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Mecha in SAoY
- Thread starter ShotJon
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Fred
Retired Staff
The Tasha is probably as close as it gets. And yeah, we don't read about it all that often. They kind of go against setting narrative.
The only example I can think of a GM whom has successfully gone against grain on a consistent basis is Nashoba with his fightercraft plot. Before that, the Mindy mostly held the role left to space superiority unit. Thanks to his sustained and constructive effort, it's now more feasible to introduce fightercraft elsewhere in the setting, if for the simple reason that we've an example that it works and works well.
That, however, does not make them common. Showcasing them has now become mostly a matter of GMing inclination. There's still not much of that.
Mecha prevalence in SARP faces mostly the same uphill climb, and if not maintained presently stands as equally ephemereal.
The only example I can think of a GM whom has successfully gone against grain on a consistent basis is Nashoba with his fightercraft plot. Before that, the Mindy mostly held the role left to space superiority unit. Thanks to his sustained and constructive effort, it's now more feasible to introduce fightercraft elsewhere in the setting, if for the simple reason that we've an example that it works and works well.
That, however, does not make them common. Showcasing them has now become mostly a matter of GMing inclination. There's still not much of that.
Mecha prevalence in SARP faces mostly the same uphill climb, and if not maintained presently stands as equally ephemereal.
ShotJon
Well-Known Member
Well yeah I was part of Nashoba's fighter plot and even though players were only in fighter, in one assault we had NPC allies who piloted Origin mecha and they were SAoY. So it did happen. What i am asking why can't we have more of it? I mean this is mecha we are talking about. CadetNewb and Kai made ton of awesome cool mecha from origin and there like no one to use it, but SAoY could use it easily. Tasha is one thing, but Platoon of Daisies with Asura unit as heavy support would go great ways in my opinion. Plus it would give more options to players I think.
The Tasha isn't part of any standard unit type though, it's just sort of attached as an extra to regular units (e.g. infantry units like a Century). Even the Star Army's tanks are treated this way currently (the Star Army has infantry units that happen to have tanks, but there's no tank units in the Star Army's organizational structure). I imagine mecha would be treated the same way if there was a reason to use them (and I'm not convinced there is).
But currently the only mecha in regular use by the Star Army is the construction mecha that each Century has, which is used to move around containers, modules, and to dig fortifications.
The Origin stuff, both their ships and mecha, has always been presented as a sort of trial or test program, that the Star Army is playing around with, and ultimately doesn't approve of. Ever since Origin decided it was going to avoid calling itself Yamataian, the Star Army has been blackballing it anyway and stopped buying Origin products whereever possible and this continues to this day.
Also, fighters were not "against the grain," they were fully supported and I helped push for them myself.
But currently the only mecha in regular use by the Star Army is the construction mecha that each Century has, which is used to move around containers, modules, and to dig fortifications.
The Origin stuff, both their ships and mecha, has always been presented as a sort of trial or test program, that the Star Army is playing around with, and ultimately doesn't approve of. Ever since Origin decided it was going to avoid calling itself Yamataian, the Star Army has been blackballing it anyway and stopped buying Origin products whereever possible and this continues to this day.
Also, fighters were not "against the grain," they were fully supported and I helped push for them myself.
ShotJon
Well-Known Member
Reason to use mecha? How about that they are really awesome. And yes some Origin stuff like current M3 Gekido is very much on test run, but for example Asura is a finished product as far as i know. Let's tag in @CadetNewb and @Kai so they can throw in their penny as well. But I think this would be another gun thing to increase general fun ratio for players in Yamataian army. There is no reason for PA soldier not to know how to pilot frame in a same way, some PA troops are trained to command Tasha, so the GM could have a frame units on their ship and should the current mission allow it, give players chance to go all our and awesome. I know we have setting rules, but rule of cool must never be forgotten as well.
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry ShotJon, but it's clear that something else is going on that's keeping the Star Army from using mechs besides issues such as how fun they would be for players in role play.
Wes, in regards to whatever way that it's offended you, I'm sorry. I'm very sorry. For us, it wasn't a big deal to get Origin into the position it is now. As far as we were concerned, it was the same as going international so that the stuff would reach a broader audience. In fact, the opposition we faced to have the simple move done made absolutely no sense to us whatsoever, and still doesn't to this day. The purpose was to have players and GMs think, "Oh, Origin stuff isn't for Yamatai, it's for everybody!" That's all we wanted. For everyone to share what we've made. But it's very clear now that for you, this move was something much more, and that it is something that has hurt you. I don't understand it, but for what it's worth, I am very, very sorry that you feel slighted to the point that anything that has to do with Origin is considered blacklisted. Labeled as being otherwise completely off the table and unacceptable for Star Army use. Because for a decision of that seriousness to be made, the offense must have been absolutely major, and it was never, ever, ever our intent to cause you harm to that degree.
