Rejected Submission Neko Burger!

[Amaryllis]

Submission Type: Company/Restaurant
Submission URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=yamatai:neko_burger

Faction: Yamatai and Nepleslia I guess? Independent? It would start off operating in both simultaneously.
FM Approved Yet? I have Kampfer's approval
Faction requires art? I don't think so, but Foxtrot told me just yesterday he'd start making something for it though.

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? No
Contains New art? No
Previously Submitted? Yes

I've added clarification that thinking/feeling beings aren't made to create any meat of sapient species and that Elysia banned the company in their space.

Kampfer told me I could have my company in Nepleslian space as long as the stores that sold stuff like Kodian bear paws were only on hard to reach places like asteroids or independent areas/areas that weren't Nepleslia proper and as long as those stores weren't advertised in Nepleslian space. I can have stores that don't sell that stuff all over the place.

I asked him if I could say Nepleslian criminal organizations and crowdfunding gave my character enough money/support to start this company and he said yes.

 

[Wes]

Well, here's the parts I have "beef" with:

Neko Burger takes an already successful idea and improves upon it by essentially copying everything Neppy's has to offer on its menu and making it all even bigger and more unhealthy to the point where some items are outright lethal to anyone who isn't a Neko and doesn't have a similarly strong digestive system.

I don't think a business with lethal food would be successful in the YSE.

Where dolphin and whale are allowed they're on the menu. Anything goes at Neko Burger. Deep fried Elysian and Lorath wings and literal Kodian and Kohanian bear paws are likewise served wherever they can get away with it.

I don't think a chain could get away with that if any part of it was in Yamatai.

Restaurants will pay for meat from anyone as long as it's in sufficient demand, even someone without any special credentials who just happened to kill a critter on his way over. Of course such ingredients are tested to make sure they are no more dangerous than they would normally be and there are always waivers ready to be offered to anyone who simply demands the freshest of fresh food. If you can kill it, Neko Burger will grill it. Stores often have bounty boards to inform the public of what is currently most sought after. All restaurants encourage and have their own official eating contests that grant victors discounts and a plaque in a place of honor. This is to ensure the more intimidating items receive enough promotion for sufficient sales. Many a sapient has died in a dinner duel to the death. If one has the necessary paperwork, cooks will even be willing to turn your deceased friend or loved one into a tasty treat.

This is unsafe as hell and Yamataian restaurants wouldn't be allowed to do this by Yamatai's equivalent of the FDA. Nobody trusts restaurants to test their own food, they need a third party like the government to do it. Also, cannibalism is basically illegal in Yamatai.

Neko Burger takes great care not to advertise these products in Nepleslian media so as not to cause some kind of diplomatic issue for its government by seeming to condone it being sold openly. Advertisement through word of mouth is not regulated thus allowing such establishments to still gain considerable exposure from the allure of taboo and novelty.

We have people who have live webcam feeds coming out of their brains directly to SYNC or the InterNEP. It's not like they are going to be able to "keep in on the low."

Sexual harassment is welcomed and encouraged.

Have we change this to "sexual propositions" instead of harassment? Remember Nekovalkyrja are military vets that comes from an army culture of very low tolerance to harassment, so harassing them is a good way to get one's skull fractured. Not to mention that Yamatai's population in general is mostly women and is not keen on things that are degrading to women. Sex is good. Harassment bad.

 

[Amaryllis]

I don't think a business with lethal food would be successful in the YSE.

Why not? I said people would have waivers to sign and implied that signing them would be mandatory at times. Many people would be completely safe because of their body type and those that weren't would be warned about what is and isn't safe for them. People are legally allowed to do all sorts of things that endanger their lives and they will pay to do them such as extreme sports.

If potentially lethal food only makes up a very small percentage of what stores sell I don't see how that would kill a business. What about all the thrill and attention seekers and contrarians that would go to Neko Burger just to say they ate somewhere dangerous?

I don't think a chain could get away with that if any part of it was in Yamatai.

Well then I'd have to ask why not. Would Yamatai ban such things just because they hurt feelings?
It's not like Neko Burger would single out any group with such items. All species would be on the menu.

This is unsafe as hell and Yamataian restaurants wouldn't be allowed to do this by Yamatai's equivalent of the FDA. Nobody trusts restaurants to test their own food, they need a third party like the government to do it.

