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Miss Strangelove Post subject: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:25 pm
Okay, I know the last thing we want at this point is another tech while/rant/flame, etc. But this question has been nagging me for a while. Aether and Zesuaium, while powerful, at least have their properties documented. But as far as I can tell IES and NODAL systems have virtually no references to go on as to their limits or resistances to cyberwarfare. In a recent discussion, a SARP member one described some of the potential things PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems can do. Can anyone confirm which of these are and aren't possible?
Everything NODAL is linked to PANTHEON, thus creating a single giant network. This means all the worlds a Yamataian ship has ever visited could be manipulated via NODAL system. Does it really spread like a plague (metaphorically speaking), or is it merely limited to areas with long-term Yamatai colonization? Is there a limit on what the NODAL system can/can't do? (i.e., if they're in the air, and people breath them in, can the NODAL system merely create metallic sand in the lungs and suffocate said person? Or clog veins? Kill brain cells?)
What are the physical manifestations of PANTHEON nodes? Are they starship computers, or are they planet-based super-mainframe facilities, or simply formed from the millionkajillion fetmobots of the NODAL system floating about?
Can PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems be hacked, ever? I don't just mean in theory, but if this is ever attempted in roleplay will it receive the same OOC prohibition as those who attempt copy-cat Aether/Zesuaium (or other "supertech") receives? If it can be manipulated, to what degree?
Can identity registries be manipulated to falsify papers?
Can individual or VIP locations be determined, along with other personal information?
Can logistics or banks be manipulated, such as stealing KS or redirecting supply shipments into a hacker's hands?
Is PANTHEON omni-potent, or is it possible to not be instantly tagged upon illegal access? (I remember Wes mentioned PANTHEON's nodes were structured like a bureaucracy, so theoretically deception should be possible by "pretending" to be a bureau section, right?)
Can ships be blinded? I remember someone once mentioning some Yamataian ships have some sort of sensor system that can even detect events before they happen...
Can ships be disabled, captured, or have its AI severed from its overseer AI?
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:45 pm
Edited your post a bit Jess. There's no 'PANETHON' - Chris just kept typoing PANTHEON and I guess it stuck with some other people.
I think your questions are going to be best answered by Wes. I've made my own interpretations - but I still somewhat remain at odds with the sensor range -IES computer packages have: they're too powerful and counter intuitive to get along well with me when I GM. ^_^;
Andrew Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:48 pm
I second Fred's motion. This topic is for Wes when he gets back
Wes Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:01 am
O9 Taisho (Site Admin)
Gender: Male
Please PM me a reminder to answer this when I return. I look forward to it.
osakanone Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:37 am
Mmm. This looks like it'll be an exciting thread.
Oh, and Wes, you simply must tell us how the con went.
Miss Strangelove Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:57 pm
Wes wrote:
Please PM me a reminder to answer this when I return. I look forward to it.
Ba-bump for Wes' attention.
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:35 pm
I'm not sure we can expect a Wes reply soon, so, I'll have a go at it.
Miss Strangelove wrote:
Everything NODAL is linked to PANTHEON, thus creating a single giant network. This means all the worlds a Yamataian ship has ever visited could be manipulated via NODAL system. Does it really spread like a plague (metaphorically speaking), or is it merely limited to areas with long-term Yamatai colonization? Is there a limit on what the NODAL system can/can't do? (i.e., if they're in the air, and people breath them in, can the NODAL system merely create metallic sand in the lungs and suffocate said person? Or clog veins? Kill brain cells?)
The nodal system is pretty much established upon the terraforming of a planet. From that point on, it likely expands into a kind of hive mind organism and maintains its nodal population to a certain level. The Nodal system's function was known to have been disturbed by a snowfall on Yamatai itself. I'm fairly certain the density of the nodal system is usually enough so to not be life threatening (except in fabrication rooms, where they work in highly concentrated quantities).
Quote:
What are the physical manifestations of PANTHEON nodes? Are they starship computers, or are they planet-based super-mainframe facilities, or simply formed from the millionkajillion fetmobots of the NODAL system floating about?
