How do IES systems work?

[Kai]

Author Message
Miss Strangelove Post subject: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:25 pm


Okay, I know the last thing we want at this point is another tech while/rant/flame, etc. But this question has been nagging me for a while. Aether and Zesuaium, while powerful, at least have their properties documented. But as far as I can tell IES and NODAL systems have virtually no references to go on as to their limits or resistances to cyberwarfare. In a recent discussion, a SARP member one described some of the potential things PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems can do. Can anyone confirm which of these are and aren't possible?


Everything NODAL is linked to PANTHEON, thus creating a single giant network. This means all the worlds a Yamataian ship has ever visited could be manipulated via NODAL system. Does it really spread like a plague (metaphorically speaking), or is it merely limited to areas with long-term Yamatai colonization? Is there a limit on what the NODAL system can/can't do? (i.e., if they're in the air, and people breath them in, can the NODAL system merely create metallic sand in the lungs and suffocate said person? Or clog veins? Kill brain cells?)


What are the physical manifestations of PANTHEON nodes? Are they starship computers, or are they planet-based super-mainframe facilities, or simply formed from the millionkajillion fetmobots of the NODAL system floating about?


Can PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems be hacked, ever? I don't just mean in theory, but if this is ever attempted in roleplay will it receive the same OOC prohibition as those who attempt copy-cat Aether/Zesuaium (or other "supertech") receives? If it can be manipulated, to what degree?

Can identity registries be manipulated to falsify papers?
Can individual or VIP locations be determined, along with other personal information?
Can logistics or banks be manipulated, such as stealing KS or redirecting supply shipments into a hacker's hands?
Is PANTHEON omni-potent, or is it possible to not be instantly tagged upon illegal access? (I remember Wes mentioned PANTHEON's nodes were structured like a bureaucracy, so theoretically deception should be possible by "pretending" to be a bureau section, right?)
Can ships be blinded? I remember someone once mentioning some Yamataian ships have some sort of sensor system that can even detect events before they happen...
Can ships be disabled, captured, or have its AI severed from its overseer AI?








Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:45 pm


Edited your post a bit Jess. There's no 'PANETHON' - Chris just kept typoing PANTHEON and I guess it stuck with some other people.

I think your questions are going to be best answered by Wes. I've made my own interpretations - but I still somewhat remain at odds with the sensor range -IES computer packages have: they're too powerful and counter intuitive to get along well with me when I GM. ^_^;







Andrew Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:48 pm


I second Fred's motion. This topic is for Wes when he gets back







Wes Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:01 am


O9 Taisho (Site Admin)



Gender: Male
Please PM me a reminder to answer this when I return. I look forward to it.







osakanone Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:37 am


Mmm. This looks like it'll be an exciting thread.

Oh, and Wes, you simply must tell us how the con went.







Miss Strangelove Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:57 pm


Wes wrote:
Please PM me a reminder to answer this when I return. I look forward to it.



Ba-bump for Wes' attention.







Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:35 pm


I'm not sure we can expect a Wes reply soon, so, I'll have a go at it.


Miss Strangelove wrote:
Everything NODAL is linked to PANTHEON, thus creating a single giant network. This means all the worlds a Yamataian ship has ever visited could be manipulated via NODAL system. Does it really spread like a plague (metaphorically speaking), or is it merely limited to areas with long-term Yamatai colonization? Is there a limit on what the NODAL system can/can't do? (i.e., if they're in the air, and people breath them in, can the NODAL system merely create metallic sand in the lungs and suffocate said person? Or clog veins? Kill brain cells?)


The nodal system is pretty much established upon the terraforming of a planet. From that point on, it likely expands into a kind of hive mind organism and maintains its nodal population to a certain level. The Nodal system's function was known to have been disturbed by a snowfall on Yamatai itself. I'm fairly certain the density of the nodal system is usually enough so to not be life threatening (except in fabrication rooms, where they work in highly concentrated quantities).


Quote:
What are the physical manifestations of PANTHEON nodes? Are they starship computers, or are they planet-based super-mainframe facilities, or simply formed from the millionkajillion fetmobots of the NODAL system floating about?