That is why I am very, very, very sorry we have somehow caused you offense or harm.
Wes, in regards to whatever way that it's offended you, I'm sorry. I'm very sorry. For us, it wasn't a big deal to get Origin into the position it is now. As far as we were concerned, it was the same as going international so that the stuff would reach a broader audience. In fact, the opposition we faced to have the simple move done made absolutely no sense to us whatsoever, and still doesn't to this day. The purpose was to have players and GMs think, "Oh, Origin stuff isn't for Yamatai, it's for everybody!" That's all we wanted. For everyone to share what we've made. But it's very clear now that for you, this move was something much more, and that it is something that has hurt you. I don't understand it, but for what it's worth, I am very, very sorry that you feel slighted to the point that anything that has to do with Origin is considered blacklisted. Labeled as being otherwise completely off the table and unacceptable for Star Army use. Because for a decision of that seriousness to be made, the offense must have been absolutely major, and it was never, ever, ever our intent to cause you harm to that degree.
That is why I am very, very, very sorry we have somehow caused you offense or harm.
ShotJon
Well-Known Member
Hmm I still see a way to fix this really. International company can still make a product that is a for a single country, especially with military equipment, so there is no reason that the only military that would buy Asura from Origin would be Yamatai and all would be kosher. Origin can still sell their toilet paper to everyone, but they can also make stuff for just one country. I believe Origin did it before iwth Blackjack ships for Nepleslian navy, or Gauss rifles for yamataian 5th fleet. After all Origin is company.
The issue is not who can make them. It is which forces want to use them. Yamatai prefers using power armor. A single Mindy or Daisy makes a soldier the equivalent of 20th century tank. But the bigger issue is if a group has mecha, then their aggressors need them. Our it is a turkey shoot.
When it comes to fighting against mecha, Yamatai's doctrine is to kill the mecha with air support or starship guns from above. Preferably we'd have some sort of gunship for this (I'm looking for designs, as well as ones for a troop transport) but for now the idea is that every 20 soldiers should get a starfighter flying over them, shooting at stuff for them.
Neither of which are a good option when the fight is taken into areas where airsupport and orbital bombardment aren't festible, such as underground or within an urban enviroment where civilian casualties are unacceptable. Which is why a ground unit that can counter a mecha would be ideal, either in the form of a vehicle or even an infantry based weaponry (for example, during WW2, infantry had weaponry that was good for use against armoured vehicles and there had been points where just 'those' infantry units were successful in stopping tanks from advancing.)
Syaoran
Retired Staff
I always found that weird. Why are Mecha and PA on the same damage scale? I mean there is no way you can put as much armor on a PA as on a Mecha, simply because of size. And if you use the same exact tech to build a weapon for a PA and a Mecha, the Mecha one should naturally be stronger because just plain larger size. (larger calibur rounds and such) So why did they end up on the same scale?
Edit: Typo fixed
Edit: Typo fixed
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Yamataian and Nepleslian power armor are meant to take on a range of threats -- including mecha. That's why they are armed (and armored) as well as they are.
Mecha perform no important task better or less expensively than power armor or starfighters, at least for the SAoY (and the SMoN, if I recall). There isn't a gap for them, except with construction.
Mecha perform no important task better or less expensively than power armor or starfighters, at least for the SAoY (and the SMoN, if I recall). There isn't a gap for them, except with construction.
Syaoran
Retired Staff
Well I know statistically they're the same. I'm just saying that it seems weird that something twice the size or larger for some reason has the same amount of armor as something. I mean I know "that's how it is here" but I'm wondering why it's like that, why mecha were essentially pushed into a 'useless' area by making them more costly than PA and fighters, but not more effective.
Rough guess: miniaturization has something to do with it (you don't need something as big as a mecha to accomplish most "modern" military tasks).
As well, you're talking about militaries very much used to fielding squads of armored soldiers. Especially Yamatai, which fielded billions of its original LAMIA.
OOC history factors in too -- we used to have the Macross-clone variable starfighter, but Bubblegum Crisis power armor is much more individual and "portable". That is to say, you can fit PA in more settings (mecha's too big to fit in some planetary or starship settings, for instance).
In play, they don't have to be treated the same. A mecha IS more powerful, it just isn't so much more powerful as to be more practical.
As well, you're talking about militaries very much used to fielding squads of armored soldiers. Especially Yamatai, which fielded billions of its original LAMIA.
OOC history factors in too -- we used to have the Macross-clone variable starfighter, but Bubblegum Crisis power armor is much more individual and "portable". That is to say, you can fit PA in more settings (mecha's too big to fit in some planetary or starship settings, for instance).
In play, they don't have to be treated the same. A mecha IS more powerful, it just isn't so much more powerful as to be more practical.
