would handle an update program in the Daisy.

Frame
  • They'd preserve the adjustable exoskeletal frame of the Daisy.
    • A significant highlight of the Daisy was its availability to non-neko.
Insert
  • The hemosynthetic insert is the one with optimal recuperative abilities, both in self-repair and wearer first-aid. If the power armor must push the envelope in term of motive strength, the hemosynth insert is more likely to recuperate.
  • User preference sometimes calls for use of an entirely synthetic insert. There's no reason why such an insert could not be used on assembly of the power armor. However, experience has consistently proven it to be a poorer performing choice.
Armor
  • The armor, as alluded before, is best made modular so that swapping it for a different kind of plating would be feasible. Not only would that enable armor plating swaps to different materials/qualities, but it would enable faster repairs. Yama-Dura would remain as the standard
    • Zesuaium: Yamatai's nigh-impervious sculpted pieces of impervious null-space are super-resistant, but once they sustain damage, nothing will repair it aside from complete (and expensive) replacement . In armor-to-armor combat exotic-energy like plasma or aether are more likely to be used, zesuaium is best used on units fighting vastly inferior opponents, or units in intensive but short missions.
    • Yamataium: The regenerative properties of Yamataium are a double-edged sword. The memory-metal is unable to keep a machined edge and will 'heal' it, rounding any points or edges in said material. Because of that, it is unsuited to being used on power armor, and is generally more welcome on shuttles and starships where the thick and heavy slabs of that material can see the best use.
    • Yama-Dura: mixing in Yamataium and Durandium brings together Yamataium's resilence and regenerative properties along with the lighter weight of durandium, Yama-Dura is less expensive, but brings along a lot of bang-for-the-buck, just a bit less tough than Yamataium, still a memory-metal, but not so much as it cannot hold an edge and be part of a complex machine such as a power armor.
    • Durandium: Inexpensive and light, durandium is a good armor on its resilience-to-weight point of view - only beaten in that respect by Zesuaium It has, however, few other perks other than its accessibility.
  • Stealth-coating would depend on modularity, but it's overall impractical to invest overmuch in the Daisy with it.
    • Xiulurium is expensive, and is a coating that goes atop the plating in place. Even if the power armor is plated with zesuaium, being caught in an explosive is going to ruin gallons-worth of xiulurium with very little payoff.
      • On a unit like the Mindy IV, conceptually an ambush-attacker that hopes to never get hit at all as it strikes-and-fades, xiulurium has some lasting power. you will ambush several times in an engagement, you might not get hit back, and the material is paying off.
      • The less mobile Daisy will get one use out of it, if it can sets off an initial ambush. But its ability to strike-and-fade is lesser, so it will get hit back, and it will lose the coating.
    • Not that stealth cannot be useful to the Daisy. As a short-range unit, enemies with greater engagement ranges could pose a serious problem (i.e.: a ground-bound Daisy being fired at from low-orbit). But since the Daisy's armor is meant to take hits, a different means of stealth or countermeasure should be considered.
  • Of course, the Daisy remains well suited to using a large protective shield. Since the Daisy would be Tier 5, the shield would be larger and sturdier than anything it was able to carry around in the past.

  • One element which could be included in the Yama-dura plating around extremities could be a wire of zesuaium that could go through it at the edges. Yama-Dura cannot stand up to zesuaium bladed weapons, but only a tiny bit of zesuaium could help protect from very ruinous slashing strikes.
    • However, this budget solution is imperfect: it offers no protection from stabs.
    • Still, if it means that you don't lose an arm to a zesuaium chop, or that you're able to use a forearm to deflect a zesuaium hit meant for your torso, this could be worth it.
Power Plant
  • The Daisy's original battery power plant proved sufficient. If the Daisy is going to use mostly handheld weaponry or limited ordonnance, there's little reason to go higher than the battery it had. A battery could be extremely useful in stealth actions, especially considering the above mentions of the Daisy's mission profiles making it unsuitable for expensive stealth-coating.
  • However, if a more powerful power plant should be included, it should leverage itself to being employed to the best KFY technology can offer; and something thatès not accessible to the Mindy:
    • The Mindy IV's dorsal pack is mostly dedicated to its teleporter unit, where energy can be accumulated and be spent in several instances which lends the Mindy its legendary hit-and-fade capabilities.
    • This dorsal pack stores energy which is used in an instant. The Mindy IV uses its power system for teleports, but such a power grid could be used to benefit other systems.
    • If the Daisy benefitted from such a system, it could be dedicated to a barrier system. As many times as the Mindy IV can teleport could be the number of times the Daisy could restore its barrier system while under fire. This could give Yamatai a power armor with an unprecedented ability to weather enemy fire, making it suitable to occupy positions to stand-and-fight... something the Mindy is rather poor at.
    • Such a defensive capability could make the Daisy an equal partner on the battlefield. The Mindy cannot retain ground if it teleports to fight, but the Daisy could have that endurance and give the enemy a target to shoot at. The Mindy would be the hammer, and the Daisy would complete it as the Anvil.
Mobility
  • The estimation would be that the Daisy would be heavily enmeshed in the Rikugun's shuttle and transport assets, meaning that mobility beyond the standard 100kph isn't truly all that necessary.
  • In instances where insertion by transport would be infeasible for the theater of operation, a few alternatives could exist:
    • The orbital drop pod;
    • Atmospheric jet pack, capable of detaching and independent action as a large fire-support drone;
    • Trans-atmospheric jet pack, also capable of detaching and autonomy, though the size of the engines would likely make it an impractical fire-support drone.

