[Lazarus] 200 Series Powered Frames

[OsakanOne]

Submission Type: Guideline & Classification
Submission URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=lazarus:200_series

Faction: Various
FM Approved Yet?: N/A
Faction requires art?: N/A

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? Yes (They are not up for review at this time, as clearly defined)
Contains New art?: Yes
Previously Submitted?: No

Notes:
This article is a template – a guideline for the 200 series itself with the purpose of containing redundant information so idiosyncratic and performance information is included in the individual unit articles to reduce complexity. In doing so, approval can be expedited and article length reduced: This article reflects no single unit but rather the general approximate performance of units within the series itself while explaining the history of the platform.

 

[Wes]

I feel like this is going to be another Tarantula, a big overpowered mecha that you basically never see in RP. Osaka keeps trying to advance the tech level of a setting that is already bleeding-edge. Is this what we really want? Yamatai has been mostly out of the tech game for years now. Nepleslia has spent a huge effort on making their unique power armors too. We've reached a point where we have the stuff we want and like. If Nepleslia wanted mecha if would have made them by now. But that's not the vision Yamatai or Nepleslia has for the setting. Things like this unwillingly force me back in the arms race in a reversal of the mellowing out SARP's deliberately done over the years and will only push future tech into being equally insane to keep pace. By being "disruptive" in war technology you're literally disrupting all the other factions and indirectly destroying the usefulness of dozens of other people's work. That's my beef with this.

 

[Rizzo]

I simply believe in my experience that I know better.

You can get on your soapbox that this is arrogant, and condescending... and I'm not even going to shy away from the labels.Rawr, I'm evil.

As a guy who really doesn't care about anything but the tech, I'm just going to throw this out there.
Dude, there wasn't a sentence in there that wasn't arrogant and condescending.
It was beautiful.

I was also going to say that the price per unit would have to be incredibly steep for thing kind of technology. If Mindys are expensive this would be absurdly expensive. You could probably field a hundred Mindys for the price of one.
However, what if these were sold quietly in a very small run. We could have some wicked boss fights.

 

[Koenig808]

To confirm, I actively asked Osaka to design the Nepleslian variant because I wanted to foster greater cooperation between Nepleslia and the Lorath. I have similar plans to ask Yamatai for help in future projects. This mech variant was designed with the input of several prominent voices in the Nepleslian faction, including myself.

Currently, Nepleslia's only mech is the Warbear. While awesome, it is not practical for the SMDIoN.

As Osaka stated, the variant is designed to be a force multiplier for Nepleslian forces, who currently do not have the capacity to churn out large numbers of ground forces, and who rely on overwhelming firepower to achieve victory in a campaign. This mech achieves that goal: overwhelming firepower.

This is not a Power Armor in any sense, nor will it be fielded in the same numbers. A platoon of these deployed at the brigade level are essentially acting as mobile artillery and are also employed in the role of point defense against massive numbers of enemy troops, and are deployed against extremely heavy vehicles should the need arise.

In the same way a Paladin M109 or Russian Tunguska cannot replace tanks or infantry with MANPADS on the ground, this cannot replace the Power Armor, Tanks or Aerospace vehicles that many folks have designed for Nepleslia.

I would also like to add that this variant was conceived as a prototype for Nepleslian testing, with certain design features enhanced or removed depending on need and cost. That will come later through a RP plot that I am attempting to develop. While I cannot say that this won't see actual front line combat, the numbers in which this frame will be deployed as it is purposed will not adversely affect RP in the setting. Sure you have a few heavy hitting machines, but like tanks with infantry or mechanized support, they cannot last.

 

[OsakanOne]

@Fred
I really liked your first post. Aendri says its the best response he's seen in the NTSE in a long time. That its really helpful advice, that isn't sugar-coated and I think he's right. I thought it was really helpful.

I know I'm probably very annoying because I'm forgetful which makes roleplaying hard for me and I'm kind of awkward.
I don't have a lot to get excited about but this keeps me grounded.