That would be where waivers come in. And if they can't test it themselves then what do they need? With future tech couldn't they just get some government robot to scan the food or something as it comes in?

Also, cannibalism is basically illegal in Yamatai.

If all I need is written consent to start chewing on my fellow Neko's arm while she's still alive and it's still attached to her I'd say it's basically legal.
Also, is eating synthetic flesh even cannibalism?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cannibalism?s=t

1. the eating of human flesh by another human being.

"Another human being" implies "the eating of a human being's flesh by another human being."
Artificially grown Kodian bear paws aren't attached to sentient/conscious beings. The bear paws don't own themselves. They aren't persons. A lifeless artificially grown human body is not a person. The consciousness within a human body is what makes it a person. Artificially grown limbs are not people. Neko Burger is only selling meat from actual people when they consent and the law says you can eat a person's flesh if they give written consent.

I had this same complaint in the second thread and I thoroughly addressed it there.

It seems like people don't care enough to try to understand the things they object to despite the fact that they might not be objecting to them if they were fully understood.

I had two people telling me in the last thread most of the universe would be against eating synthetic flesh seemingly to me because they did not care to consider the importance of personhood when talking about cannibalism. In a setting where people can swap bodies on a whim and mix and match parts why would people be super adverse to actually eating artificially grown parts when they're on the level of cosmetics and equipment? If factions can manufacture thinking and feeling people to fight wars for them like it's no big deal how much would people really object to Neko Burger? Yamatai even has a senator saying it should create people specifically to populate and settle planets. If ethics are such a concern why isn't Yamatai using non-sentient/sapient robots because they can't feel anything negative?

We have people who have live webcam feeds coming out of their brains directly to SYNC or the InterNEP. It's not like they are going to be able to "keep in on the low."

Kampfer said what I wrote was fine as long as I added those things. Neko Burger doesn't want to keep things on the down low. It just wants to do the minimum to able to sell all of its goods in Nepleslian space.

Have we change this to "sexual propositions" instead of harassment? Remember Nekovalkyrja are military vets that comes from an army culture of very low tolerance to harassment, so harassing them is a good way to get one's skull fractured. Not to mention that Yamatai's population in general is mostly women and is not keen on things that are degrading to women. Sex is good. Harassment bad.

Well I just liked using the term harassment for flavor and some amusement but if I have to change it to something else then sure.

To put it bluntly, he really doesn't have to give any reason he doesn't think it fits in his faction. An Fm can turn submissions for their faction down for no reason at all if they want to. I don't think that's how it SHOULD be handled, but it can be.

It also needs to be pointed out that this submission has received very little support from anyone who has spoken up, in any of the threads about it, except for you and Lam. That seems to indicate that it's not something most people approve of, no matter how you say an "advanced" society should handle it. And that alone would constitute reason for Wes to withhold his approval.

I don't think it needs to be pointed out Neko Burger hasn't received much support. So what? Really, so what? People make articles all the time and they get passed with "very little" support. People make guns and equipment Wes thinks may never be used or used very little that are redundant in his eyes because there are articles of equal or better or at least sufficient quality of the same type already on the wiki, but that doesn't stop them from being approved.

How many restaurant chains are there and how many are as detailed and a lot like Neko Burger?

We have all sorts of species of people that haven't really gone anywhere but they were approved. I would not be surprised if many didn't really see much use because they had little support. That didn't stop them at the approval process though.

I know I support my idea as well as Lamb, @ShotJon, @SmokeEmpress , @Deathevn and @Foxtrot 813.
That's 6 people at least. Foxtrot likes my idea enough to make art for it and SmokeEmpress pmed me on IRC saying she liked it and ShotJon and Deathevn have told me they liked it on Skype.

My first thread was short lived and my second became all about your friend's disagreements and his friend who introduced him to the site supporting his ideas.

When someone is expressing himself as passionately against my idea as your friend did, I'm not surprised my second thread didn't go well as I think a lot of people want to avoid getting involved in what they see as "drama" whether that drama is real or imagined. It was also closed by a friend of yours.

Sure a FM can turn down things without giving a reason, but that doesn't mean I'm not even going to try to ask for one that I can discuss openly. I've heard someone said I was trying to force my idea on people but I don't see asking for a discussion as doing so.

