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Damage Rating Revision Discussion
- Thread starter Wes
- Start date
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system
Alright, I think this version is pretty finalized:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=damage_rating
Alright, I think this version is pretty finalized:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=damage_rating
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system
Updated again.
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=damage_rating
Updated again.
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=damage_rating
Tom
Well-Known Member
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system
Talking about ships being made of carboard or tin and sent out into space combat sounds rather absurd.
The simplification of armor on the terms of raw damage absorption ability is a good move. It's confusing for untech-minded players to sit through 6 or 7 armor choices which read just like the same thing except the one above them on the 'power tier' is heavier or made out of something even harder than than the one before it. These are difficult to understand concepts to players when they read made up words like 'Yamataium'(sp?) or 'Zesuanium(sp?) or 'Durandium'(sp?) etc etc.
Why not just tier everything and be done with it? Using this system practically eliminates the problems that EVERYONE likes to complain about with Zesuanium(sp?) being uber indestructible and unrealistic. It destroys the 'well THIS armor is extra better than that one!' problem as well.
What better way to do that than using a system like this?
Talking about ships being made of carboard or tin and sent out into space combat sounds rather absurd.
The simplification of armor on the terms of raw damage absorption ability is a good move. It's confusing for untech-minded players to sit through 6 or 7 armor choices which read just like the same thing except the one above them on the 'power tier' is heavier or made out of something even harder than than the one before it. These are difficult to understand concepts to players when they read made up words like 'Yamataium'(sp?) or 'Zesuanium(sp?) or 'Durandium'(sp?) etc etc.
Why not just tier everything and be done with it? Using this system practically eliminates the problems that EVERYONE likes to complain about with Zesuanium(sp?) being uber indestructible and unrealistic. It destroys the 'well THIS armor is extra better than that one!' problem as well.
What better way to do that than using a system like this?
Please use this format to add the new DRs. It should go after Propulsion and Range in the Statistics and Perfomance section of a ship's stats.
Make sure to remove any old DRs in the Systems\Armored Hull section.
Code:
==== Damage Capacity ====
//See [[:damage_rating]] for an explanation of the damage system.//
* Hull: XX
* Shields: XX (Threshold X)Make sure to remove any old DRs in the Systems\Armored Hull section.
Fred
Retired Staff
I'd like to point out, again, that the rating for the Plumeria's positron cannons is too high. The weapon assemblies of the Plumeria/Sakura are nestled in the wing pylon and are on a small hull, and yet are giving a very high damage rating.
Because of that, and the desire to make the Irim's positron turrets stronger, you were obligated to raise the Irim's cannons to SDR 4, main gun damage. That's preposterous. No mid-size ship should have that many of that particular type of weapon.
The reason I was recommending that you set the Plumeria's positron cannons to SDR 2 was to leave room for more powerful positron cannons to look the part, not to nerf the Plumeria. Wes, maybe its time you accept that the Plumeria is a light gunship - a relatively small vessel - and make do with that. Doing otherwise in many ways sort of ruins the ship's identity. Again, less is more.
My recommendations:
SDR 2 - Miharu, Asamoya and Type 30 escort turreted positron cannons; Sakura and Plumeria positron railguns. (Standard)
SDR 3 - Irim and Chiharu class large turreted cannons. (Heavy)
SDR 4 - Coaxial-style positron cannon arrangement like on SMX ships and the Takumi-class heavy cruiser. (Super-Heavy)
* * *
I was under the impression that, with its number of decks and dimensions, that the Arashi-class was a mid-size ship (more a carrier than an escort too... which made it kinda wierd).
* * *
Subspace Detonator AS-7 warheads generate a field that's... *chokes* 31 light seconds big (and that's a radius - so twice in diameter).
Just to imagine that distance better, a light second is the distance a beam weapon crosses in a second... or around three times the distance a fast starship moving at 0.3c crosses in a second. So, assuming you could move in a subspace detonator zone, it'd take roughly 3 minutes (182 seconds) to cross from one side to another. HUGE.