I'd venture to say the the femtomachines are likely capable of acting independantly as a swarm, though evidently it makes for a more solid, useful network with extra nodes of greater power added to their numbers: the IES systems and the Empress' Palace 'SYSTEM' are likely candidates for that.

The IES systems are likely the possible birthplaces of PANTHEON networks. Even the AIES, if it had to go to that point.


Quote:
Can PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems be hacked, ever? I don't just mean in theory, but if this is ever attempted in roleplay will it receive the same OOC prohibition as those who attempt copy-cat Aether/Zesuaium (or other "supertech") receives? If it can be manipulated, to what degree?

Can identity registries be manipulated to falsify papers?
Can individual or VIP locations be determined, along with other personal information?
Can logistics or banks be manipulated, such as stealing KS or redirecting supply shipments into a hacker's hands?
Is PANTHEON omni-potent, or is it possible to not be instantly tagged upon illegal access? (I remember Wes mentioned PANTHEON's nodes were structured like a bureaucracy, so theoretically deception should be possible by "pretending" to be a bureau section, right?)
Can ships be blinded? I remember someone once mentioning some Yamataian ships have some sort of sensor system that can even detect events before they happen...
Can ships be disabled, captured, or have its AI severed from its overseer AI?


The SARP has a large bias against hacking. People are so reliant upon technology that it is in many ways viewed as another way of going for a cheap advantage. It's not going to happen if the GM or the concerned plot feels it'd fulfill something. No one really likes being hacked.

As far as IES units goes, if you have a superior system or superior rights and authority, there is a possibility of being able to take control of an unit with lesser computing power or lesser hiearchy.

A NIWS managed to hack into a Harpy and a Daisy power armor and successfully trigger their self-destruction sequences. Miharu, in turn, relayed itself through a captured Black Spiral scout to seize control of the same NIWS seeing the captured computer was recognized as having a recognized rank higher than the Nodal Integrated Weapon System.

What I learned from the situation when I applied it, though (when I gave my players a chance to have a go at electronic warfare), was that it was a double-edged sword as a GM tool. I've decided not to use it again in the future if I could avoid it.

For the same reasons, you won't find me very receptive to have a Freespacer ship go and hack its way unto my plotship. If I'm not open to it for my plotship, then by extension, most other KFY vessels should share the same 'invulnerability' (since they pretty much have the same kind of hardware) or else it wouldn't make much sense.

So, to answer your question... yes, I think IES computers share the same niche as aether and zesuaium in their, ah, invulnerability to be compromised unless plot demands it.







Yangfan Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:32 am


128-bit encryption is already considered "un-hackable". What makes you think quantum computers will exhibit vulnerabilities at all?

PANTHEON is pretty much the strongest link in the chain on a Yamataian warship. You'd have better luck trying to hack into the captain's brain.







Zakalwe Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:46 am


Quote:
You'd have better luck trying to hack into the captain's brain.



I accept your challenge!

But yes, none of us can really understand programming on this level. The closest thing to hacking I can remember is when two Megami's ripped through Kip on the old Horizon.







MissingNo Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:08 pm


I can recall a particularly amusing attempt at 'hacking' a MEGAMI computer a few years back involving mechandrites and a rather testy sprite.

It ended in failure and a red, hand-shaped mark on the owner of said mechandrites.

All that to say, if you're going to try hacking a SAoY computer, better stay out of arm's reach.

Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:38 pm


How are these nodal bits powered?







Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:14 pm


Ambient light? static electricity? Even-smaller-than-femto-scale-aether-generator?

I dunno. Your guess is as good as mine.







Exhack Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:16 pm


It can't be a micro aether generator. I recall Wes saying that Aether taps can't be smaller than a lunchbox, or something.







Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:28 pm


Indeed, Miniature Aether tech was shot down in other tech submissions. Static Electricity would not be a viable power source for something on this scale and solar power would mean the PANTHEON system wouldn't work in the dark.


Edit: I want to know this because if the system has decentralized power it couldn't be sneakily deployed on other worlds. If it requires a centralized power source that distributes energy to the entire system then a power plant facility of sorts would be required to use the system which has different implications for use.







Exhack Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:31 pm


I'm pretty sure null-entropy works on the nano and smaller scale, in the setting, anyway. It's the most plausible thing, aside from an external power sources.







Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:31 pm


I was half-joking, you know? ~_^







Yangfan Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:34 pm


Solar powered + battery that recharges via solar power? I don't know. It's just a suggestion. \()/

Don't laugh, either. It's how the Mars Rover works, right?







CB Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:42 am


Solar power's one option there.

If anyone's ever read "A Deepness in the Sky" by Vernor Vinge then a similar device (localizers - smart dust essentially) are powered from a central source; essentially the motes nearest the power draw it and then pass it on to the next nearest mote and so on. Something like that is probably the most reliable way to power a decentralised network like this though supplemental energies (like solar) would make it more robust.







Wes Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:31 pm


O9 Taisho (Site Admin)



Gender: Male
Most nodal constructs work by themselves based on their structure and using chemical reactions - when extra power is required, they can work using ambient radiation and magnetic fields.







MissingNo Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:33 am


I understand three of the four power sources you just mentioned: Chemical reactions, radiation, and magnetic fields. But how do they work based on their structure?

Or did you mean to write "...work by themselves based on their structure [by] using chemical reactions...", three energy sources instead of my perceived four?

Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:59 am


This would also seem to imply a huge limit on what the system could do. Ambient energy wouldn't be enough to power many actions and chemical reactions would be like a battery, they would eventually run out of power.







Doshii Jun Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:58 pm


Can't we just say "they just work" for now and phase them out like everything else? Please? This could get ugly if we keep trying to figure it out, and I don't want to see that kind of ugliness again for a long, long time.







Zakalwe Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:19 pm


I second Doshii-Sama on this, we really don't need the agro at the moment.







Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:17 pm


They just work.







Andrew Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:29 pm


I agree.

 

[rathmere]

Not trying to prolong painful discussions but if the computers are really that small, the electons to power them wouldn't have to move very far. If Yamataians have found better conductors than we have now (An extreme likelihood) the electrons would lose less of their momentum and so the femtocomputers could run a long time on a single charge (solar, chemical, whatever).

Just throwing this out, hope it fits.

 

[OsakanOne]

Hacking

There are two types of "hack":
1) Brute-force: The act of having a more powerful computer try to access the target computer by bombarding it, therefor either denying it the bandwidth to do what it does or a massive number of password queries that gain access to the machine with the permissions of a user.

Not all User Logins are actually intended for human use: For example, all systems have what is called a root capability. Root is a super-user, effectively god on a system, capable of making changes to absolutely any file until the system literally can't support the root command.

2) The second (and most likely to work here) is an exploit: Any system has flaws. An exploit as the namesake says, exploits a flaw and dumps code directly into the exploited area and executes it. From here, actions occur whether a user performs them or not.

Once you have exploit access, it's not hard to actually GET login rather than just brute-force it and hence you can typically have the godly access of root on a machine.

Exploiting a system requires you understand the flaw in depth. In a self-amending system like PANTHEON, it would naturally be absolutely ridden with flaws because it's constantly creating new code or amending code (which is very bad practice) on whatever layer of code or API Abstraction it uses.


You can use the same systems on people:

Brute forcing is like beating an answer out of someone or asking someone so many times that you eventually get it right.

Exploiting would be the equivalent of using some subconscious function the person isn't even aware of to get them to do something: It isn't hard to get somebody to hand their wallet and phone over if you time everything right and you know what you're doing and most importantly: they don't expect it.


My two cents on that issue.

 

[Wes]

In a self-amending system like PANTHEON

Self-refining

 

[OsakanOne]

Self refining systems by their very nature cannot exist within the bounds of computer science, biology or the universe itself

As the rate of "self refinement" rises exponentially, you reach what's called the singularity point where the level of refinement per second exceeds the time it takes to implement the refinement throughout the system.

Eventually, the system is no longer able to support itself and would literally in the case of something like PANTHEON, have it's nodes think themselves to death.

The rate of usage for any given system begets the number of flaws that will be found in it. Ergo:
The trains in the UK are considered horrible. The Jaguar E-Type is considered wonderful. The difference is tiny: The train will often get you there first, cost less and be more efficient than the Jag..

For something as huge as Pantheon, it would buckle and fall apart under its own weight. Decentralized systems are notoriously easy to contaminate and control or be locked out of on judgement of the network: hence why the internet isn't quite a decentralized network: hence why Torrents are not and hence why society is not.