  • Drones, in general, aren't popular with human roleplayers. I like them, but they tend to be ignored/unused. If its a large robotic sidekick that happens to be your jetpack/mini-gunship chopper, maybe people will like that more?

Arsenal
  • As other alluded to, the Mindy is a skirmisher and an interceptor, mostly with precision weaponry.
  • The Daisy, now that it is larger at Tier 5, can leverage that with wider arsenal of weapons and ordonnance to cover multiple roles. The needs being:
    • A single target weapon to fight softer target, like unarmored personnel;
    • A weapon able to emit a blast radius, so that multiple soft targets can be taken down at once;
    • A single-target anti-armor weapon;
    • A larger weapon able to benefit from the Daisy Tier-5 size to keep power armor at bay, while being able to effectively perform surgical strikes on mecha (squad-assist-weaponry? The daisy equivalent to the A-10's chaingun);
    • Smart weapons able to be deployed simultaneously at multiple power armored targets.
    • Weaponry capable of breaching a heavy-armored surface for forced entry.
    • Ordonnance with enough power to destroy vehicles, saturation bomb an area or cause significant damage to a fortification
  • The Miharu clan enjoys using the Daisy's shield as its melee weapon. The Daisy's motive strength is sufficient to piece away another power armor, especially with the reinforced knuckles, shoulderpads and knees. If a stronger mean of getting through something much heavier/zesuaium presents itself, a handheld saber rifle usually does the trick (even on only battery power - "How much time do you actually need to kill something in one hit?")
In regard to the Daisy's mobility, 100kph would actually be a downgrade. The Daisy, while much slower in space than the Mindy, is only a slight bit slower in atmosphere right now and doesn't use Aether thrusters, meaning it can be traced much less easily since there's no lasting aether trail (and no need to be concerned with ecological damage from the use of raw Aether drives). However, I don't see why we shouldn't try to have the Daisy at least be as fast in atmosphere as a Mindy, just about 90kph higher than it currently goes. Pretty modest as an upgrade goes so I doubt it would take much effort to accomplish, and useful for strategic mobility after being deployed to a planet.

In regards to stealth, Xiulurium is kind of unnessecary. Effort would certainly be better spent on improving the Daisy's existing volumentric and thermal stealth systems. I do enjoy your idea regarding a sort of shield-refresh capacitor module mounted to the Daisy's back, and precedent for this certainly exists in the Mindy's shoulder and leg capacitor modules.

Now moving on to armament, I'd personally like to see the Daisy III integrating some greater degree of weaponry, in accompaniment with a modest powerplant upgrade. It might be nice to bump up its forearm weapons to a tier 5, and/or replacing one of the the W9201 wrist weapons with a W3406 wrist weapon, which is much more versatile. I also think it might be interesting to upgrade the Impactors to have a pilebunker-like function, allowing users to not just use the weapons as batons, but also as powered punches that crack through armor.

I also think it might also be useful to mount some kind of missile launcher on the underside of the forearm mounted shield, in addition to the drones (Perhaps we might switch these out to NSBs for greater standardization) stored there. This ought to be possible since we're likely going to want to enlarge the shield slightly in order to provide equivalent proportional coverage with it. Overall, there are a lot of interesting and good ideas in your post, leaving aside the question of what company would be doing the updating of the Daisy.
 
Xilurium Alternatives:

Sitearium/Stellarium: Probably take too much energy for a PA
Omnihue: Being used now in uniforms and things. Good for thermoptic camo, since "changing color" is literally a superpower.
 
I think, @Fred would benefit from reading the Daisy II article, as nearly all of his points of change are things that I changed from the Daisy I to the Daisy II. As well, I developed numerous weapons via Origin industries specifically for the Daisy II that were utilized several times in RP when I was still running the fifth fleet plot. In all honestly I think what really needs to happen is to retcon the Daisy to Tier 5 (it kind of gets played that way anyway, or it did back when I still ran plots) and maybe do a rework on the shields.

Having some players actually read the Daisy II article and the details, especially in regards to its serviceability, ease of maintenance, and other features, might be a bit of an eye opener. I spent nearly a year writing and refining that article, perhaps more players could spend the 15 minutes or so reading and understanding it. the Daisy II already addressed a majority of the concerns that Daisy I had, while keeping a lot of its ground pounding, bang for buck grunt style flavor (in my opinion anyway) the biggest thing was that it was never given a tier 5 rating that it deserved, and that the wide array of weapons designed for it were almost completely overlooked because they weren't KFY/KZ products.

The Weapons that I had made available at the time were the following:
Armor Service Gauss Rifle
Squad Support Gauss Rifle
Gauss Sniper Rifle
Gauss Sub Machine Gun

post-note: I have been semi-jokingly bouncing the idea of a one-and-done anti-ambush shield to add to the Daisy II's kit, the joking part mostly because of the name and acronym I came up with for it; the Chance, High Energy Reducing, Reactive Yield (AKA CHERRY) shield which was to be a higher tier (say tier 6 or 7 max) shield that would be a passive bubble shield which would burn out upon being hit (regardless of tier), and be a replaceable module, essentially stopping a sniper/ambusher from getting the jump on a Daisy without being a permanent reusable OP shield. The joke part was 'Popping the Cherry' as it would go off with an audible pop when hit.
 
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