I'd venture to say the the femtomachines are likely capable of acting independantly as a swarm, though evidently it makes for a more solid, useful network with extra nodes of greater power added to their numbers: the IES systems and the Empress' Palace 'SYSTEM' are likely candidates for that.
The IES systems are likely the possible birthplaces of PANTHEON networks. Even the AIES, if it had to go to that point.
Quote:
Can PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems be hacked, ever? I don't just mean in theory, but if this is ever attempted in roleplay will it receive the same OOC prohibition as those who attempt copy-cat Aether/Zesuaium (or other "supertech") receives? If it can be manipulated, to what degree?
Can identity registries be manipulated to falsify papers?
Can individual or VIP locations be determined, along with other personal information?
Can logistics or banks be manipulated, such as stealing KS or redirecting supply shipments into a hacker's hands?
Is PANTHEON omni-potent, or is it possible to not be instantly tagged upon illegal access? (I remember Wes mentioned PANTHEON's nodes were structured like a bureaucracy, so theoretically deception should be possible by "pretending" to be a bureau section, right?)
Can ships be blinded? I remember someone once mentioning some Yamataian ships have some sort of sensor system that can even detect events before they happen...
Can ships be disabled, captured, or have its AI severed from its overseer AI?
The SARP has a large bias against hacking. People are so reliant upon technology that it is in many ways viewed as another way of going for a cheap advantage. It's not going to happen if the GM or the concerned plot feels it'd fulfill something. No one really likes being hacked.
As far as IES units goes, if you have a superior system or superior rights and authority, there is a possibility of being able to take control of an unit with lesser computing power or lesser hiearchy.
A NIWS managed to hack into a Harpy and a Daisy power armor and successfully trigger their self-destruction sequences. Miharu, in turn, relayed itself through a captured Black Spiral scout to seize control of the same NIWS seeing the captured computer was recognized as having a recognized rank higher than the Nodal Integrated Weapon System.
What I learned from the situation when I applied it, though (when I gave my players a chance to have a go at electronic warfare), was that it was a double-edged sword as a GM tool. I've decided not to use it again in the future if I could avoid it.
For the same reasons, you won't find me very receptive to have a Freespacer ship go and hack its way unto my plotship. If I'm not open to it for my plotship, then by extension, most other KFY vessels should share the same 'invulnerability' (since they pretty much have the same kind of hardware) or else it wouldn't make much sense.
So, to answer your question... yes, I think IES computers share the same niche as aether and zesuaium in their, ah, invulnerability to be compromised unless plot demands it.
Yangfan Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:32 am
128-bit encryption is already considered "un-hackable". What makes you think quantum computers will exhibit vulnerabilities at all?
PANTHEON is pretty much the strongest link in the chain on a Yamataian warship. You'd have better luck trying to hack into the captain's brain.
Zakalwe Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:46 am
Quote:
You'd have better luck trying to hack into the captain's brain.
I accept your challenge!
But yes, none of us can really understand programming on this level. The closest thing to hacking I can remember is when two Megami's ripped through Kip on the old Horizon.
MissingNo Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:08 pm
I can recall a particularly amusing attempt at 'hacking' a MEGAMI computer a few years back involving mechandrites and a rather testy sprite.
It ended in failure and a red, hand-shaped mark on the owner of said mechandrites.
All that to say, if you're going to try hacking a SAoY computer, better stay out of arm's reach.
Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:38 pm
How are these nodal bits powered?
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:14 pm
Ambient light? static electricity? Even-smaller-than-femto-scale-aether-generator?
I dunno. Your guess is as good as mine.
Exhack Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:16 pm
It can't be a micro aether generator. I recall Wes saying that Aether taps can't be smaller than a lunchbox, or something.
Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:28 pm
Indeed, Miniature Aether tech was shot down in other tech submissions. Static Electricity would not be a viable power source for something on this scale and solar power would mean the PANTHEON system wouldn't work in the dark.