I rest my case.

 

[Cannonball]

It is possible to self-refine up to a point. Anyway, that aside for the moment, why did you bring decentralised systems into the discussion? PANTHEON isn't a decentralised system. It's probably the most un-decentralised computer system you can have next to one massive mainframe controlling everything. PANTHEON is a hirarchical system. The king watches over all his subjects and, presumably, sanactions improvements for them (patches, code refinements, etc).

Also, you have to remember that PANTHEON is a smart system. It doesn't have to implement its improvements across the whole network, all at once, or at all if it chooses to do so. Presumably it's capable of keeping itself in check and generally streamlining everything so it works as smoothly as possible. I imagine most of PANTHEON's actual improvements are integration for new code strings - a new programme appears and it rewrites the programme or its existing code to seemlessly interface it with the rest. Like Direct X on steroids - Direct X could force your system to actually play nice with everything else.

Of course, this is all my opinion.

 

[Kevyn]

Be that as it may, you'd still have chinks in the system forming, albeit in single sections of the network rather then the entire entity. These chinks are potential exploits for an enterprising hacker. The fact that PANTHEON is a 'smart' self regulating system limits the points of intrusion, but it can't eliminate them.

Also, the centralized nature of PANTHEON means that there will be delays in the system's response, as nodal elements would have to rely on the approval of the central computer to implement countermeasures or close off loopholes. Granted, we're talking delays on the order of micro- or nanoseconds, but it's still an opening a quantum computer could use.

I'm not saying that hacking PANTHEON wouldn't be stupidly difficult, but it's not impossible. You'd never gain control of the system in its entirety, but you could extract information or drop a worm. Or agitate someone's targeting comp long enough to evade fire.

 

[Andrew]

Kevyn, Very interesting comments.

A few things that I wanted to point out. Frequently in the 5th we have seen manipulation of PANTHEON elements by authorized users. For example the staged execution of Katsuko, The current Necromancy thread, Chujo Miho Hanabusa's attempt to eliminate ShoSho Tange Misato...even moreso the ships used by the Hanabusa to try and defect to the SMX.

I believe YES, it is possible to hack or manipulate parts of the PANTHEON heirachy, but I feel that affecting the top of the system being from what I understand to be Iori (PANT-IES) and Yui is near impossible.

However another tidbit, an Iori system was comprimised in Doshii Jun's plot that he ran in the 5th the first time I was way. Not really sure if there was some technical explination as that it was likely a plot device. (something employed by a GM to create interest while sometimes not falling totally into the realm of plausibility.)

Another PANTHEON goodie is to point out the Black Spiral have some kind of access to it.

Added Post-facto:
I think to do something system-wide would be impossible as well considering each level of the system has the ability to operate independantly. (i.e. The Miharu and several 5th ships have in rescent history disconnected from the network).

 

[Kevyn]

Oh, I don't dispute that last fact. Controlling the entirety of network like PANTHEON would require a massive brute-force attack. And to do that in any reasonable time frame, you'd likely need a quantum computer the size of a dyson sphere, AKA a matrioshka brain. And if the attacker can afford the resources to make one, I think that Yamatai has a lot more to worry about then their central network being subverted.

Strategically, hacking PANTHEON is only good for intelligence gathering, and that's assuming that the SEY does the stupid thing and keeps sensitive files on the network. But hacking should be a valid tactic in, well, tactical engagements. Going from the above transcript, it seems to have been dismissed.

 

[Cannonball]

Hacking on a tactical scale is incredibly hard in and of itself. While it does happen occasionally, the small time-frame of most engagements coupled with a) the power of the computers you'd need to hack and b) quantum-bit encryption means you're looking at a job not really suited for the 10 or so minutes you're going to be in combat.

It is, as you say, reasonable enough to potentially crack isolated low hirarchy nodes (which may or may not have military security - PANTHEON is used by civilians as well). Still, it'd take a while and you might get noticed.

Also, this sort of situation is different to the one Andrew's describing in that what's going on with the 5th is being done by people with almost absolute authority over their local PANTHEON. It's less like a hacker and more like a very skilled admin screwing with you.