 

[Aendri]

I know that my personal feel on the cannibalism part is that you're technically within the legal bounds as things stand. To me, it comes down to a moral thing, where I don't think as many people would be down for eating parts of people, even if they're technically never attached to people, on the... well, the feel of the thing, for lack of a better way to phrase it. Even if it's technically not cannibalism, it's treading damn close to the line, and that's bound to make people uncomfortable. That said, I do think that this restaurant would thrive on a steady niche business just because of that. People seem to like being involved in stuff that has that forbidden fruit feel to it, so I think it would have it's draw based purely on that, if nothing else. The only reason I won't allow it in Elysia is that it goes incredibly far over the moral lines for the nation, and the nation is VERY heavily influenced by the moral feelings of it's people. I'm not saying there would never be Elysian patrons, just that it would be blocked from ever opening in Elysian controlled space.

One last thing, but as has come up once before, leave the personal stuff out of this discussion. I've been on the site for a long time. I have a lot of friends on here, especially among the GMs and mods, because they tend to be the other people I've been around with. I'm on good terms, if not friends, with several people you just listed as SUPPORTING this submission. So please, don't try and make this out to be a crusade. I've asked Semjax to stay out of these discussions already to prevent arguments, so it's on you to not start any new ones.

 

[ShotJon]

1: I like this.
2: This is not cannibalism as we would eat cloned flesh.
3: If someone is dumb enough to eat somethign that is poisonous to them, let them. Nowadays peoples with allergy can and do order meals that are bad for them. All that is required off the restaurants is to give enough information to people what exactly is in their food, this is the same thing. Does not matter if there is actual toxin or allergen really.
4: I have neko characters that would not mind eating in this restuarant. They would not roat real Elysians arm, but they don't care about arm that was cloned in a vat somewhere. So basically it is all fine.
5: I like this.

 

[Syaoran]

Since you're pretty much calling me out again I'll speak. I didn't speak up because I'm Aendri's 'friend' or anything like that. I spoke up because this idea does not fit the setting. You're entire argument hinges on "People in the future are enlightened and should accept other's" but that's nothing but your own self justification. That's -you- saying they're that enlightened and that accepting. But last I checked you are not the FM of the SARP universe.

I kept quiet because it looked like you were trying to play nice, but now you're just being a whinny child because you're not getting your way, and trying to claim some kind of conspiracy against you, that we commented against you because we're friends? Newsflash the reason why your topic was practically ignored is because you're ticking people off with your stupid attitude. No one really cares how many people support your idea. If the FM of freakin' Yamatai, the nation you're supposed to be starting from says your idea doesn't fit in Yamatai it doesn't fit.

Now you want my personal opinion? I don't even think this place deserves the attention it's getting. Even if it's approved, next to nothing it going to happen with it, at least not anything positive. Because the only active criminal RP around doesn't like the place either. I wouldn't be surprised if you were doing this just because you can. Cause in the end what does this -add- to the setting? You talk about not having to prove your submission is meaning full, but that's not the case. Otherwise the NTSE wouldn't work the way it does. You have to prove there's some worth to your submission and that it should be added to this expansive universe. Especially when it's something so ethically borderline.

 

[Semjax]

I also refused to speak on the matter again out of respect to Aendri, and not making any waves again, but you have brought me into it against my will with your attitude. You need to learn that not everything is going to go your way, and you'd think after the last two threads shut down -because- of your hostile and whiny attitude, you'd learn. As I said before, and will say again, the idea of this Neko Burger is disliked by a majority of people here. So you have six people agreeing with you, that's it. Everyone else either supports and realizes its stupid to make a big deal over it, so they say nothing, or don't support you at all.

Wes has made it clear that he doesn't want this in Yamatai, not as it is, you don't tell him he's wrong simply because you want it to be so. I warned you ahead of time that Wes would see this as cannablism, and that Yamatai made this illegal. You chose instead to throw a hissy fit and assault me instead of listening to me trying to help you increase the likelyhood of your chain being accepted. Li is right, by the way, my plot (which is the only active Criminal plot), wouldn't eat there or even come near Rping in it.