I'm seriously thinking this could be chopped in three, with a mention of the speed the shockwave released has and how long the subspace detonator effect works.
I was under the impression that a subspace detonator warhead was something that disabled shields and FTL/STL engines. Having it cover even more space feels counter-productive as conventional ship weapons become much less viable due to the longer the delay-to-impact distance to take advantage of such a weakness... and I don't get the impression the SD torpedo was made to be a miniature anti-FTL system in the same fashion as the Interdiction Field is.
Because of that, and the desire to make the Irim's positron turrets stronger, you were obligated to raise the Irim's cannons to SDR 4, main gun damage. That's preposterous. No mid-size ship should have that many of that particular type of weapon.
The reason I was recommending that you set the Plumeria's positron cannons to SDR 2 was to leave room for more powerful positron cannons to look the part, not to nerf the Plumeria. Wes, maybe its time you accept that the Plumeria is a light gunship - a relatively small vessel - and make do with that. Doing otherwise in many ways sort of ruins the ship's identity. Again, less is more.
My recommendations:
SDR 2 - Miharu, Asamoya and Type 30 escort turreted positron cannons; Sakura and Plumeria positron railguns. (Standard)
SDR 3 - Irim and Chiharu class large turreted cannons. (Heavy)
SDR 4 - Coaxial-style positron cannon arrangement like on SMX ships and the Takumi-class heavy cruiser. (Super-Heavy)
* * *
I was under the impression that, with its number of decks and dimensions, that the Arashi-class was a mid-size ship (more a carrier than an escort too... which made it kinda wierd).
* * *
Subspace Detonator AS-7 warheads generate a field that's... *chokes* 31 light seconds big (and that's a radius - so twice in diameter).
Just to imagine that distance better, a light second is the distance a beam weapon crosses in a second... or around three times the distance a fast starship moving at 0.3c crosses in a second. So, assuming you could move in a subspace detonator zone, it'd take roughly 3 minutes (182 seconds) to cross from one side to another. HUGE.
I'm seriously thinking this could be chopped in three, with a mention of the speed the shockwave released has and how long the subspace detonator effect works.
I was under the impression that a subspace detonator warhead was something that disabled shields and FTL/STL engines. Having it cover even more space feels counter-productive as conventional ship weapons become much less viable due to the longer the delay-to-impact distance to take advantage of such a weakness... and I don't get the impression the SD torpedo was made to be a miniature anti-FTL system in the same fashion as the Interdiction Field is.
Fred
Retired Staff
SUBLIMEinal
Well-Known Member
Judging by this:
It seems as if the DR tweaks have lost the Nepleslian faction a GM and a genius tech-head, and the Iroma faction a GM, an FM, and most of their tech base.
I understand the need for change from the 10-number system we used to have, but this is going full-tilt into shitty-town. It's moved far too fast, with the entire system being brought up and completely approved in barely a week, if that.
This is stuff that needs DISCUSSION. Wes, you and Fred aren't the only ones designing tech here. Lots of us are, and now every faction GM has at least a week's worth of work to do in changing the system that was adopted thanks to a ridiculously unfair (and hardly representative) "vote" that occurred last night, and was open for less than two minutes.
Yes, I like the new system more than the old. And I like some of the new rules added with its introduction. But it's thusfar led to Exhack's entire tech base being screwed over, or in the case of the VANDR, outright unapproved, in the space of 24 hours. Some of the most active tech designers on the site have now outright refused to design anything with the new system.
So Jesus guys, slow down. Let's get this stuff in a state where everyone can at least approve of it before we change site policy that's been in place since the RP's inception. And for the love of god, we need to become more communicative when it comes to the tech forum, ESPECIALLY unapproved items, as it's led to a whole ridiculous amount of fuss and mess.
Also, Fred, I'd very much appreciate it if you don't reply to this post with a six-page post about how everyone else is wrong and its their problem if they don't agree with your system. We need discussion right now, not a communal "NO U!"
It seems as if the DR tweaks have lost the Nepleslian faction a GM and a genius tech-head, and the Iroma faction a GM, an FM, and most of their tech base.
