Ghoul-B

[Zack]

The Penrose interpretation of the universe and the weapon that uses it should easily fall under suspension of disbelief.

Penrose is far from a crackpot, much further than that scalar beam guy or Tesla. His theory about gravity holding things in one reality is far more plausible than the Copenhagen interpretation of the universe.

 

[Karma Mechanic]

Well Uso, at this point I'm convinced that you really arn't accepting any of my arguements against this weapon, and have your mind set on getting this specific technology approved.

A recap on all the reasons I dislike this particular weapon.

1. Regardless of the physics behind it, a weapon that will damage DNA would not be considered acceptable for use by civil-police forces, because of dangers to the local population and environment. (See my earlier post for elaboration on this point)

2. There are multiple well established devices in the RP(regardless of if we like them or not) that could have the same desired affect, without the DNA damaging side-effects, and that probably provide more functionality.

3. I still haven't read anything yet in my reasearch that makes me think that this isn't just another piece of tech based on fuzzy interpretations of just another set of crack-pot thories that someone found on a Google search.

4. If this rather questionble theory is the one that weapon of the day is based on, what about everything else in the forum that violates this interpretation of the universe?

5. The suspension of disbelief argument is especially stale, and I feel that it is basicly been used as a pancea to make any tech that couldn't stand up to scrutiny acceptable for use in the RP. Also my and I'm sure many others suspension of disbelief doesn't even stretch far enough for me to accept some of the things that we have now, let alone any more like them.

Well I'm done for the moment, would someone else like to chime in with there views?

 

[Cora]

The Penrose interpretation of the universe and the weapon that uses it should easily fall under suspension of disbelief.

I am honestly getting sick of you using that term to get you half assed technology approved here Uso.

Stop making shit up all the time and use established equipment. You can't reinvent the wheel for everythign you make damnit!!

 

[Fred]

I offer a cookie and three internets to Scribbles whom managed to remain objective and polite in delivering his arguments... unlike someone else.

That said, I do kinda agree with Scribbles' point of view, but lack the knowledge to really put up a good argument.

 

[Cora]

Sorry if I offended you but just being bluntly truthful Fred.

 

[Fred]

I am honestly getting sick of you using that term to get you half assed technology approved here Uso.

Stop making shit up all the time and use established equipment. You can't reinvent the wheel for everythign you make damnit!!

Overlong, I tend to get quite aggravated with how you tend to give these poor justifications to your submissions.

Please, seriously reconsider reinventing the wheel for everything that you make and try to use already established equipment! Even if they aren't to your liking, what you bring up is, quite often, not any better.

Respectfully, there is a way and a manner to state your opinion and retain your credibility at the same time. Despite whatever you have against Uso Tasuki's submissions over the forum, I haven't seen him badmouth anyone in this argument (or recently), and that makes me a lot more receptive to what he as to say - even if he's being obstinate and not really seeing the point of view of others. At some point, some people can just agree to disagree and let an arbiter make the final call.

My stance on this: I like the idea of a weapon whom can do disabling damage to ship systems. Indeed, the scalar shielding many vessel now possess does make this hard to attain. If anyone has concrete ways to help Uso Tasuki give his ship some weapon that could amount to that, please speak up (this includes you Wes). Failing that, well, Uso will have to settle with the nearest equivalent in SARP established technologies whom are within the grasp of Nepleslians.

Suggestion from me: subspace-encased is a qualificative that can generally pierce shield. Can this be used?

 

[Zakalwe]

I may chime in later more, and I have to say I am somewhat disapointed in the anti-Zack arguments, but here's one point:

1. Regardless of the physics behind it, a weapon that will damage DNA would not be considered acceptable for use by civil-police forces, because of dangers to the local population and environment. (See my earlier post for elaboration on this point)

This is the Nepleslian police force we're talking about. They don't care. Honestly if a few people get hurt, even civilians, while they are persuing their duty - they don't care. The Nepleslian police force is brutal and sometimes quite cruel, and them using a LTL weapon is rather surprising actually. That they wouldn't worry about the possible health side effects is of no surprise.