It doesn't matter who supports your ideas, if the adequate number of GM's don't support the idea as well. You can create all you want, but it requires GM's to willingly place their plots in that place. Looking at a majority of these plots however, I don't see many GM's moving their players to 'Neko Burger', and even if they do, I don't really see a majority of the characters indulging in 'Kodian Bear Paws'. Especially if they're Kodian. I admit, freely, the idea is fresh. But in the end you need more than just 'six people' to support an idea of this business; And so far, your attitude has chased off any support you have from a majority of the people who have posted here.

If you do not want me involved in this topic, so be it, but don't mention me and not think I won't notice, if you mention me, I -will- bring myself into this conversation. As its rude and unfair for you to talk about me and my friend and hide it behind words like this:

My first thread was short lived and my second became all about your friend's disagreements and his friend who introduced him to the site supporting his ideas.

If you want to talk about us, at least have the balls to post our names.

My choice in that topic was based on my view as a Co-FM, which for your information (which you are clearly lacking) has as much say in a Faction as the FM unless the FM (or Admins) state otherwise. To 'assume' that I was simply agreeing with my 'friends' points is the utmost of arrogance, and failure. So this time I won't hold back and be 'nice' about it.

My final opinion on this is that the idea is disgusting, No matter how faulty you think the future is a majority of people won't desire to eat, or RP there, even if you have a handful of people supporting your idea. As Syaoran said, this adds nothing to the setting. You claim that it will give 'RP opportunity' but which GM would be willing to alienate their players taking them somewhere that serves 'cloned meat'. I don't care what moral skewed morality you have on the idea of 'If its okay to eat cloned Cow Meat, its okay to eat Cloned Neko Meat' but its clear not everyone in the world agrees with this idea. If you want this plan to work you need to cut the attitude and work with people who help decide whether or not you get your bloody submission in game or not.

 

[Nashoba]

This place would be definitely an underground feature, it would not be something that any government would want to acknowledge. It is very much like the current practice of people who go to places to eat creatures that are endangered.

Your main defense is you say people in the future are more enlightened. So you are claiming that people who are enlightened are going to want to eat the flesh of other beings. Regardless of it being from a person or grown. SARP consists of many different factions / species, each with its own mores. If you look at the vast majority of the species and the characters we have running around. They are not much more enlightened than we are here in the 20th. Yes, some cultures have more open views on things, but that doesn't make them enlightened.

Your restaurant is really targeted to not the enlightened but the people who want to indulge in decadent and possibly immoral acts, with a thin veneer of legal applied. Does it have a potential place in SARP, probably there is always a dark side to cultures. But it would not be a major chain as you are trying to imply.

I can easily see Neko Burgers being constantly dealing with lawsuits from members of any species that they offer. Most likely lodged by relatives of the person's whose DNA they are using. Why because most of our races are not going to sit back and say its cool for people to eat synthesized pieces of them, because how long until it goes to using the real thing. That's how people think. Cultures with a strong familial pride like the Elysians are definitely going to be on the Nope list.

That's pretty much all I have to say on this subject. Except for one foot note

Neko Burgers would not be allowed to operate in the Hidden Sun Clan territory.

 

[Amaryllis]

but now you're just being a whinny child because you're not getting your way, and trying to claim some kind of conspiracy against you, that we commented against you because we're friends? Newsflash the reason why your topic was practically ignored is because you're ticking people off with your stupid attitude. No one really cares how many people support your idea. If the FM of freakin' Yamatai, the nation you're supposed to be starting from says your idea doesn't fit in Yamatai it doesn't fit.

-because- of your hostile and whiny attitude, you'd learn.

throw a hissy fit and assault me

As its rude and unfair for you to talk about me and my friend and hide it behind words like this:
If you want to talk about us, at least have the balls to post our names.

To 'assume' that I was simply agreeing with my 'friends' points is the utmost of arrogance, and failure. So this time I won't hold back and be 'nice' about it.

You say I assaulted you and yet in the previous thread you implied Lamb and I were people who didn't feel and have morals by saying no one who thinks, feels and has morals would be for my idea.

Okay. There we go. All I did was state facts. And Wes and Nashoba are liking posts in which people call me a whiny child. Well ok then. I'm done with Yamatai. I know where people stand. I just won't bother dealing with any of you people here or the faction. One more for Nepleslia. inb4 someone tells me I'm not welcome there and no one will like my presence and whatnot

I love this thread. It is fantastic. I see where people truly stand and the behaviour that is accepted and encouraged by the highest authorities on the website.