I understand the need for change from the 10-number system we used to have, but this is going full-tilt into shitty-town. It's moved far too fast, with the entire system being brought up and completely approved in barely a week, if that.
This is stuff that needs DISCUSSION. Wes, you and Fred aren't the only ones designing tech here. Lots of us are, and now every faction GM has at least a week's worth of work to do in changing the system that was adopted thanks to a ridiculously unfair (and hardly representative) "vote" that occurred last night, and was open for less than two minutes.
Yes, I like the new system more than the old. And I like some of the new rules added with its introduction. But it's thusfar led to Exhack's entire tech base being screwed over, or in the case of the VANDR, outright unapproved, in the space of 24 hours. Some of the most active tech designers on the site have now outright refused to design anything with the new system.
So Jesus guys, slow down. Let's get this stuff in a state where everyone can at least approve of it before we change site policy that's been in place since the RP's inception. And for the love of god, we need to become more communicative when it comes to the tech forum, ESPECIALLY unapproved items, as it's led to a whole ridiculous amount of fuss and mess.
Also, Fred, I'd very much appreciate it if you don't reply to this post with a six-page post about how everyone else is wrong and its their problem if they don't agree with your system. We need discussion right now, not a communal "NO U!"
Fred
Retired Staff
Hold on. The multiple sources of shielding thingie Wes just brought up was actually nothing new - it's around a month old now. Why is it causing trouble?
The mitigation value of the shielding is pretty much the equivalent of what the DR was... so on that level, there shouldn't be too much birthing pains here. I understand Exhack's been trying to be inventive and give more themed identity to his submissions, which is also good.
It's a little early to fling hands up in disgust and walk away with our toys and I agree that stuff could be talked out so there can be some adaptation done. However, I'm not going to take kindly to be patronized, especially when faced to what is conservatism and people leaping to conclusions because they only read what they wanted to read and assumed the worst, because there was change involved.
The mitigation value of the shielding is pretty much the equivalent of what the DR was... so on that level, there shouldn't be too much birthing pains here. I understand Exhack's been trying to be inventive and give more themed identity to his submissions, which is also good.
It's a little early to fling hands up in disgust and walk away with our toys and I agree that stuff could be talked out so there can be some adaptation done. However, I'm not going to take kindly to be patronized, especially when faced to what is conservatism and people leaping to conclusions because they only read what they wanted to read and assumed the worst, because there was change involved.
We need to take a serious look at people's attempts to get more shields than the system says they should.
For instance:
Relation discussion: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2964&p=37767#p37767
For instance:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=lo ... :shielding
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=ir ... or_barrier
Relation discussion: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2964&p=37767#p37767
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=lo ... ier_system
Soresu
Well-Known Member
Please keep in mind, the FSBS, is only three components. Not all of us have CFS, so we have to make do with what we've got with separate systems to compensate (Not to mention this is all pre-existing and approved stuff just the ratings have been changed to this new system). I've already brought this to Tomoe's attention however so hopefully he will come in to speak on this.
DocTomoe
Inactive Member
I appear, and I now speak.
1: You approved the shield and it's function a long while ago Wes, we had our spat about it then, and I don't know why we have to do it again. I nerfed it, I broke it, I made it a mere shadow of my original write up, and apparently thats still not enough.
2: Not everyone has a one-shield-does-it-all system like the CDD. Unlike your faction with it's ability to create universes in pockets, the Lorath and some other species have to rely on the more mundane, such as plasma cohesion, electromagnetic fields, gravitational pockets, and other such sources of protection. To accomplish anything resembling useful results, multiple forms of protection are required.
Example:
Lorath ship uses EM shielding.
Mishhu ship uses Scalar.
Lorath ship dies.
Lorath ship uses plasma shielding.
Pirate ship uses Xaser arrays.
Lorath ship dies.
Lorath ship uses gravitic shielding.
Flying space rock hits the ship.
Lorath ship dies.
Lorath ship uses all of the above systems at standard power.