 

[Kevyn]

Yes, I'm not denying that it would be difficult, but there are circumstances where it would be a useful in a tactical setting. Like, for instance, disabling the defender's internal systems during a boarding assault. It's by no means a standard tactic, but it's not one that should be discounted, which is the impression that I've gotten from what's seen in the thread.

Also, the issue of time spent and chance of detection are inherent in hacking any system. Even if PANTHEON is a highly advanced quantum state distributed network, the Yamataians by no means have a monopoly on powerful computers. With enough raw power and a skillful hand guiding it, any system can be cracked. The mere fact that it's advertised as 'unbreakable' is only going to entice people into trying it.

 

[Doshii Jun]

We basically avoid hacking because we can't account for it via roleplay. We're not all programmers, and we don't even fully understand the systems we work with ICly. I mean, when I attempted to hack an NIWS, I succeeded without even knowing what I did -- Fred just rolled a dice and set the bar at 18, which he apparently rolled.

Basically? Guns are simple. Hacking is not. So we avoid it. You can make all the technical arguments you want, but we've got enough unresolved complication not to have to open a whole new frontier.

 

[Kevyn]

But, that cuts off entire avenues of character development.

I can understand not wanting to go into too much detail if you only have a vague understanding of the functioning of the computers, but that doesn't mean that you have to kill it altogether. You just simplify the mechanic behind it.

I mean, I have no idea how the drive systems on Nep ships work, but that didn't stop me from creating a engine specialist for the RP. I'll just have to learn as I go, and if there isn't enough info on the function, I'll just have to make it up.

Hell, allowing hackers would be a good way of fleshing out how the inner working of the computer systems actually function.

 

[Zack]

Perhaps to add some realism to hacking you should send your hack to the submissions forum for approval? At the very least it will get disapproved but the resulting discussion will shed more insight into how the computer systems work.

You could even back it up with some RP somewhere. The trail and error bit with trying to find a way to circumvent a system's defenses by spending a lot of time analyzing and gathering data on the system is much more of a realallsitic take on hacking than what is typically done in the setting.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Admittedly, it does cut off entire avenues. GMs aren't bound to avoid it all together -- they can, as always, do what they want, just as Fred did with my hacking of the NIWS unit. I'm just saying that's how it's been in the past. Hacking isn't exactly easy to roleplay, nor is it as fun or heroic or whatever as ending the life of an enemy or blasting a ship to debris, the theory goes.

We get few players who are interested in hacking around here. Yagen is one, and it's always been hard for him (speak up, Yagen!) to get that part of his character utilized. It's the same with engineer characters, which Fred has been working on. That's the thing though -- we want to avoid people just making things up. It gets cumbersome when that's done, and we get continuity issues and blurrrrrrgh it never ends.

When PANTHEON was created, it wasn't meant to be hacked. It was meant to help us out with stuff. It was meant to be unhackable not by virtue of its dominance, but because no one wanted to do it.

You can try it. No harm there. No one's saying no. I, alone, am saying, "Don't expect much for a while."

 

[Wes]

Don't be surprised if your attacking computer gets exploited by very unamused MEGAMI system. Remember, a lot of PANTHEON systems are sapient beings...

 

[Kevyn]

@Doshii - I can appreciate that PANTHEON was initially created for the convenience of the players, but you have to admit that this hacking it would likely come up as soon as you introduced a rival PC faction. The Neps are going to want to try it sooner or later, and the Yamis are going to try and reciprocate on the Neps' internal networks.

@Wes - True, but if you stand a chance of penetrating the meaningful parts of PANTHEON, from a military/political perspective, you're going to need a computer just as powerful, or close to, as powerful as a MEGAMI.

That leads into the interesting subject of what happens if two powerful AIs butt heads.

 

[Doshii Jun]

That, Kevyn, is where we disagree. Because God willing, we never get to that PvP scenario. It'll dissolve into a pissing contest.

 

[Kevyn]

That is a very valid point. Really, the only way that could be reliably be avoided is if important information was keep behind a firewall of empty space.

I think that before we get on with debate, I should take Uso's advice and try to spark some development of the systems that the computers run on, and how they might be penetrated.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Good point. My apologies for going off-topic.