Edit: I want to know this because if the system has decentralized power it couldn't be sneakily deployed on other worlds. If it requires a centralized power source that distributes energy to the entire system then a power plant facility of sorts would be required to use the system which has different implications for use.
Exhack Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:31 pm
I'm pretty sure null-entropy works on the nano and smaller scale, in the setting, anyway. It's the most plausible thing, aside from an external power sources.
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:31 pm
I was half-joking, you know? ~_^
Yangfan Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:34 pm
Solar powered + battery that recharges via solar power? I don't know. It's just a suggestion. \(
)/
Don't laugh, either. It's how the Mars Rover works, right?
CB Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:42 am
Solar power's one option there.
If anyone's ever read "A Deepness in the Sky" by Vernor Vinge then a similar device (localizers - smart dust essentially) are powered from a central source; essentially the motes nearest the power draw it and then pass it on to the next nearest mote and so on. Something like that is probably the most reliable way to power a decentralised network like this though supplemental energies (like solar) would make it more robust.
Wes Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:31 pm
O9 Taisho (Site Admin)
Gender: Male
Most nodal constructs work by themselves based on their structure and using chemical reactions - when extra power is required, they can work using ambient radiation and magnetic fields.
MissingNo Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:33 am
I understand three of the four power sources you just mentioned: Chemical reactions, radiation, and magnetic fields. But how do they work based on their structure?
Or did you mean to write "...work by themselves based on their structure [by] using chemical reactions...", three energy sources instead of my perceived four?
Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:59 am
This would also seem to imply a huge limit on what the system could do. Ambient energy wouldn't be enough to power many actions and chemical reactions would be like a battery, they would eventually run out of power.
Doshii Jun Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:58 pm
Can't we just say "they just work" for now and phase them out like everything else? Please? This could get ugly if we keep trying to figure it out, and I don't want to see that kind of ugliness again for a long, long time.
Zakalwe Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:19 pm
I second Doshii-Sama on this, we really don't need the agro at the moment.
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:17 pm
They just work.
Andrew Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:29 pm
I agree.
Miss Strangelove Post subject: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:25 pm
Okay, I know the last thing we want at this point is another tech while/rant/flame, etc. But this question has been nagging me for a while. Aether and Zesuaium, while powerful, at least have their properties documented. But as far as I can tell IES and NODAL systems have virtually no references to go on as to their limits or resistances to cyberwarfare. In a recent discussion, a SARP member one described some of the potential things PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems can do. Can anyone confirm which of these are and aren't possible?
Everything NODAL is linked to PANTHEON, thus creating a single giant network. This means all the worlds a Yamataian ship has ever visited could be manipulated via NODAL system. Does it really spread like a plague (metaphorically speaking), or is it merely limited to areas with long-term Yamatai colonization? Is there a limit on what the NODAL system can/can't do? (i.e., if they're in the air, and people breath them in, can the NODAL system merely create metallic sand in the lungs and suffocate said person? Or clog veins? Kill brain cells?)
What are the physical manifestations of PANTHEON nodes? Are they starship computers, or are they planet-based super-mainframe facilities, or simply formed from the millionkajillion fetmobots of the NODAL system floating about?
Can PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems be hacked, ever? I don't just mean in theory, but if this is ever attempted in roleplay will it receive the same OOC prohibition as those who attempt copy-cat Aether/Zesuaium (or other "supertech") receives? If it can be manipulated, to what degree?
Can identity registries be manipulated to falsify papers?
Can individual or VIP locations be determined, along with other personal information?
Can logistics or banks be manipulated, such as stealing KS or redirecting supply shipments into a hacker's hands?
Is PANTHEON omni-potent, or is it possible to not be instantly tagged upon illegal access? (I remember Wes mentioned PANTHEON's nodes were structured like a bureaucracy, so theoretically deception should be possible by "pretending" to be a bureau section, right?)
Can ships be blinded? I remember someone once mentioning some Yamataian ships have some sort of sensor system that can even detect events before they happen...
Can ships be disabled, captured, or have its AI severed from its overseer AI?