Rizzo
Well-Known Member
I just wanted to mention that the larger a walking weapon is the more it costs to maintain. Also, bigger size means greater weight. If PAs tend to scuff up the floors on a space station A full on mecha would be painful to any urban environment. Walking down the street would get expensive quick, they may as well follow it with a paver. 
Bigger power plants demand more fuel. Bigger bullets cost more. however the firepower and destructive capabilities a mecha packs is undeniable. Perhaps if Yamatai found itself fighting a war it would begin employing mechas again on a larger scale but in the mean time it makes economical sense to me for them to not be fielded, after all blueprints are cheaper to keep around and take up much less space.
Bigger power plants demand more fuel. Bigger bullets cost more. however the firepower and destructive capabilities a mecha packs is undeniable. Perhaps if Yamatai found itself fighting a war it would begin employing mechas again on a larger scale but in the mean time it makes economical sense to me for them to not be fielded, after all blueprints are cheaper to keep around and take up much less space.
Sigma
Inactive Member
Fielding mecha requires tactical doctrine incorporating them. Given the asynchronous composition of Nepleslian Shaiks (analogous to its field armies), it is easy for all of that to happen. Especially because we know already how the tactical doctrine of every Shaik revolves around the infantry, each Shaik can determine for itself how to deploy its assets to support them. In essence, the Shaiks can decide for themselves if mecha are useful and whether they want some in the line up. Further, each Shaik has the flexibility to re-write its tactical doctrine. The result is four completely different field armies with infantry and vehicled units in its organic composition.
Yamatai, with its cookie cutter approach, basically means that each Legion has to be the same as another. The exceptions are few, and usually GM/player created, such as my Legion XII, which was created entirely as an orbital assault force to be dropped onto an enemy and nothing else. Yamatai's entire focus on its infantry and predicated on its assumption of retaining orbital and aerospace superiority. The NMX have proven they can deny orbital support and thus achieving aerospace superiority. HX-13 and Rok'Veru. On HX-13, Legion XII was so badly misused that it needed another Legion to reinforce it. While the reasons for that are OOC (like why my tank units weren't deployed), the IC result is the same. Yamataian forces operate on a formula - disrupt that formula and they are diminished in capabilities.
The action on Rok'Veru (in the short-lived Altomir plot) was similar because the 1st Marine Shaik operated on the same principle. We did not have Maximus tanks then. 4th Marines were the only ones to make use of the K4 Hover tank and have an organic attack helicopter. Not so anymore. We have achieved greater tactical flexibility by creating units whose aim is to support the PA infantry.
At the end of the day, the reason Yamatai won't adopt mecha is because that's not how Yui, the SAOY head cheese, wants her troops to fight. Nepleslia could adopt mecha if one of its Shaik commanders decides such a platform to be beneficial to his or her Shaik's battle plans. All they would need to do is create a convincing argument. That difference in who is involved in the decision making (Yui vs. Shaik commanders + Sky Marshall) simply means the organization won't allow for it without drastic changes to its formula.
TL;DR - Doshii is correct that our PA can take on mecha. We just do it by actually incorporating combined arms, doctrinal flexibility, and organizational allowance for new equipment and new tactics. In Yamatai, everyone has to fight the same way.
Yamatai, with its cookie cutter approach, basically means that each Legion has to be the same as another. The exceptions are few, and usually GM/player created, such as my Legion XII, which was created entirely as an orbital assault force to be dropped onto an enemy and nothing else. Yamatai's entire focus on its infantry and predicated on its assumption of retaining orbital and aerospace superiority. The NMX have proven they can deny orbital support and thus achieving aerospace superiority. HX-13 and Rok'Veru. On HX-13, Legion XII was so badly misused that it needed another Legion to reinforce it. While the reasons for that are OOC (like why my tank units weren't deployed), the IC result is the same. Yamataian forces operate on a formula - disrupt that formula and they are diminished in capabilities.
The action on Rok'Veru (in the short-lived Altomir plot) was similar because the 1st Marine Shaik operated on the same principle. We did not have Maximus tanks then. 4th Marines were the only ones to make use of the K4 Hover tank and have an organic attack helicopter. Not so anymore. We have achieved greater tactical flexibility by creating units whose aim is to support the PA infantry.
At the end of the day, the reason Yamatai won't adopt mecha is because that's not how Yui, the SAOY head cheese, wants her troops to fight. Nepleslia could adopt mecha if one of its Shaik commanders decides such a platform to be beneficial to his or her Shaik's battle plans. All they would need to do is create a convincing argument. That difference in who is involved in the decision making (Yui vs. Shaik commanders + Sky Marshall) simply means the organization won't allow for it without drastic changes to its formula.
TL;DR - Doshii is correct that our PA can take on mecha. We just do it by actually incorporating combined arms, doctrinal flexibility, and organizational allowance for new equipment and new tactics. In Yamatai, everyone has to fight the same way.
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