I'm just deleting anything about operating in Yamatai from my article and I'm not having my single character participate in any Yamataian plots. I'm sure you'll all be happier that way. I'm glad I could find a way to do right by you guys beyond giving up on my article.

 

[Aendri]

If you want to give it up for Yamatai, that's up to you, man. I'd honestly rather see Wes's responses to the points you brought up in your last post. Even if I don't approve of the submission personally, I think it has a place in the setting, and that's never going to happen unless we actually sit down and sort out the various problems that FMs have with it.

edit: Thinking about it, I think it was Nash who said that part of the problem is that it's being presented as a big, popular chain. That's actually a decent point. Maybe reduce the beginnings of the chain to 2-3 restaurants scattered around, and just expand as activity demands?

 

[CadetNewb]

I will attempt to be polite, but this is going to be a sensitive topic regardless of how I phrase it.

Lam is likely to be correct in that the vast majority of people are somewhere around indifferent to uncomfortable with Neko Burger. However, the real reason why things have gone poorly came after the article received criticism of potential flaws. Instead of only addressing these criticisms by either making corrections to the article or explaining why those are not issues, a lot of passive-aggressive attacks were also made along with them. That was just the first thread. In the second, the submission got more attention and people that responded did insult the submission, but they also made valid points. Though these were addressed to some degree, a large amount of defensive, passive-aggressive comments were made, which only offended them further when they could have simply been reasoned with.

Even the response to the concerns Wes had were insulting with their passive-aggressive nature. Very frankly, it is disrespectful and offensive to the person that will decide whether or not it will be accepted in a faction.

Though it is not acceptable that people make insults towards oneself, one's things or actions, it is equally unacceptable to return it in-kind. It's also very counter-productive since it also pisses them off even more. The why is simple; the moment criticism was taken personally, and personal, passive-aggressive insults were made in return, it was no longer a discussion. A person is responsible for what they say and do, which includes how they respond to others; Neko Burger is only getting the hard time it's going through because the responses made to its critics - both positive and negative - were childishly insulting, making things far worse than they had to be.

If you want to get this approved Amary, what you need to do is focus just on addressing the points that others bring up, not 'striking back' at anyone that says something against it.

To everyone else, I ask that they refrain from doing the same as Amary as well; as Tech Mod, I want to do my job, and it isn't making it any easier.

 

[Amaryllis]

Even the response to the concerns Wes had were insulting with their passive-aggressive nature.

You can say it was passive aggressive but that doesn't mean it was my intent. I don't even care anymore about debating as I am permanently obviously the bad guy and I'm outnumbered and I don't have people to come to my defense and even if I theoretically did they probably wouldn't want to given what happened to this thread.

I'm just going to call my business Akemi's and take out all talk of Yamatai and Neko as waitresses.
I'm glad Nepleslia isn't rejecting a business because of "immorality." The concept makes me laugh at the idea that this setting is supposed to be futuristic.

I'd honestly rather see Wes's responses to the points you brought up in your last post.

I don't need to. It seems clear to me he thinks I'm a whiny child and a coward because he liked posts saying such. I don't want to associate with a faction or FM that thinks that of me. The only thing I'm interested in seeing is him calling me a whiny child and coward himself with his own post. I am done with Yamatai. I will simply not participate in Yamataian plots or submit anything for Yamatai.

I will voluntarily quarantine myself from the people here because we're all probably better off that way. I just hope people will be nice enough to leave me alone.

 

[CadetNewb]

A victim mentality isn't going to help you or even garner sympathy. Yes, several others did wrong you, but what you must come to terms with was that they were 'returning the favor' after a certain point. Because, yes, you did do something wrong. All you need to do is take responsibility for your own actions, move on, and don't do it again. Yes, they did too, but they know what they did, and they'll do the same; if they don't, that's what Mods are for. Nobody is asking you to apologize, and it's most likely everyone wants to do just that. Move on, with no more of it so that this submission can be done and over with.

Now, in regards to Yamatai, if you want to have it open there, the points Wes made simply need to be addressed or re-addressed properly. If they can be, chances are it can open there. It's unlikely that Wes is giving complete condemnation and was merely agreeing with the posters to some extent or degree - a 'Like' is very vague. He is reasonable enough that Neko Burger could exist in Yamatai, so long as you yourself and Neko Burger are both properly debated as being reasonable.