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:45 pm
Edited your post a bit Jess. There's no 'PANETHON' - Chris just kept typoing PANTHEON and I guess it stuck with some other people.
I think your questions are going to be best answered by Wes. I've made my own interpretations - but I still somewhat remain at odds with the sensor range -IES computer packages have: they're too powerful and counter intuitive to get along well with me when I GM. ^_^;
Andrew Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:48 pm
I second Fred's motion. This topic is for Wes when he gets back
Wes Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:01 am
O9 Taisho (Site Admin)
Gender: Male
Please PM me a reminder to answer this when I return. I look forward to it.
osakanone Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:37 am
Mmm. This looks like it'll be an exciting thread.
Oh, and Wes, you simply must tell us how the con went.
Miss Strangelove Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:57 pm
Wes wrote:
Please PM me a reminder to answer this when I return. I look forward to it.
Ba-bump for Wes' attention.
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:35 pm
I'm not sure we can expect a Wes reply soon, so, I'll have a go at it.
Miss Strangelove wrote:
Everything NODAL is linked to PANTHEON, thus creating a single giant network. This means all the worlds a Yamataian ship has ever visited could be manipulated via NODAL system. Does it really spread like a plague (metaphorically speaking), or is it merely limited to areas with long-term Yamatai colonization? Is there a limit on what the NODAL system can/can't do? (i.e., if they're in the air, and people breath them in, can the NODAL system merely create metallic sand in the lungs and suffocate said person? Or clog veins? Kill brain cells?)
The nodal system is pretty much established upon the terraforming of a planet. From that point on, it likely expands into a kind of hive mind organism and maintains its nodal population to a certain level. The Nodal system's function was known to have been disturbed by a snowfall on Yamatai itself. I'm fairly certain the density of the nodal system is usually enough so to not be life threatening (except in fabrication rooms, where they work in highly concentrated quantities).
Quote:
What are the physical manifestations of PANTHEON nodes? Are they starship computers, or are they planet-based super-mainframe facilities, or simply formed from the millionkajillion fetmobots of the NODAL system floating about?
I'd venture to say the the femtomachines are likely capable of acting independantly as a swarm, though evidently it makes for a more solid, useful network with extra nodes of greater power added to their numbers: the IES systems and the Empress' Palace 'SYSTEM' are likely candidates for that.
The IES systems are likely the possible birthplaces of PANTHEON networks. Even the AIES, if it had to go to that point.
Quote:
Can PANTHEON/NODAL/IES systems be hacked, ever? I don't just mean in theory, but if this is ever attempted in roleplay will it receive the same OOC prohibition as those who attempt copy-cat Aether/Zesuaium (or other "supertech") receives? If it can be manipulated, to what degree?
Can identity registries be manipulated to falsify papers?
Can individual or VIP locations be determined, along with other personal information?
Can logistics or banks be manipulated, such as stealing KS or redirecting supply shipments into a hacker's hands?
Is PANTHEON omni-potent, or is it possible to not be instantly tagged upon illegal access? (I remember Wes mentioned PANTHEON's nodes were structured like a bureaucracy, so theoretically deception should be possible by "pretending" to be a bureau section, right?)
Can ships be blinded? I remember someone once mentioning some Yamataian ships have some sort of sensor system that can even detect events before they happen...
Can ships be disabled, captured, or have its AI severed from its overseer AI?
The SARP has a large bias against hacking. People are so reliant upon technology that it is in many ways viewed as another way of going for a cheap advantage. It's not going to happen if the GM or the concerned plot feels it'd fulfill something. No one really likes being hacked.
As far as IES units goes, if you have a superior system or superior rights and authority, there is a possibility of being able to take control of an unit with lesser computing power or lesser hiearchy.
A NIWS managed to hack into a Harpy and a Daisy power armor and successfully trigger their self-destruction sequences. Miharu, in turn, relayed itself through a captured Black Spiral scout to seize control of the same NIWS seeing the captured computer was recognized as having a recognized rank higher than the Nodal Integrated Weapon System.