 

[Zack]

Scribble's first argument is an IC problem which if anything should be delt with ICly.

The second deals with 'why do you need new tech' for which I answer 'because it isn't there yet'

Third, there is no fuzzy interpretation about it. The theory in a nutshell holds that gravity prevents the effects of quantum foam. This being an explanation for why we don't experience the effects of quantum foam at our scale, because of gravity holding us down. Because at the quantum level gravity is virtually non-existent between particles they are freed up to do whatever they want aka quantum foam. It is logical to assume that if one were to increase the point where quantum foam stops that its energy could be used. In this case, by watering down the gravity of everything in the beam by forcibly spreading it over more space the quantum foam threshold is increased.

Fourth, what about them? I have no real problem with the TTD. It isn't actually the tech that bugs me but the approval process for certain things.

Fifth, fine, I won't use SoD for this.


If you can show me what is wrong with the weapon I will fix it. But in the mean time this is a tech approval thread so keep your arguments about the tech and don't re-hash stuff that has no bearing on this. If you really want you can start an anti-weapon protest group and parade on the streets of Nepleslia. That would create some really weird realisum here.

 

[Derran Tyler]

The second deals with 'why do you need new tech' for which I answer 'because it isn't there yet'

And herein lies your main problem, pimpin':

You don't create new tech because it's needed or desired by someone ICly. You only create it because someone else hasn't done so yet without taking into account why someone in fact hasn't done so.

 

[Zack]

So does anyone have a real reason why the weapon wouldn't work?

 

[Kilian]

Suggestion from me: subspace-encased is a qualificative that can generally pierce shield. Can this be used?

This truly reminds me of the Phasor beam. The Phasor cannon generates a trans-warp beam of energy that actually exists in several dimensions simultaneously, thus damage to energy related matter (shields in this case) take serious damage, and the right calibration of the weapon can easily pierce the target shield. Note that calibration can be contered by multi-phased shields. Also, Phasors deal large shield damage, but little armor, structural and system damage.
The Phasor is almost completely useless against heavy armor or energy dampening defensive fields, and its effect are greatly decreased by systems that can absorb energy.

The point was less dangerous weapons could be used to replace it, and that it is unreasonable for a government to use a weapon with side effects such as these, when the weapon is ment to take down computer systems, not people.

And this part reminds me of the good ol' Ion cannon. I'm sure that most of you have heard about the sci-fi effects, but here goes.
So, the ion cannon is basically a particle cannon, but the particles are electronically ionised. Thus, any damage that penetrates the shield bypasses armor and structure and is dealt directly to overloading the craft's internal systems; computers mostly. Ion cannon are worksafe and have no pollution whatsoever, and living tissue is only slightly effected. Note: Ion cannons are useless against SPACE MOSTERS (OOOOoooooohhhh!) and organic craft.


Those were my two cents. Enough sci-fi storytelling for now.

 

[Karma Mechanic]

Suggestion from me: subspace-encased is a qualificative that can generally pierce shield. Can this be used?

This truly reminds me of the Phasor beam. The Phasor cannon generates a trans-warp beam of energy that actually exists in several dimensions simultaneously, thus damage to energy related matter (shields in this case) take serious damage, and the right calibration of the weapon can easily pierce the target shield. Note that calibration can be contered by multi-phased shields. Also, Phasors deal large shield damage, but little armor, structural and system damage.
The Phasor is almost completely useless against heavy armor or energy dampening defensive fields, and its effect are greatly decreased by systems that can absorb energy.

The point was less dangerous weapons could be used to replace it, and that it is unreasonable for a government to use a weapon with side effects such as these, when the weapon is ment to take down computer systems, not people.

