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[Lazarus] 200 Series Powered Frames

OsakanOne

OsakanOne

Inactive Member
Retired Member
Submission Type: Guideline & Classification
Submission URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=lazarus:200_series

Faction: Various
FM Approved Yet?: N/A
Faction requires art?: N/A

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? Yes (They are not up for review at this time, as clearly defined)
Contains New art?: Yes
Previously Submitted?: No

Notes:
This article is a template – a guideline for the 200 series itself with the purpose of containing redundant information so idiosyncratic and performance information is included in the individual unit articles to reduce complexity. In doing so, approval can be expedited and article length reduced: This article reflects no single unit but rather the general approximate performance of units within the series itself while explaining the history of the platform.
 
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@OsakanOne Why is the conversation being scattered? Because Rizzo is interfering and making it go in directions it doesn't need to. Oddly enough, my last post heaped a lot of praise and optimism in your concept. I guess somehow you didn't see it, or can't appreciate it.

I'm trying to gauge out of thin air what problems you're having. Alchemy has never been my strong suit and I'm a mind-reader either.
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Again, Rizzo. It's just not effective to go and write something, and be countered with constant "but I think it's fine" that actually bring very little that's constructive to the conversation. If I didn't need to waste my time on that, I could actually have the time to delve into it deeper and reread a lot of stuff I've already read and think more about implications and presentations for you. This isn't my submission, dammit. I shouldn't have to take responsibility for it, and here I am doing exactly that.

>Rwar conspiracy!
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Why are you even bringing this up? This isn't remotely relevant to the discussion. I'm only interested in getting this thing ship shape.
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Because, Rizzo. I'm coming clean on stuff he's implying. Appreciate the honesty, dammit. I don't have to take the time to write this stuff.

Jargon
The problem here is more the stigma you've accured overtime than anything else. Basically, we're given something very convoluted to judge if we want in the setting or not and the reaction is: "Okay, where's the catch?"

THIS is what a machine looks like. This is the kind of page roleplayers will be dealing with specifically. Lots of pictures. Lots of simple explanations. The template/guide page I've got is specifically for GMs and people who are interested in making their own units.
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Why is this my first time seeing this pushed to the fore? This is actually not so bad - the thing that bothers me the most about it at first glance is the placeholder pictures. It's look-wise not my style of mecha, but I can see why people would think it'd be cool. I haven't delved in it too much, but it seems like an okay page (with hefty paragraphs, but still okay). I really like that there are lots of pictures.

Okay, time to reorient this conversation.
@Wes
The original article Osaka submitted isn't a submission per se, and more like a technical manual for units he intends to build on a certain basis. It has more to do with the NH-7's document than an actual wiki entry. By itself, the NH-7 document would be an awful wiki page because it packs waaaaaay too much detail, but it's a cool thing to read if you actually play a neko and want more indept information on how an earlier model kind of worked. I'd judge the 200-series the same way.

Meaning, essentially, that as long as all the pieces of technology included in the Decimator are approved that there should be much less problem approving the Decimator itself.

Meaning, @OsakanOne ...that you're going to have to allow us to have a bit of tunnel vision. You took this:
>Which I think isn't high because OsakanOne probably wrote this with the mindset of "this is the kind of unit I'd love to RP with"
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out of context, but even with the 'long' list of people (which I don't actually think it means a lot, but it was kind of beyond the point I was making anyways), I did not think that your 200-series article was well adapted to a wider audience. I still don't, but that's because you have a stepping stone missing - that's what I now think. I think the Decimator serves as that, because it should've been what was submitted in the first place, with the unit, after approval, receiving another article who'se purpose was to go over all the gritty details.

I still think the 200-series article is really convoluted, but I'm kind of okay with that if it's meant to be some bible and not the common point of reference for roleplayers and GMs alike. It's not like the NH-7 text is really any better. The way I see it, the moment the Decimator is approved, this 200-series article is just as good as insta-approved (because I could be blamed about reading comprehension, but I am reading, dammit. I'm doing this instead of boiling tons of armor of some mech in front of my crosshairs in Mechwarrior Online, or getting more sleep). Now, the question is: do I talk about the Decimator here, or does the Decimator get its own thread?

In either case, if you find yourself with some idle time, I'd like to see: a paintover of the Decimator; less placeholder pictures. Why? Because I'm interested in seeing more.
 
I'm still modelling a lot of the body. I have a lot of shots but its all coming in slowly.

They're mostly present because I want to know the stats and sizings of components before I start modelling them.

What's a paint-over?

