Mecha in SAoY

[Doshii Jun]

Sigma raises another good point. Yamatai doesn't look for a whole new unit when an old one is beaten -- they examine what went wrong and build better versions of that unit. The upgrades to the Mindy, the introduction of the Daisy, the expansion of ship types -- it makes sure that PA units can cover themselves or get the orbital support they need. Mecha still don't fit into the equation, as we've updated Yamatai's power armor options to mostly cover those situations and bolstered starship options (the Midori and Chiaki) to help.

 

[Sigma]

the introduction of the Daisy, the expansion of ship types

But.. those examples are of getting new equipment. My point is more that the SAOY constrains itself to a single method of organization, thus dictating that all of them will fight the same way. As Wes pointed out, the Legions don't have tank units. The answer to all problems is to drop a Legion and provide it air cover, is what I'm getting as the SAOY tactical doctrine.

Nepleslia's capabilities is far more varied to the greater incorporation of different combat units. Maximus tanks, APCs, Hostiles, Raiders, Aggressors, VOIDs, AIR 2s, attack helos, J2 Ichabod attack bots, K4 grav tanks to name a few of the types of units we can deploy from a Shaik. Add in FA 4 interceptors, Hornet and Hammerhead bombers, E-2 attack shuttles, F2 drones from the carriers, we can deploy a greater variety of tactics and strategies from the outset.

A comparable list of equipment from a Yamatai Legion (I will be using the two series of Legions that make up the majority of the SAOY's ground force): Daisies, Type 33 APCs, Construction Mecha (Oh Hello!), T7 shuttles (literally all the vehicles in Legions 274 - 633), and V6D fighters (Legions 58-237). If one adds a space fleet component, they will access to V5 and V7 bombers and V8 fighters.

One cannot even claim the Mindy is part of the Yamataian doctrine. Not when 540 of the 633 Legions don't have a Mindy in sight. These are cookie cutter armies, Doshii. By their very organization, they have limited capabilities and from what I can see, they are intentionally designed so. Truthfully, those 10.8 million soldiers? Sound like mooks. Quantity over quality. So, I don't even agree with your argument of how the Yamatai PA options cover anything. Not when the 10.8 million of that force doesn't even have a Daisy in sight. Let alone those badass Project THOUGHT armors or an MCAS.

Sources: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:legions_274-633
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:legions_58-237

 

[Wes]

Since the DAISY arrived, it's always been the "ground" armor while the MINDY is now the "space" armor. So that's why you don't see the Mindy in the Legions. Whereas everyone in the Legions wears a DAISY. And it's true, the Legions do have over a half-million construction mecha distributed among them.

My ideal Star Army infantry unit looks something like:

• Nekovalkyrja
  • in full or partial power armor
  • carries a rifle and a pack
    
  • May carry specialty weapons like automated sentry turrets, or a heal-gun that fires healing hemosynth blood
• Drones:
  • Floating weapons drones that follow the neko around serving as remote-controlled missile launchers and pack mules. Basically like an autonomous Bradley turret.
    
  • Tiny scout drones
  • Smart grenades replace conventional grenades (intelligently seeking the enemy and airburst)
• Dropships (think Halo's Pelican) with gunship capabilities for close air support that can move Nekovalkyrja around very quickly.

Tank units or other units type may be added later if it makes sense.

 

[Yoshi]

Drones:

• Floating weapons drones that follow the neko around serving as remote-controlled missile launchers and pack mules. Basically like an autonomous Bradley turret.
  
• Tiny scout drones

Someone wants Tau....

 

[Sigma]

Blue Communist Imperial Japanese Space Goats.

 

[ShotJon]

Yes lovely, I enjoy hearing from all of you why it cannot be. I want to hear what would make it possible. Let's look at it positively.

I also keep hearing that hurr durr SAoY won't adopt mecha, but that is wrong. Like I already said it already used mecha in past, although in limited number. @Nashoba did so in his own plot, I was there and I want to see more of it. Hell I even have a neko that can pilot a mecha, which was approved by char mods. I am much too busy to create new mecha unit, not to mention that it would most likely not be approved, before Wes allows more mecha included in SAoY.