Please talk about my work and not me. I won't remember this discussion or this post a few days after this thread is finished and all this is over so I won't even have to forgive you for anything.

I like seeing you as a friend. Even if it means you pity me. What I don't know doesn't hurt me.

Can I have more constructive posts like the first one?

I just want to make this work.

@Wes
Claiming it isn't going to be used... But I'm already collaborating with a decently sized group of players on this thing, aren't I?

It isn't a mecha, either. Its only six meters tall. Too small. Its shorter than most of what I think Origin make and about the same size as one of Exhack's VANDR IIs if I recall.

As far as I can tell (I'm not really sure if I'm right) but the reason its disruptive isn't because it brings anything that's actually new to the table... So much as its lots of ideas from lots of nations all in the same place at the same time, which I don't think we've ever done before.

I like working on this because I like that we're cooperating on something. I got all excited about the international plot but nothing really came of it.

I like the idea of it being scary and fierce but if it makes a mistake, it'd be torn apart. Being strong as a group feels good. But when one of your guys gets hurt (which really has to happen to keep roleplaying interesting) I think the group should support that person too.

The reason we don't get many nations all doing stuff together is because everyone has their own way of doing things and everybody makes their own toys for themselves. I don't really like that. I want all of the people I like all together at the same time. The entire reason its versatile and compatible is so everyone can use the guns they like from their own experiences from their own nations and play how they want to play. You can be scout, heavy, spy, medic, whatever you want to be.

Even if it isn't very often it would still be nice. Even just once would be fine for me.

It would make the time I put into making it worth it, just to do that once.

 

[OsakanOne]

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=lazarus:200_series:guide

Its coming together slowly and I'd like to talk about what sort of things should appear in it.

Am I doing this right?

 

[Moogle]

Note: This is not a Power Armor. Nor is this a mech. Much like how a jeep is not a soldier, nor a tank.

I would just like to say this again, for everybody's benefit that brushed over it the first time.

 

[Zain Snowpaw]

I admit i don't know as much about technological creation as i want to but still i see a couple of problems with this design.

It was pointed out in an earlier post that "It would probably cost the same as fielding 100 mindy's". Unfortunately the way things are in the military those 100 mindy's would probably be a better investment. Nations would not create this sort of technology unless they lacked the manpower to field those lesser units. I mean think about it this way. sure a super unit is all well and good, but a lucky attack or an overwhelming assault on a single point and poof. No more super unit. However those 100 lesser units are much more likely to A) Have a better tactical presence on the battlefield and B) its much harder to kill all 100 of them.

That over, only other thing i can ask is. Is there anything this unit can't do. There seems to be no environment, no battle field that this thing can't fight upon. Some actual limits would lend the idea much more credibility.

However as an avid fan of armoured core i can't help but say, Bravo!

 

[Moogle]

I mean, this also isn't one unit. This is a product line of units. With general specs for the lot of them, and more specific specs in the individual articles.

 

[DocTomoe]

About cost;

The main way in which we can measure 'cost' in regard to these units is the time in which it takes to construct them, in relation to another machine which is comparable. Unit build time is determined by SP, at least at the starship level, and through some maths, can be applied to small craft as well. roughly calculating we can determine that a Mindy takes 15.36 hrs to be built. A current model AMX-102 unit would take one full day to be built. This means, that the AMX-102 is 56% greater cost than a Mindy in regard to time invested.

2 Days = 5 SP thus 1 Days = 2.5 SP. 1 Day and 2.5 SP are now interchangeable.
Mindy = 8 MSP = 1.6 SP (Since 5 MSP = 1 SP)
1.6/2.5=.64
.64 x 24hrs (1 Day = 2.5 SP) = 15.36 Hrs.