If you decide not to, it's already established that Nepleslia is fine with it, and you'll just need to change the article to omit Yamatai.

What will the article be?

 

[Koenig808]

To reiterate, APPROVED FOR USAGE IN THE DION.

I am doing this because I vehemently believe that this is an extension of an important civic lesson; that we must safeguard the right to creative expression, even if the morals involved are divergent from the popular majority opinion. This applies to ALL viewpoints.

 

[Amaryllis]

A victim mentality isn't going to help you or even garner sympathy. Yes, several others did wrong you, but what you must come to terms with was that they were 'returning the favor' after a certain point.

I don't have to come to terms with anything. That is your opinion. I have mine. I will not be swayed from mine simply because the vocal majority supports yours. The ones supporting your opinion are the ones who attacked me.

I have no interest in working with Wes. I only want him to call me a coward and a whiny baby with his own post because he liked posts that said I was such. I also want Nashoba to make a post calling me a whiny baby because he liked a post that said I was such. They obviously don't have to but that's what I want.

This is my new article. https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=nepleslia:akemi_s

 

[SmokeEmpress]

Okay, I will put my two cents in since my name was put into this.

I find the idea of Neko Burger intriguing. Do I think it will work on a large scale all over Star Army? Probably not. It's not a definite "No" mind, just a probability. Is it immoral? No. I don't think so. Not even by today's standards. It's not something that most people would like, but it's not immoral. I think of it this way: Though Nekos are human-like, they are not human. They are genetically designed humans with feline mixed DNA.

With that in mind, think of today and how there are countries that eat other types of meat like horse, cat, dog. Would I eat that personally? Not if I could help it. Would I try it? Maybe. Now, if cats and dogs were considered sentient, meaning they are able to think of themselves as humans do, would I want to eat the same meat? Most definitely not. That is why I wouldn't want to eat a Neko that was killed for the purpose of making the meat used in a meal, even if it was ground up to be a burger. But, if the same type of animal was genetically made, just like Nekos are, and not given any form of sentience, is it really a Neko or any other kind of animal? I would say "no" but that's just me. Others would disagree, and that is perfectly fine.

Though this does make me think of the age old question: When is a human considered 'human'? But that is a debate for another thread. The issue here is whether or not genetically made clones of Neko meat is considered immoral or not. To which I would say that if we had cloning of just human flesh, not including the brain where we know that all thoughts then make us 'human', it would not be human...just flesh. But again, this is just my opinion.

Now, understand that all of what is above is strictly on the OOC side of things.

ICly, I will state what each of my characters that I have created so far would think of this.

Analiese, a Nepleslian, might try it just because she doesn't really know what a Neko is and would think of one as a cat that is humanized. She is naive, but what can I say?

Annabel "Belle", an Elysian, would not. Not because she has any love for Nekos, but because she just wouldn't like the concept of eating anything that isn't considered "true animal". Anything with any semblance of sentience or would come from such would not be something she, herself, would be interested in.

Merna, a Minkan, would consider it cannibalism, just because of how close it is to what she is.

Sebastian, an Iromakuanhe, would not care so long as it's cooked. But that's just her.

Of those who would not partake of such things themselves, they would not object to those who would eat such. They would, though, check out the establishment and see if there was anything they could eat there, if possible.

Okay, so this was a lot more than just 'two cents' worth, but I felt that it was necessary to say something at least.

 

[CadetNewb]

I'm sorry, but I need to be very clear with everyone present.

From my position here, it has become very apparent to me that this is neither a matter regarding the right to creative expression nor a matter of ethics and/or morality. Instead, I conclude that the unusually disproportionate amount of opposition that this article has received is due to the submitter's behavior. Both passive-aggressiveness and playing victim are already unacceptable behaviors not only because of their lack of professionalism and tendency to make personal attacks, but they also tend to incite a lot of anger, to put it very mildly. As a result, it is safe to say that a good portion of the opposition received was motivated by hostility towards the submitter, not the article itself.

Due to this, I will not take that stuff into consideration as I go over this article.

I have no interest in working with Wes. I only want him to call me a coward and a whiny baby with his own post because he liked posts that said I was such. I also want Nashoba to make a post calling me a whiny baby because he liked a post that said I was such. They obviously don't have to but that's what I want.