Also do not forget we are not talking about toweing beast Battletech style, but rather about Frames, which as far as I know are generally about 8 meters tall, which is lot, but it is not too toublesome just thanks to its size. Also why I am talking about mecha in SAoY and not for example Nepleslia is simple. Whether we like it or not, Yamatai has most plots, players and GMs. There is most room to put fun stuff into. So that is why I picked SAoY for this thread.

For example, nowadays some infantry units in SAoY use Tasha, which nice little gun platform but on its own does not give players way too much to have fun with. If they control Tasha, they just tell it to go fight. Frame could do the same job, but would include a player into actual game. It would give room for more ways to have fun and in the end it would be GMs decision if he would want Frame in his plot or not. But if ships like Aeon can carry around Tasha, there is in same way nothing stopping it with carrying around something like Asura.

Which leads me back to my first point. I want this just so there is more ways of having fun. I mean what is one of the reason we all do SARP right? To have fun. I am not saying every SAoY unit from now on should have mecha. I am saying that the option of having one would be nice. It would not be too hard too.

Just as nowadays it is said that some units use Tasha (just example) it would not be too hard to say that some units use Frames. There, done.

Also @Wes, I would very much like to see a reply from you on the question from @Fred .

 

[Wes]

In regards to Origin, there was once a time where Origin was considered the crown jewel of Yamataian industry and firmly part of the Yamatai faction. When Origin pushed for, and eventually succeeded in, being its own independent faction, it was no longer was part of the YSE faction. It hurt that instead of supporting Yamatai, Origin did the opposite by breaking off and doing their own thing.

Second, because of Origin's status as a faction, it's the only player corporation that can give itself FM approval in the NTSE, instead of getting approval from a national faction like Yamatai or Nepleslia, as Emrys and all the other normal corporations do. I'm not going to use stuff for Yamatai if I don't get to approve it for Yamatai.

So my stance is, if they want to be their own faction, they can because they earned it...but they also burnt their bridges with Yamatai to get there, so don't expect any love from the YSE.

 

[Syaoran]

I would think that if a faction commissioned Origin to build something, then the faction manager would get a say in the NTSE approval as well. Since it has to live up to Faction standards anyway.

 

[Aendri]

I'm still not entirely clear on why wanting to be independent qualifies as "burning their bridges with Yamatai". The only way that makes any sense is if you're saying "you either work with us alone or you don't work with us at all", and that's a ridiculous requirement for a corporate entity. I honestly can't name a single company today that works for the US alone and nobody else on contracts. It's one thing to have designs made by them that you don't want sold elsewhere, but blacklisting an entire company because they didn't want to be a Yamataian only company is a ridiculously extreme response.

 

[Wes]

It was never that Yamatai wanted Origin to exclusively work for Yamatai. It's that Origin refuses to indentify as Yamataian. The fact is they could have just as easily sold in any nation the way that McDonalds, Wal-mart, or Microsoft sell in dozens of countries, but they're still US-based companies. For an in-game example, Emrys is a Yamatai-based company but they make all the spacesuits for the NSMC, and Yamatai is perfectly fine with that. In fact, we love having companies that export. It's good for the economy.

But in an attempt to solicit more international clients, Origin refused to claim Yamatai as its home (despite the fact their headquarters is and always has been in the YSE) and became its own faction, which was--and still is--a huge insult to Yamatai. They turned their back on us, and requested their forum be moved out of Yamatai, etc. It ruined Origin's reputation in the eyes of the Star Army, which was once their biggest customer. Since then, the Star Army has been boycotting them for being unpatriotic.

 

[Syaoran]

While I wont comment on wether or not Origin becoming independent is an offense against Yamatai, I will say that from a company stand point, especially one like Origin, that has the power to have its own space stations and fleets, being independent is the best option. This allows them to govern their own facilities and land, set their own rules, they also don't have to be limited by the technology of the nation they fall under, and most importantly, they wont get caught up in that nation's wars. It also has OOC benefits for creating tech, and gathering members, since technicians from other nations can join easy.

But best of all from an OOC stand point, it gives Origin something to work with in terms of RP as well. As I was talking to Kai and Cadet about before. If you're an origin technician it's hard to get RP. So we were planning on making a plot ship that Origin sends around to do maintenance and service on Origin made stuff around the Kikyo sector. It's in the works cause we need a GM for it and I need to finish the ship they're going to use. But generally the plots and character creation end up more flexible in terms of what you have to work with.