What I learned from the situation when I applied it, though (when I gave my players a chance to have a go at electronic warfare), was that it was a double-edged sword as a GM tool. I've decided not to use it again in the future if I could avoid it.
For the same reasons, you won't find me very receptive to have a Freespacer ship go and hack its way unto my plotship. If I'm not open to it for my plotship, then by extension, most other KFY vessels should share the same 'invulnerability' (since they pretty much have the same kind of hardware) or else it wouldn't make much sense.
So, to answer your question... yes, I think IES computers share the same niche as aether and zesuaium in their, ah, invulnerability to be compromised unless plot demands it.
Yangfan Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:32 am
128-bit encryption is already considered "un-hackable". What makes you think quantum computers will exhibit vulnerabilities at all?
PANTHEON is pretty much the strongest link in the chain on a Yamataian warship. You'd have better luck trying to hack into the captain's brain.
Zakalwe Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:46 am
Quote:
You'd have better luck trying to hack into the captain's brain.
I accept your challenge!
But yes, none of us can really understand programming on this level. The closest thing to hacking I can remember is when two Megami's ripped through Kip on the old Horizon.
MissingNo Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:08 pm
I can recall a particularly amusing attempt at 'hacking' a MEGAMI computer a few years back involving mechandrites and a rather testy sprite.
It ended in failure and a red, hand-shaped mark on the owner of said mechandrites.
All that to say, if you're going to try hacking a SAoY computer, better stay out of arm's reach.
Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:38 pm
How are these nodal bits powered?
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:14 pm
Ambient light? static electricity? Even-smaller-than-femto-scale-aether-generator?
I dunno. Your guess is as good as mine.
Exhack Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:16 pm
It can't be a micro aether generator. I recall Wes saying that Aether taps can't be smaller than a lunchbox, or something.
Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:28 pm
Indeed, Miniature Aether tech was shot down in other tech submissions. Static Electricity would not be a viable power source for something on this scale and solar power would mean the PANTHEON system wouldn't work in the dark.
Edit: I want to know this because if the system has decentralized power it couldn't be sneakily deployed on other worlds. If it requires a centralized power source that distributes energy to the entire system then a power plant facility of sorts would be required to use the system which has different implications for use.
Exhack Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:31 pm
I'm pretty sure null-entropy works on the nano and smaller scale, in the setting, anyway. It's the most plausible thing, aside from an external power sources.
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:31 pm
I was half-joking, you know? ~_^
Yangfan Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:34 pm
Solar powered + battery that recharges via solar power? I don't know. It's just a suggestion. \(
)/Don't laugh, either. It's how the Mars Rover works, right?
CB Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:42 am
Solar power's one option there.
If anyone's ever read "A Deepness in the Sky" by Vernor Vinge then a similar device (localizers - smart dust essentially) are powered from a central source; essentially the motes nearest the power draw it and then pass it on to the next nearest mote and so on. Something like that is probably the most reliable way to power a decentralised network like this though supplemental energies (like solar) would make it more robust.
Wes Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:31 pm
O9 Taisho (Site Admin)
Gender: Male
Most nodal constructs work by themselves based on their structure and using chemical reactions - when extra power is required, they can work using ambient radiation and magnetic fields.
MissingNo Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:33 am
I understand three of the four power sources you just mentioned: Chemical reactions, radiation, and magnetic fields. But how do they work based on their structure?
Or did you mean to write "...work by themselves based on their structure [by] using chemical reactions...", three energy sources instead of my perceived four?
Uso Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:59 am
This would also seem to imply a huge limit on what the system could do. Ambient energy wouldn't be enough to power many actions and chemical reactions would be like a battery, they would eventually run out of power.
Doshii Jun Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:58 pm
Can't we just say "they just work" for now and phase them out like everything else? Please? This could get ugly if we keep trying to figure it out, and I don't want to see that kind of ugliness again for a long, long time.
Zakalwe Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:19 pm
I second Doshii-Sama on this, we really don't need the agro at the moment.
Fred Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:17 pm
They just work.
Andrew Post subject: Re: How do IES systems work?Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:29 pm
I agree.