And this part reminds me of the good ol' Ion cannon. I'm sure that most of you have heard about the sci-fi effects, but here goes.
So, the ion cannon is basically a particle cannon, but the particles are electronically ionised. Thus, any damage that penetrates the shield bypasses armor and structure and is dealt directly to overloading the craft's internal systems; computers mostly. Ion cannon are worksafe and have no pollution whatsoever, and living tissue is only slightly effected. Note: Ion cannons are useless against SPACE MOSTERS (OOOOoooooohhhh!) and organic craft.


Those were my two cents. Enough sci-fi storytelling for now.

non

That is Star Trek(-esc) fantasy tech, which doesn't hold much basis in any real science, most ST stuff is a fancy name with a bunch of technobable to make it seem ok.

Don't worry Uso I'm not done yet with this thread, but I am busy some things and haven't finished my next post yet, please forgive me until then for not responding to you right away.

 

[Kilian]

Uh... I never really was a fan of Star Trek, nor do I know the techs. I read most of this stuff in games and books. However, they might be same or quite similar to those of ST weapons. Sigh. Anyway:

One of the major problems was that the weapon poses threat to civilians as well because of the high radiation, right? Unnecessary illnesses and casualties, etc. Bad omen for any weapon. Remember that a company would try to sell its unique product in the widest market possible, and police forces are quite cheap to say the least. Police usually go for: the safest, the most simple, the moderately powerful, reliability, and the possible cheapest.
Maybe if you could modify the weapon system that it merely has temporary paralizing effect on bystanders? That can cause gruesome accidents as well ("I can't move but that wall is gonna fall on me any minute now... Ow..."), but not nearly as dangerous as radiation, which can ruin the DNA structure of a live being.

Edit: I read up on the ship design again. Isn't it too large for police and urban service?

The other thing is the damper field. If it distorts magnetic elements (beams and s***) as well, it will also have a notorious effect on your shields, which is an electromagnetic force field itself. This means that shields and a damper field will cancel each other out and overload your systems. That's just wrong.

This means you should either go for shields or the damper field. I'd personally choose damper field, mostly because whether a weapon is shield piercing or not has no effect on it, and it uses less power than maintaining a constant force field (shield). Also, it would seem more reasonable to me if the damper field would only have potent effect on energy based weapons. I don't think a 20mm depleted uranium core shell will be too 'intimidated' from a damper field. In that case, I would go for hard, multi phased shields which can take the blow from both solid and energy weapons.

Edit 2:

I reread it. Again. The whole craft reminds me of a Master of Orion 2 titan, but skipping design rules. :shock: Tell me it's just me!

 

[Zack]

OK, seriously What the heck?

Phasors from star trek operate on streaming rapid nadions. Not what you said. The federation does not even have trans-warp technology until after the voyager series and phasors clearly existed long before that.

An Ion cannon DOES affect organic things, the massive charge it forces on a target is what can overload electronics.

Comments about the IC usage of the weapon are pointless because that is an IC issue. It should be delt with in role-play not in tech approval which is supposed to be about the tech. That aside radiation is much less of a threat with this settings medical technology.

No, it isn't to large. Larger ships are needed to help compensate for the ship cap imposed by Yamatai.

The shields counteracting each other is incorrect. If anything having an anti-gravity bubble centered on the ship from the dampener field would benefit the distortion shield, albeit slightly. If you read the description the dampener field is not intended to stop physical weapons but to negate scalar fields and such.

 

[Derran Tyler]

Comments about the IC useage of the weapon are pointless because that is an IC issue. It should be delt with in roleplay not in tech approval which is supposed to be about the tech. That aside radiation is much less of a threat with this settings medical technology.

That is hogwash. When submitting new technology you not only have to justify it out-of-character, but you have to justify it ICly as well because if the characters and organizations in the role-play have no real use for this device (either because they have devices that are capable of the same thing or some kind of ethical reason) then it also should not be accepted. You cannot disregard what is going to be accepted in the role-play universe simply because you can justify something OOC.

 

[Zack]

In the sense of what characters do with it, no it does not have to be justified. If people won't use it in RP then it won't be used, simple as that.