As for FM approval of things, like I said above that'd simply be if you hire Origin to make something, then of course the FM of the faction would get a say in the approval I feel.

 

[Aendri]

And to be honest they're... not a Yamataian company, when it comes down to it. That's not them being dicks to Yamatai, that's being honest. They're probably the most ethnically diverse group in the setting, and regardless of where they're based, they consider themselves an international company, from what I understand, not a Yamataian company. Of course their roots are in Yamatai, and I'm pretty sure they'd admit that, but calling themselves a Yamataian company would just limit them at this point for no reason other than making you feel better about it, so far as I can tell. :/

 

[Rizzo]

Just throwing this out there, the OOC and IC aspects of the decision should be clearly separated and it seems like there has been some hurt feelings. If Empress Himiko simply wants to keep the SAoY using nonOrigin products because shes offended it's her right as the absolute ruler of Yamatai. It makes it useless to try persuading Wes based on OOC reasons because the source of the real issue is IC. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to seek out an IC solution, like appealing to the Empress or requesting a meeting. A fictitious corporation unintentionally offended the most powerful ruler that never lived. Were all in this for a good story, right? OOCly were all friends, regardless of any IC conflict.

Whatever the case may be, I have a character that worked for Origin in his background and he likes the company and its merchandise. He also buys a lot of his own arsenal so next time he's in the business of purchasing a weapon or car he'll be checking their catalogs for sure. As far as I can tell it appears to be just the military that is not buying from Origin. The individual soldier can shoot whatever he wants, within reason, or am I wrong about that @Wes ?

 

[Arieg]

I'd like to toss some points into this concerning the effectiveness and capability of mecha and other heavier armored vehicles on the site compared to their smaller power armor brethren.

First, as signifcantly armed and armored power armor of Yamataian and Nepleslian design are they're still limited by the one factor their designers can never counter and that is their size. So to that end considering mecha are drawing from the same technological pool for armor, armaments, and shield systems they will always be tougher and more heavily armed. Dredging up the DR system to justify power armor superiorty, the very DR system we can't seem to agree on and only consider a guideline to me seems a hollow arguement. Especially considering the point above that as a matter of scaling about the only thing a mecha trades is mobility while all of it's other factors go up with scale.

 

[Wes]

@Syaoran: That's a terible idea. It would be doubling down on an anti-Yamatai strategy that has not worked for them. Origin is not a nation, does not have the resources to run a nation, and should not attempt to become a nation, or to build a private military, and if it ever happened, Yamatai might eject Origin from its territory entirely, if not outright attacking Origin for being secessionist rebels like the Qel'noran Industrial Sector was.

@Rizzo: The Star Army, like the real military, requires soldiers to use the equipment it issues or authorizes (you wouldn't see a U.S. Army soldier using privately-purchased Steyr AUG in Afghanistan, lol). Characters can buy whatever they want from Origin, but for Star Army operations, they should only be using the Star Army's standard equipment.

 

[Rizzo]

@Wes he still carries his service pistol but he also has an HHG on him. Is that against rules? Also, being a SAINT Operative he naturally wants to have weapons on hand that can't be traced back to SAoY. That's why he purchases his own tech sometimes.

 

[Fred]

Does this really need to be made a big deal of?

I relate with the Star Army relating the most to using things manufactured by its own 'country'- in fact, I kind of played on it. Miharu's ship avatar Mara was actually not shy to toss epithets like "Novacorp piece of crap" towards the android that was replacing the NIWS on the ship. And Novacorp was part of Yamatai at that.

But, honestly, most of the concerns you raised kind of fly over my head, Wes. I actually thought that Origin was in good stead with Yamatai and I wasn't shy in presenting them as a rival to the budding Miharu Light Industries. I made their vehicles (i.e.: starbryte shuttle) show up where I could because - for all I could tell - they had that kind of presence and it was arguably largely to Yamatai's benefit that they did.

There's even the Daisy II, which was made by Origin in cooperation with KFY (apparently). I do think it's a crap upgrade that entirely missed the point of what the Daisy was supposed to be. But regardless of how relevant I may feel it is, it just reinforced my idea that Origin Industries have been very involved in the newer vehicles available in Yamatai. Heck, because I figured it was fine, I even agreed to have consultants from the Miharu family counsel on said design for the supposed improvement it was bound to have.