Yamatai ship fires aether.
Lorath ship and the ship behind it and the planet behind it die.
Yeah... pardon the rant but that's how it goes. Also, I have explained to Osaka that the Full Spectrum yadda-yadda was defunct, the article which we favored for design was https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=lo ... :shielding .
Now, I don't like this, and I'm pretty sure there are a number of other factions which don't have one-stop-shopping in regard to shields, so I find this regulation to be quite stifling, unfair, and discouraging to work around.
1: You approved the shield and it's function a long while ago Wes, we had our spat about it then, and I don't know why we have to do it again. I nerfed it, I broke it, I made it a mere shadow of my original write up, and apparently thats still not enough.
2: Not everyone has a one-shield-does-it-all system like the CDD. Unlike your faction with it's ability to create universes in pockets, the Lorath and some other species have to rely on the more mundane, such as plasma cohesion, electromagnetic fields, gravitational pockets, and other such sources of protection. To accomplish anything resembling useful results, multiple forms of protection are required.
Example:
Lorath ship uses EM shielding.
Mishhu ship uses Scalar.
Lorath ship dies.
Lorath ship uses plasma shielding.
Pirate ship uses Xaser arrays.
Lorath ship dies.
Lorath ship uses gravitic shielding.
Flying space rock hits the ship.
Lorath ship dies.
Lorath ship uses all of the above systems at standard power.
Yamatai ship fires aether.
Lorath ship and the ship behind it and the planet behind it die.
Yeah... pardon the rant but that's how it goes. Also, I have explained to Osaka that the Full Spectrum yadda-yadda was defunct, the article which we favored for design was https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=lo ... :shielding .
Now, I don't like this, and I'm pretty sure there are a number of other factions which don't have one-stop-shopping in regard to shields, so I find this regulation to be quite stifling, unfair, and discouraging to work around.
Fred
Retired Staff
Wes, to be honest, I don't really think the number of ways a shield can protect a ship from harm matters all that much. What Tomoe says is true to a certain degree: your CFS does cover a whole lot of things while other people often want to detail their material more - myself included.
As long as the general amount of punishment a ship's protective systems can handle is roughly the same a ship of the size class would manage, this shouldn't be so bad. Basically, having multiple shields types covers hazards the shield would protect from in the first place, that's all.
How?
"Commander! EM shielding dropped to 20%!"
"Transfer power from our gravimetric array to our EM shield! Don't let the Mishhu scalar us to death!"
"Aye!"
Seriously, lets just keep it as a general measure of how much harm a ship's shields (note plural) can take. That way everyone can be happy.
As long as the general amount of punishment a ship's protective systems can handle is roughly the same a ship of the size class would manage, this shouldn't be so bad. Basically, having multiple shields types covers hazards the shield would protect from in the first place, that's all.
How?
"Commander! EM shielding dropped to 20%!"
"Transfer power from our gravimetric array to our EM shield! Don't let the Mishhu scalar us to death!"
"Aye!"
Seriously, lets just keep it as a general measure of how much harm a ship's shields (note plural) can take. That way everyone can be happy.
DocTomoe
Inactive Member
I suppose that may work Fred, but it is a moot idea if I can't have those systems active at one time. Switching around shields is not a very convenient or sane thing to do in the middle of a fire-fight. Also... I realise that the shield article got broken in it's re-working to the new system. I'll have to speak to my aide on the matter later.
Edit, shield article re-worked a little, nerfed the gravitic shields since they're nothing that special.
Edit, shield article re-worked a little, nerfed the gravitic shields since they're nothing that special.
Fred
Retired Staff
Meh, I was just implying balancing between fields so that in the end, the whole thing coped with the amount of damage it was supposed to.
The CFS is essentially a "Combined Field System". There seemed to be little harm in saying that a shield system would protect from Scalar, Xaser and space rocks all at the same time.
The CFS is essentially a "Combined Field System". There seemed to be little harm in saying that a shield system would protect from Scalar, Xaser and space rocks all at the same time.