The Decimator itself is one thing produced FROM the template.
The template/200 series article is a product-line, not a product. I know you want to see actual products but I want to get the line approved first to streamline the process so I'm not approving the same stuff over and over again. It is literally like a big tub full of parts:
  • Here are all the lego pieces you have to begin with.
  • This is how they behave.
  • This is where and why they are used.
  • If you build your thing with this in mind, you have to nerf it in this way to keep it balanced.
There's also this, which is due a huge amount of overhaul and modification.
Following those two, there's a SAOY version in development - the Jessica.
 
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I don't give FM approval for a Yamatai version. This could be reconsidered later, but for now there's zero interest in making any ties to Lazarus.
 
A paint over is you grabbing one of your 3d renders and bringing it to Photoshop (or whichever) where you... paint over to give a rough idea of what it'd ideally look like beyond the greybox stage.
 
I lost my stylus in the recent move about a month or so ago. I'm moving house again shortly and haven't had time to setup a work station.

Its going to be a while before I can do that.

Wes said:
I don't give FM approval for a Yamatai version. This could be reconsidered later, but for now there's zero interest in making any ties to Lazarus.
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How come?
 
Because Yamatai isn't going to rely on or trust a company that hides in the shadows and answers to no government. Lazarus isn't a real company with facilities, leaders, publicity, and a nation whose laws it operates within. They're a secretive cell of technology terrorists that no legitimate business should ever consider touching.
 
That's probably an idea that formed back when you needed to have Lazarus split away from the YSE and be based with the Lorath... and has endured since then. I don't remember the specifics, but I'm fairly sure it's the root of the impression Wes has.

I wouldn't be too concerned on Wes' factional approval, though. Frankly, if you've already got Lor and Nepleslia in and that the unit, once fielded, succeeds... Wes may just have to revise his standing if standoffishness means that Nepleslia and Lor fields the better units. Wes did mention "at this time", meaning that he can change his mind later. Just work with that for now.

Mind you, better does not mean superior... but rather how well it ends up being used by players (hence how I stress accessibility - SARP doesn't need stronger machines, but it needs better written machines; unfortunately, the 'better' here is very subtle because it mostly means reader/user-friendly)... and this thing has way too much effort written into it to just be a background mobile artillery piece not used by players, despite the assurances to the contrary some have raised. If this unit is as good to employ by roleplayers, then its performance will speak for itself (in the same way the M6 Daisy's simplicity and ruggedness was demonstrated and made it become widespread). He may feel threatened by an arms race, but you are offering him the opportunity to even up from the get go.

I'm not saying I find it desirable to push boundaries, and the 200-series does that. It's certainly not conservative. I'd say more, but that should be reserved to talking about the Decimator. What I said before about the benefits of tunnel vision here still holds. Osaka/Wes have not answered my question if they wants it dealt here, or in its own thread. But I think the Decimator should be the next order of business to discuss. I explained myself already as to why it might be better. I'm not going to repeat myself.

This can happen. At least, as long as OsakanOne is amenable to the process.
 
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Sure sure. The big reason Yamatai's upset is because the centrifuge allows access to what were formerly believed to be 'secret technologies' and because the company isn't against selling equipment to whoever's willing to buy it.

While I personally disagree on every level with libertarianism, my characters -- and thus the group, don't.

The backbone of this choice ICly was a massive portion of the civilian population of Lor and many other smaller backwater places were utterly sick to their teeth of having to rely on Yamatai to come running to their defence. The public were sick of Yamatai saying "either you bow down to us and we defend you or you're obviously with them if you think you can assume a neutral standpoint". Worse, the threat was an extranational threat they hadn't even picked a fight with to begin with -- so they blamed Yamatai for this new problem, since they rocked the boat and brought the threat home to begin with, as if they may as well have been the ones attacking. This was further intensified by the bitterness of peoples who were re-integrated into Yamatai following the fall of the UOC -- which conspiracy theories still float around about.

The conclusion was to sell equipment to anyone anywhere to had the money. In democratising deadly force, nobody had to rely on Yamatai's monopoly of force.

Independence is important to a lot of people and one of the consortium's founding principles.

If we are to make this work, they have to be satisfied, not just Yamatai.

There isn't really much preventing the consortium from scrapping plans for the kit it had intended for the SAOY and just selling it to pirates or even instigating a proxy war for the purpose of making money other than a small majority who believe that would be a bad idea. A subtle shift in the membership and that could change overnight. Given the anonymous nature of the group, I'm surprised Yamatai haven't tried to investigate or gain entry.