I have already said in no unclear terms that either of them 'Liking' a post calling you such does not provide clear indication that they think of you in such specific terms due to the vagueness of a 'Like' to begin with. I have also stated that the most that could be concluded from their action of 'Liking' the post is that they agree with the original poster's assertion that your behavior is unacceptable. Not any specific terms or words. Even if you find their action of 'Liking' the post hurtful, you have no right to make demands like this as it is inappropriately offensive. If you continue to make immature posts Amaryllis, I will Reject the submission.

Speaking of, I have stated that the idea is quite plausible, and if the FM's concerns are adequately addressed, could likely work in Yamatai, though that doesn't appear to be desired anymore. Since that's the case, and with the article being re-worked, I'll read over it again and give my feedback in my next post.

 

[Lamb]

Reading this entire thread hurts my feelings. (And no one has even said anything to me about it. Just reading it is hurting my feelings.) I feel that Amaryllis has withdrawn himself from the issue, so I'm basically rushing to the defense of nobody at all. Still, I can kind of understand how Amaryllis would feel like those likes were a slight. That is, to me, a clear double-standard.

When Amaryllis says something emotionally charged, his article gets rejected and he is punished. When someone insults him and his integrity-- that person recieves a 'like'; which is basically the official currency of feeling good about oneself around here. I do not care how ambiguous that is. I think it's abhorent to put a 'like' anywhere near such a post and I can just imagine someone doing that to me-- I'd be outright heartbroken. I'd probably not just leave Yamatai, but also leave the site and have to be coerced back on like a shaky-legged kitten whose climbed too high in a tree. Sure, I'm probably just a very sensitive person. I still think that was absolutely mean, if not mean-spirited.

I wouldn't expect people to take back the things they said. I don't even expect most people would apologize. However; as staff members, I really feel like Wes and Nashoba should've taken more consideration when choosing to like something that might be hurtful. I mean, Amaryllis knew who his opponents were-- so I don't imagine he was very hurt by their comments. But; for the staff to come in and basically approve those comments?

I'm just saying that I (as usual in this affair thus far) do not find Amaryllis' posts to be any more 'victimized' than they need be. I don't even think he cares and I'm probably just writing this in spite of the whole thread moving on but gosh, I'm just reeling from this whole thing. I cannot express properly how hurt I feel just imagining getting the same treatment myself. Before this, I was teetering on my typical view that in this disagreement, like with many, both sides are missing an opportunity to agree because of foolish pride.

I have now abandoned that viewpoint.

Say what you want about Amaryllis (or maybe not, because saying things about the guy apparently makes me post), but think honestly how you'd feel if you were put in the same situation. And don't say, "I'd be humbled" or "I'd be perfectly cool and stuff because I'm an introspective individual", because you know that no matter how humble, meek, and great you are that it would sting you so much to have the people who run the site that you're trying to play on come out and approve of messages which contain insults to you. If it doesn't, maybe I'm just being an oversensitive idiot.

Maybe I'm just over-reacting here. I'm sure no one else in this thread cares about that as much as I do, but... I mean: Damn. That's cold. I'm basically just typing the same thing over and over again here and getting myself all bent up, and I realize this so I'll stop here and just leave it at that.

Oh, but it stings me.

Please nobody ever do this to me.

Because gosh

gosh

 

[Wes]

I agree with CadetNewb.

The reason this submission wasn't shut down outright because it definitely could have worked with some adjustments to meet me partway. Instead I got a post essentially trying to tell me about how I was wrong about my own faction and Amaryllis trying to justify the things I already said wouldn't work instead of actually changing anything. Amaryllis' refusal to work with me, despite being announced now, was really the common element of this entire thread from the start.

But this is my site, and you going to have to work with me to get anywhere.

So I'm now rejecting this submission because the submitter is not willing to actually address the fundamental incompatibilities with the YSE faction that I listed in my earlier posts, and also because of the attitude issue many others have already spoken about.

And I'm not a fan of this OOC drama. I shouldn't have to explain why or why not I like a post and I don't think it makes much sense to read into it, because a like just doesn't provide enough information to extrapolate. But for the record, I liked that one post mainly because of the orange text about "what is the positive effect on the setting?" I don't like to see people insult each other, but when they said Amaryllis seemed whiny and angry, I didn't disagree because I got the same impression too.