Ontop of this the people saying that it won't be used are people who aren't playing in Nepleslia and who don't have a say in what they would use.

 

[Kilian]

Phasors from star trek operate on streaming rapid nadions. Not what you said.

Phaser weapons originate from the Maths (or rather Physics?) method of 'phasor', which is

several waves of similar frequency but different phases and amplitudes are interfered at a point, what is the resulting intensity

, so I was not actually commenting what it fires, but the way it fires.

Of course, an Ion CANNON will burn you to crisps (a pistol sized version would probably cause a serious cramp), but when a craft is hit, the crew doesn't suffer direct damage from the ion beam. Also, I think ion weaponry is only functional in zero-G environments. Though I might be wrong on that one.

The shields counteracting each other is incorrect. If anything having an anti-gravity bubble centered on the ship from the dampener field would benefit the distortion shield, albeit slightly. If you read the description the dampener field is not intended to stop physical weapons but to negate scalar fields and such.

Ummm... you probably mean a sort of jamming device against scalar beams, not a damper field. A damper field is mutually different from a shield and that's why they are not coexistant in the same craft. While a shield meets force with force, a damper field turns the very energy of the offensive material (beam) itself against it. The right calibration will seriously decrease the beam's power, but it will never stop it entirely. That's the second difference between shields and damper fields. The shield's purpose is to eliminate damage to the hull, while the damper field's is to decrease it to non-dangerous levels. The damper field actually saps energy from around it, and that's why it has a serious effect on shields as well. True, you can fit a ship with separate shields and damper fields, but you can use only one at a time, which takes up too much space.
In short: you are looking for a jamming device, not a damper field. Or might I suggest a counter-beam damping system? This is once again non-coexistant with shields, but uses less space and energy, thus it can be used as an emergency method. The point defense damper beams work as countermeasure; they fire bolts of energy with the same amount of energy with opposite elements to cancel the offensive beam out. However, that's a bit too complex if you ask me.

Stick to hard, multi-phased shields and targeting system jammers.

 

[Zack]

You are wrong about phasors, including in the way it fires and the basis in physics. Check http://www.daystrominstitute.com/ when it gets back up. (unless you mean the phasor beam developed for use by the military which is just high intensity light directed at a target to blind it. In which case you would still be wrong.)

You are also wrong about Ion weapons, simply wrong. A massive amount of energy unleashed toward a craft will do damage or at least transfer heat.

You are also wrong about Ion weapons only functional in Zero-G enviroments

You are wrong about the dampener field, read the discription on the craft.

 

[Kilian]

The very base of ion weapons is that they don't generate awesome heat (like lasers or plasma) but overload electronics by charging the particles into electric conductors, which means system overload and failure. Simply being a beam doesn't necessarily create heat.

I understand the meaning of the description, but you are simply abusing the name of the damper field (sorry for the truly harsh 'abuse' word, only this came to my mind now). The equipment on the craft is a sort of specialized beam jamming device, not a damper field. Specialized because it has effects mostly (perhaps only?) on scalar weapons, while a damper field's purpose is to 'dampen' the effects of any kind of energy based material (shields, beams and relatives).

(No offense, but I seriously had the fuzzy feeling that you didn't read my previous post thoroughly enough. :? )

 

[Zakalwe]

Alright, I'm going to see if I can end this little argument over defenitions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_cannon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_Cannon

Note that the Ion Cannon is actually a form of particle cannon.

Killian, I'm sure you mean well but the Dampener effect is actually a well established and named technology. It has actually been approved on other craft with that name. Simply because it is called a Dampener doesn't mean it has to Dampen everything that it comes across, it specifically works against Scalar weapons because Scalar weapons are the only ones effected by an anti-gravity field, if that is how this works. If it works on everythign else it would be called something corny such as 'Universal Dampener', but it's not.

It's not a jamming device because a jamming device is used against communications. No-one uses scalar for communications.