So, respectfully, I'm going to state that this apparent embargo has so far only affected you, Wes, because so far no one seems to have related much to your position; even your co-admin. I also think it's to your detriment to disagree. I've also never seen Origin as its own faction of independents and seen them more like some more independent province of Yamatai's... kind of like Novacorp felt like in the Kohana Cloud.

How complicated does this really have to be?

You guys have made a mess of things overtime through miscommunication, and I believe it's high time to simply compromise so that everyone ends up with the desired outcomes they want. Origin is a civilian company of means working on Yamataian 'soil'. It does commerce with other factions (which are not in a state of war with Yamatai). It sees it's goods used in Yamatai, though use is - for now - limited through Yamatai's military. Basically, practically nothing changes.

* * *

And, to return to Shotjon's original point, the Star Army is Wes' military force to manage. He'll put in what he pretty much damn pleases. Obviously, big mechas don't have much of a spot there. So, inclusion mainly depends on the interest of different GMs (like Nashoba, once). Me, personally, I value mecha as opponent for climatic encounters. For my players, I'm not interested. Mechas don't fit in corridors, would take entirely too much space on the vessels I do use, and if I'd use them it'd create a major disparity in the units my players would handle. One or two would be in a powerful giant mecha and the others would be as gnats in comparison. It would create situation where I have to make the mechas useful, but then the power armors would be too minor by comparison and could risk great jeopardy.

Or people could get in their heads to use giant mechas in space battles. Then I'd have players outside in units likely poorly designed to meet the kind of challenges meant for a ship. The opponents meant for a plotship could just look at the mecha funny and the mecha would blow up, with the player character inside killed. The thought of putting PCs in such a vulnerable position simply doesn't appeal to me.

The only way I could see this working is if I made my plot mecha-centric... but - simply put - that's not the kind of plot I want to run. It's also not necessarily match the kind of plot which has been the norm for the Star Army, or which drew players initially to the Star Army. The Star Army's main asset are her nekovalkyrja super-soldiers. Power Armor augments that. Mecha by contrast cause more of a disconnect, because being neko is no longer very pivotal to driving mecha around.

That's how I feel about it, and why mechas aren't used by my players in my plot.

 

[Syaoran]

@Wes I'm not sure you really understood what I said at all. Plot ship does not equate to armed battle ship. That is one of the benefits of being a non military faction as well, more variety in their plots. There is also no 'Anti-Yamatai' strategy. Protecting its own assets is done by a private police force, not a military. And last I checked countries don't kick corporations out for hiring or owning private security/police. I'm sure you being a soldier yourself know that a force that can't mobilize outside its own territory without express permission is not a military. Origin can have plot ships without being 'Anti-Yamatai'. They already have plot ships and there was no problem with that, so why would there be a problem with a ship full of technicians going around fixing stuff?

 

[Wes]

@Syaoran: My last post was not talking about plot ships at all. *head scratch*

@Rizzo: That's fine. The Star Army lets SAINT use non-standard stuff as needed.

 

[Syaoran]

@Wes Then I have no idea what you're saying is 'anti-yamataian' or a threat to Yamatai at all. In the end though the only reason I believe Origin has been able to grow so big is because it's its own faction. And because of that no only does the site get a unique RP experience to offer it's players. (A corporate rather than military faction)

****

As for the thing with Mecha. It doesn't have to be SAoY in my opinion. But there are a lot of technologies that just simply aren't being used in SARP setting much. And it really limits playing options. Right now, if you join a military plot as a fighting character, it's pretty much a given that you will be a PA pilot. And while there's nothing wrong with PA, what about Fighterpilots(out side of Nash's plot) or people who -want- to pilot mechs, or even like a character I have, a terrestrial vehicle specialist, or someone who wants to do some small and sleek sabotage stuff?

Yeah it's up to GMs to make their plots the way they want. But I think all factions should at least seriously consider expanding the options -available- to GMs and players when deciding what kind of unit their ship will be, or what their character will be trained in.

Edit: I'm not saying that factions -have- to redo their line ups of equipment or something like that. Just that I think we're in a good point(no war going on) for the FMs to look seriously at their stuff and see if they want to possibly add new options.