AMX-102 = 15 MSP = 3 SP
3/2.5=1.2 x 24hrs=28.8

1 hr = 4.17% of a day
28.8 = 120% of a day
15.36=64% of a day
120.096 - 64.0512 = 56

From this, we can determine that for the cost of 100 AMX-102, 156 Mindy could be fielded. We magnify that to 10,000 AMX-102, then that results in 15600 Mindy. When we start getting to larger and larger numbers, we can really begin to appreciate the cost advantage which the Mindy possesses. However, in small-scale engagements, the AMX series retains a purpose. This comes back down to customer doctrines, and by extension, this would mean Yamataian and Lorath combat doctrines.

Yamatai is an Empire, it can afford to invest in thousands upon thousands of machines to handle business.
The Lorath Matriarchy has the LSDF, a self-defense force, focused on quelling single engagements or short-term campaigns.

This simply means, every tool has a purpose, every user has a different purpose, every user needs a different tool. AMX series units may be of no interest to a Yamataian buyer, however, to another buyer, such as the Lorath, or the Iromakuanhe, the AMX series is a very inviting option; thus why the new product line is very desired by parties outside of the Yamataian playerbase. Especially since the average Nepleslian power armor has a cost comparable to the AMX-Series to begin with, which even further adds to the outside-of-Yamatai interest.

 

[Zain Snowpaw]

Ah, I see. So this unit adresses the concern of a military with inferior manpower but adaquate technology to make each soldier a veritable fortress in and of them selves. That makes sense. I cant help but remember the good old marines of The Open Door. A book i read about a year ago. This seems to have similar connotations. Either way I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Rizzo]

Time and labor is a price of its own. Parts, materials, technology all cost money.

 

[OsakanOne]

Feedback on the guide?

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=lazarus:200_series:guide

Early stages but tell me if I'm using the right kind of language, answering the questions that need answering and all those wonderful unfathomables.

 

[Fred]

I've skimmed thorugh it, stopped here and there at specific spots to read more in-dept.

And what I've seen has me compelled to say that an user guide is not the same as an instruction manual; and the latter one is really what this feels the most like. What you're writing ought to be a presentation of the unit in a very summarized form so that someone can skim over one page, and get to know pretty much all the basics that there are to know on operating such a unit, or inserting them in their plots.

As is, I'm not finding it to be very concise. Don't forget that you can actually link to somewhere with more indept detail too.

I'll lift some parts of the beginning as an example:

Introduction
While the 200 series might seem like a major headache, it is written to be quite surprisingly easy to use. Providing you're aware of a few basic things while the unit is in operation and you cooperate with your GM, you'll get along just fine.

Essentially useless. There's not much point in saying the obvious. You want to shorten where you can so to not intimidate with the amount of text... and this makes an introduction after an introduction really redundant.

Basic Control
Each system can be used in a host of different ways, opening up lots of options to players.

The backbone of this is the recognition system which works in three steps:

1. What do I want? Intention: The system is working out what your goal is on an action to action level.
   • Eg: Carrying an egg in a spoon
2. What don't I want? Intrusive thought: Outcomes you want to avoid.
   • Eg: Dropping the egg, tripping over, falling over
3. To do what, when? Anticipation: To anticipate an action and have your response already planned.
   • Eg: 'Well, I think they're going to do this. When they do, I want to do this'

While this might not make sense within the scope of this guide, its worth keeping these things in mind:

That the player is telling the frame what to do – and the frame is working out how to do it. This means if your character has poor marksmanship skills, that doesn't matter. However, if one were sword-fighting (as an abstract example) knowing where you want the blade to be will be the response, rather than any careful measure of hand-movements.

That is? You could fire a gun from one hand with high recoil and carry the egg and spoon in the other: The system has already estimated how to deal with the shock of the recoil and is not going to drop the egg. You only tell it what you want to hit and that you don't want to drop the egg.

Because of this, person-like full body-language tends to bleed through the system into subtle mannerisms, postures and even physical configurations which might be worth noting in roleplay.