The closest thing they've managed is a SAINT operative capturing the familiar of a member who unfortunately doesn't know anything, but could serve as a bargaining tool.
 
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Like I said: Yamatai has its own reputation that makes people second-guess them a lot. At least with Lazarus you know you're getting what you asked for and that nobody will ask questions.

Lots of civilians in the setting still view the clans of Yamatai as violent power-grabbing cut-throat terrorists themselves, no matter how they conduct or represent themselves, akin to policy makers IRL. Ask any Nepleslian if they would want to live on Yamatai.

The sentiment is simmering down but moonfall proved to the people they can't be everywhere at once to fight their battles, the collapse and re-integration of the UOC proved to the people how ruthless they were and the great-lighthouse proved to the people they have no regard for the common man, almost wiping out an entire species because of a select few people were thought to be there, who were not.

And yet in spite of that, the consortium is still willing to move on. What happened happened: the consortium doesn't care about what has happened, they only care about what can and is going to happen.
 
I'll pass. Got bruised enough for this before, I don't feel like having an encore.

If there are people that care enough to see this approved, or non-approved, let them speak up. I don't anymore.
 
I'm not NTSE so I don't really have a say in what happens but I've read over the article and this thread some. And first I'd like to say I have not read either entirely I've skimmed, so I wont claim to have comprehensive knowledge of either. Also I will not make any statements about who is right or wrong or who said what, I will just be making statements in relation to the -discussion- as if it were one entity. So yeah on with what I wanted to say;

Personally I do not feel that popularity is a matter that should be brought into consideration at all. Everyone when they make something for a setting with as much tech as SARP runs the risk of their item never being used ever. That's just part of the deal when you submit something. So whether it is or isn't popular is a matter of 'marketing'. Granted yes as said user read comprehension should be taken into account as this is a place that survives by it's multitude of users but that's where I believe opinion should stop.

It doesn't matter if it's a mecha or a PA, or a tank, it's the 200 Series Powered frame. (Which by the way Powered Frames are mentioned in a wiki article discussing the nature of power armor so I don't think they're not allowed) What should matter is whether or not the technology is feasible in the setting and whether or not it breaks any rules. I'm not certain but it looks like Osaka might be the person in charge of Lazarus tech? So it's not like the FM for Lazarus' approval is needed.

I'll leave out my opinions on how I think of the system itself, but as a submission I do see the reasoning for making the article more 'user friendly' that is fine. But as an 'idea guy' myself who likes to create competition for ideas others make as a way of matching wits, I feel it would be a shame if this submission got ignored. Now that it's been quite is the perfect time to come back and get back on track, with whether or not it's fair, and possible in the setting, and if the article is user friendly enough as the only focuses.

This is a sci-fi RP, Sci-fi means technology, technology itself is advancement. So regardless of what anyone does eventually things like the Mindy which originally showed up in YE25 I believe, and has constantly been upgraded to meet with new standards will eventually get beat. Either either or it will have to be rebuilt from the ground up, at which point it'd only be Mindy in name. If such a thing doesn't happen then that's kind of curbing the natural flow of technology and defeats the purpose of even having multiple companies really. Competition breeds better results, that's just what it is. And multiple companies is competition.
 
clam yo tits. It'll be done when its done. Right now, it isn't done. The board has spoken and I don't disagree with them.

You haven't been here long enough to really know what they mean what they say -- and I say that in the nicest possible way. We have standards to maintain and my work here clearly doesn't meet those standards. That means its either unfinnished or unsalvagable.

Contemplating shitwashing this submission then introducing specific models THEN adding a page explaining their commonalities AFTERWARDS.

What thinks you, sarp?
 
Years Osaka, years. This project started when you were still wearing a pretty sweet leather jacket, and had some really neat wallpaper in your room. My opinion is do whatever you need to do to make it done, then start over again because its already dated, and next time get the lead out.

In all seriousness though, salvage this thing, make a base model out of it like you did with the AMX-101 and 102 models. Later editions can be refinements, and you can have the core work already done, the stuff that you put so many years into need not be wasted. Refinement models which come later can be show-pieces and upgrades to patch any issues which arise during service.

Besides, the market has changed, and it needs to be adapted for it.
 
Alright, moving this to a direction of releasing individual models rather than trying to introduce some overarching standard that could frighten off tech-GMs with legalese, loopholes and potential abuse related headaches.

In light of this experience, I'll be releasing the Winter II, Sunshine and Decimator separately then trying an article like this posthumously.

I concede this submission.
 
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