Importantly, a pilot's greatest asset is keeping stock of what is happening and their ability to keep their cool: Pilots who are overly passionate may be prone to flights of fancy. For this reason, a MASTER-ARM switch is included on the hand-controls to prevent misfires; for weapons to be live, MASTER-ARM must be set to ON.

Honestly, what I found the most useful is all of that was:

"That the player is telling the frame what to do – and the frame is working out how to do it. This means if your character has poor marksmanship skills, that doesn't matter. However, if one were sword-fighting (as an abstract example) knowing where you want the blade to be will be the response, rather than any careful measure of hand-movements."

and "Because of this, person-like full body-language tends to bleed through the system into subtle mannerisms, postures and even physical configurations which might be worth noting in roleplay. "

There was "For this reason, a MASTER-ARM switch is included on the hand-controls to prevent misfires; for weapons to be live, MASTER-ARM must be set to ON." which did sound useful, but it feels more indept and technical, which is something I'd relegate to the original more-indept article.

The rest pretty much bored me. It was fat that I had to sift through to get to the 'good stuff'.

You're making an effort at presentation, but don't forget that the effort of doing so shouldn't defeat the original purpose, which was 'accessible information'. I do think your examples as inserted are good, but I'd also recommend in entering any quirk-like information in the machine in the examples. The examples are the prime way to demonstrate how to roleplay with said machine - use them to say what you can't say at the same time as the jargon. Keep the repetitions to a minimum.

Introduce things, but don't explain them again overlong a second time when you've already written similar details elsewhere. You want to inform, and facilitate interest in the deeper things you've worked on, but at the same time not turn off other people or bore them. For instance, I think you've got waay too much detail going on in your possible locomotion sections, especially considering how the Mindy does that all in a single paragraph - and makes it work.

 

[Rizzo]

Personally, I've always believed that the more information there is, the easier it is to use. If people get bored with reading something I don't think that's a problem with the writer. When RPing, multiple people must be able to read info the same way. Example:

"Why are you crying?" Mr. A said to Mr. B, "get up."

Was Mr. A being rude, sincere, indifferent? Who knows, there was no real info on that. It was easy to read but the next writer can respond as if Mr. A is being a jerk or as if he's being nice or any other way he can think of.
I like a wealth of information when I write. It makes things flow smoothly and enjoyably, even if nobody likes Mr. A.

I can read her descriptions of the 200 Series and understand the premise of the unit perfectly. Its kinda like a little Armored Core.

 

[Fred]

Excellent. Then I'm sure you'll have no problem with Osaka's original articles.

 

[Rizzo]

I know. The thing is that I'm nothing special and yet it seems like I'm the only one who thinks the original write up is fine. In fact, I'd like to see a more thorough description that has data about its operation temps, pressures, maintenance, ect. But that wouldn't be fair as not everyone has attended engineering classes.

Why nitpick? This is an A+ write up if I'd ever seen one. With information, wouldn't you rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it?
You don't even have to really read the details to get the principle and if it doesn't interest a writer than they're not going to use it anyway.
Forcing her to make a completely different write up seems completely useless IMO. Either we care about tech or we don't. If we don't care about tech this type of thread really shouldn't even matter. Why make her jump through hoops to support poor reading habits? It doesn't make sense unless there's an ulterior motive behind the scenes.

 

[Fred]

Also:
-Your premise of the units being substantially superior is not something that has been accepted by the rest of the setting, and should be a consequence of IC events showing this to be the case. While I can see it as being a superior unit to the Winter and iteratively an improvement, you have a reputation as a notorious powergamer that makes any discourse of superiority or revolutionary design as being warning signs.

In a nutshell, this is my view on it: layers upon layers of very well thought-out technobabble do not motivate or excuse superiority.

[...]Osaka keeps trying to advance the tech level of a setting that is already bleeding-edge. Is this what we really want? Yamatai has been mostly out of the tech game for years now. Nepleslia has spent a huge effort on making their unique power armors too. We've reached a point where we have the stuff we want and like. [...] Things like this unwillingly force me back in the arms race in a reversal of the mellowing out SARP's deliberately done over the years and will only push future tech into being equally insane to keep pace. By being "disruptive" in war technology you're literally disrupting all the other factions and indirectly destroying the usefulness of dozens of other people's work. That's my beef with this.

I think the above quotes should put things back into perspective. Now, OsakanOne invited critique and has acted positively about it. I don't think it ought to be recommended into the setting, but my posting here alone means that I'm actually bothering to give a damn about it. Calling what I'm doing 'nitpicking' is pretty much an invitation for me to take a step back and watch this spiral into however it'll end up.

You want ulterior motives, though?

[...]I brought the niche of 5-8 meter machines with me and now I'm here to cement it: Big enough to be cool as fug: Small enough to be easy on the environment. (◡‿◡✿)

If there's any line of thinking I'm personally compelled to counter, it's this. This 'cementing'. In Wes' setting, technological miniaturization is such that power armor are in general the prevalent unit, retaining an edge that tanks/fightercraft/larger mecha don't quite share. It's a creator's vision of focus points in the setting, and I think it should be respected. Though Moogle has been quick to point out (and repeat) this wasn't a power armor, the 200s reason for being involved a lot of forethought into one-upping one machine in particular: Yamatai's Mindy. There's a healthy amount of powergaming there (powergaming per se is fine in moderation), and this moves some to justifiable caution.

But mostly just the cementing because I really don't mind the mental images evoked through Koenig's words. Nor am I against having large mecha around which can serve as 'boss-style' encounters. I've done this before - you aren't the only one to have seen that value. However, there hasn't been much for me to intervene about in that respect; what itches me the most is the widespread deployment that's attached to this unit, but with Koenig already all for it as Nepleslian GM... there's nothing else for me to do about that but shut up. Out of anyone whom posted in this thread, his endorsement has likely been the strongest bit of support Osaka has received because it reinforces that maybe this thing has a place in the setting, and that it can be accomodated to Wes' vision; it moved this beyond question from "Lorath vs. Yamatai" tech concern to a "Is Lazarus that good a manufacturer/arms race" concern.

You have no idea how this little bit of subtlety improved things. It possibly slates the 200 series as a symbolic piece of equipment that makes the recent alliance between Yamatai-Nepleslia-Lor perhaps something that's more than just for show.

But, eh, on to more ulterior motives:

Maybe I have a personnal stake because Osaka's thing shares quirks with what I'm making? Well, this is one instance where I actually agree with Moogle's claim. What I'm making, the M15 Kishi, mostly sits inbetween the M6 Daisy and the M7 Sarah. It's meant as a very good anti-armor unit, but it's far more orientated at being anti-mishhuvurthyar. There's a lot about the Kishi which is about granting players certain assets and possibilities that I feel work well with my type of GMing and the kind of situation I'd like them to face (or how to bounce from them when they are difficult). I'm not overly worried about how competitive the M15 might be with the 200 series because - again - I see the value of the 200 as a boss encounter and see it in that light. Bosses are powerful, and I usually want them taken down by teamwork over individual heroics.

There. That's been laid bare. So maybe the talk about conspiracy theories can be put to rest.

What's really involved here is accessibility. Which I think isn't high because OsakanOne probably wrote this with the mindset of "this is the kind of unit I'd love to RP with" - which fits a narrow margin of people (that happen to include you) - I can tell Osaka is in love with her submission, but being in love with something blinds you to a lot of other factors which can instead appear ungainly and awkward from other perspective (which is actually what I think it is - tons of effort doesn't mean getting an A+ in the end; fortunately, Osaka seems wise enough to realize it too). If the unit is going to become more widespread, as it clearly seems to be intended to, then it needs to hit a higher bar of quality, focus less on justifying power and make the submission easier to grasp in a fashion in which it's current length simply seems intimidating.

In this instance, the keywords "Less is More" very strongly apply.

 

[OsakanOne]

>Superior superior
Could you point out the language in question?

Technically it has to be really good because we're not making many of it: Lor isn't a huge star empire. Pilots aren't available in massive numbers. Lor lacks the man-power to field a lot of something so they make up for it with quality. Quality takes longer to build. Costs more money.

It has to be superior to be competitive.

And why is the Mindy the baseline? Because the Mindy is the baseline everybody compares everything else against. Its the red-line everybody compares everything else to on this scale. It is point in space of performance almost everyone is familiar with that everybody recognises.

You're beating me up for being difficult to read? Boom.

Even better, doesn't it make sense that something which weighs about 8 to 16 times more than a Mindy that takes about twice as long, to build, costs four times more, should be substantially better?

>Which I think isn't high because OsakanOne probably wrote this with the mindset of "this is the kind of unit I'd love to RP with"
>We've reached a point where we have the stuff we want and like



Yeah. Okay. So these people aren't interested at all.

>What's really involved here is accessibility.
Then stop trying to help me and help me. Ask questions. I'll answer them. Be direct. I need guidance. That's why I'm here, isn't it?
I'm trying to gauge out of thin air what problems you're having. Alchemy has never been my strong suit and I'm a mind-reader either.

If you just read the full article, I don't think you'd even be asking these questions.
You might be complaining about length, but you know what?

Better to write the whole damn thing and not miss anything important out than to try and produce something spartan, limping and sorely lacking in the oh-so important details. Unless you're asking questions, all I can do is clarify on what's already there:

The reason the details you want aren't there is because I didn't know you wanted them there. Until you tell me you want them there, I have no way of knowing. You're going to have to be specific.​

If its too long for you and you didn't read it, just say so: When the thing is actively used in role-play and specific variants come out, it'll look like the templates do for every other thing ever with nice neat easy short inoffensive articles.

This isn't a machine. Its a guideline for building a machine. A set of operational boundaries and suggestions.

THIS is what a machine looks like. This is the kind of page roleplayers will be dealing with specifically. Lots of pictures. Lots of simple explanations. The template/guide page I've got is specifically for GMs and people who are interested in making their own units.

You complain this makes people shoot off in all directions clicking all over the place to understand something. What's wrong with inventing the wheel before you invent the cart or discovering the horse before you invent the saddle? That's natural progression.

>Rwar conspiracy!
Why are you even bringing this up? This isn't remotely relevant to the discussion. I'm only interested in getting this thing ship shape.

 

[Wes]

You're impossible, Osaka. People have given you guidance for most of this thread. Let's summarize:

1. People like power armor in the setting and your attempting to push mecha as the new standard is unwelcome by some of us
2. Because it's full of complex jargon (not because it's long), your article is difficult to read.
3. The submission looks like it'd be overpowered.
4. Your attitude is not helping.

In any case, I'd like to end this thread soon. It's starting to cause drama and it doesn't seem to be headed anywhere useful. Maybe we should do a poll or something.

 

[Rizzo]

Ironically, she doesn't seem to have half the attitude about this as I'm having. If people would just read each of the subheadings and just skim the rest for key words they'd be amazed just how simple it really is.

@Fred
Which I think isn't high because OsakanOne probably wrote this with the mindset of "this is the kind of unit I'd love to RP with" - which fits a narrow margin of people (that happen to include you)
I'd like to point out that I am not in that narrow margin, I'm not even on that list Osaka posted. In fact, the RP I'm going to be hosting soon isn't even going to have PAs for the first ten missions if at all. So no, I'm not in her clique. I haven't been asked to help her. I'm not a part of the project. I was just passing by the situation. From what I know from your second to last post I can safely assume that your response will be something like:
If your not involved why don't you just walk away?
Because pretty soon I'll have to get something submitted and based on what I'm seeing in this thread I don't feel comfortable with the 'help' of other writers who's complaint is literally, sadly NOT EVEN RELATED TO THE TECH!!!