Okay. So I will say what my issues are.
The NTSE is a hostile place. When ever somebody makes a submission it swiftly turns into rather mean spirited verbal boxing match.
Regrettable, isn't it? Things would be
so much more peaceful if everyone followed all of the
rules and didn't complain when they got called out for breaking them...
* * *
It is uncomfortable to see the NTSE mods get called names, have their bumped off of submissions at request...
NTSE mods shouldn't be called names, of course, but according to what
@Wes said
here, they also shouldn't "...[review] things where their impartiality is likely to be called into question."
* * *
...and otherwise disrespected.
How is pointing out the
rules being "disrespectful,"
@Ira?
I'm also still waiting on an answer as to how it's considered harassment...
* * *
This lack of compassion or respect has resulted in the loss of players...
What verifiable proof supports this claim of yours,
@Ira?
* * *
Why are you speaking on the behalf of
@Talarn,
@Ira?
* * *
The NTSE is a place for discussion, quality control and getting articles to the point where they can be approved.
I agree,
@Ira. It's a shame that not everyone else feels that way, though...
* * *
It is not a stick to be used to beat people that you dislike with.
I agree - but, well, the
rules are meant to be followed, not broken.
* * *
The NTSE is a very hostile place.
Sadly, yes. It is indeed a hostile place, thanks to certain parties refusing to follow the same
rules as everyone else.
* * * * * * *
Respect works both ways. You will not get respect until you give it.
I agree,
@Ira. Oh, how I most
certainly agree.
* * * * * * *
The first thing I have noticed recently is with articles being approved, then someone coming along with a problem...
It's certainly a problem when - contrary to what Wes personally said
here - a submission that violates one or more
rules is approved,
@ArsenicJohn.
* * *
...and getting the article pulled back into submissions. That is pretty insulting to the mods.
With no offense meant towards the mods - we're all human, after all; we all make mistakes - that's a natural consequence of missing something, is it not? It's like, say, quality control sending back a malformed part from the production floor: it's nothing to be ashamed or offended by - it's just something for those working on the production floor to learn from.
* * *
Another problem is with inappropriate behavior, such as the behaviors listed in Toshiro’s article. Sarcasm, passive-aggressive behavior, overgeneralization, shifting topics. None of those things should be tolerated.
I agree wholeheartedly.
* * *
[...]
Next thing is telling people what they did wrong without giving advice on how to fix it, which makes people feel like they were attacked. The goal should be to help the article be approvable, not to say why it shouldn't be approved.
Fair enough, and that's certainly something I'm guilty of - but when it comes to following the
rules, well, the "fixes" are - in my humble opinion - pretty obvious.
* * * * * * *
[...]
A lot of the criticism being made in submissions is purely just that, and is not constructive. Rather, it is obstructive in nature.
How is asking that the
rules be followed "obstructive,"
@CadetNewb? If anything, aren't the ones complaining that the
rules don't apply to them the ones being "obstructive"?
* * *
Further making things less welcoming for anyone making a submission is the way they're posted. It is extremely bureaucratic, using the rule of law rather than the spirit of law.
Hold on just a second,
@CadetNewb. Weren't you the one saying that "
the proper procedure must be followed" and the one
refuting my posts about the NTSE not being a "bureaucracy"?
It, in my humble opinion, seems a bit hypocritical to effectively state that the NTSE is a bureaucracy in one thread, then complain about it being a bureaucracy in another.
* * *
he NTSE has become an unwelcoming place for new players...a headache.
What verifiable proof do you have to support this claim of yours,
@CadetNewb?
* * * * * * *
It is not a personal attack when it is true.
If this alleged claim of yours is indeed true, then where's your proof?
* * *
All you do is complain, all you do is fight and argue with others(Including moderators an admins)...
Why are you making an overgeneralization,
@Zekec?
@ArsenicJohn said
here that "things [like that] should be [not] tolerated."
* * *
...heck, you even were banned because of it.
According to the
Code of Conduct, you should "..not discuss disciplinary actions taken against any user or account, including...bans,"
@Zekec.
* * *
I can name many people who find you annoying, intolerable and an outright jackass at times.
Who, then,
@Zekec - and if you're unwilling to supply any names, why are you making slanderous accusations against my personal character?
* * *
Let people alone and do their NTSE submissions and reviews, the moderators are more than capable of doing their own job.
Everyone - even the NTSE moderators - makes mistakes regarding the
rules from time to time,
@Zekec. As I told
@ArsenicJohn earlier in this post, we're only human. I merely point out said mistakes when they occur so that they may be corrected.
* * *
You are an unnecessary thorn in the NTSE that make things a lot more complicated and stressful than needed.
Why are you presuming to speak on behalf of the entire NTSE,
@Zekec?
* * *
That is not only to you, but anyone who constantly bickers and fights on the NTSE, it scares people away.
Then why did you name me specifically in
this post and use the word "you" repeatedly in
this one,
@Zekec?
Come on.
* * *
And as this stands, I believe there is a lot of evidence to support it.
Then where is this alleged evidence of yours,
@Zekec?
* * * * * * *
I suppose there's no point beating around the bush. What Frost does was a nightmare to deal with as an NTSE mod...
Isn't it interesting,
@CadetNewb, that - if memory serves - you're the only one with such complaints? I haven't heard a single complaint regarding my style of posting from Ametheliana, Arbitrated, Fred, or META_mahn.
* * *
...especially the way he tries to crush a submission with huge, multi-linked, multi-quote posts that are a pain to read through.
How is someone's posting style related in
any way to "crush[ing]...submission{s},"
@CadetNewb?
* * * * * * *
You don’t come across as helpful at all. You come across a superior, cruel, and mean spirited. You hold grudges and it obviously colors your Judgment.
Why are you making personal attacks against
@raz,
@Ira? The last time I checked, that isn't the purpose of this thread.
* * *
You like only the submissions of people you personally like and that is it.
Your point,
@Ira? As far as I'm aware, virtually
everyone on this site - you and I included - has a tendency to do that.
* * *
So everything you said works both ways. It is like screaming at a brick wall.
It indeed "works both ways,"
@Ira - and again: why are you making personal attacks against
@raz?
* * * * * * *
My concern is that submissions are being stalled because people are flustering the submitter, bullying them into not wanting to post anything.
How is being asked to follow the
rules "flustering" or "bullying" the submitter,
@Kim?
* * *
Some minor issues that should be included into a post are released slowly. Like there is a stray punctuation mark or a minor spelling error but the suggestions are spread out across multiple posts rather all at once. Or a submission is stalled because something was not worded clearly in another submission that was not directly affecting the current submission. Or people are not clear about what the actual issues are that are preventing the article from being approved.
So "suggestion posts" should be massive? I thought
@CadetNewb said that those were "
...a headache..." and "
...a nightmare to deal with as an NTSE mod."
* * *
Or things that aren't actually a concern get brought into the submission thread and it is all OOC drama that has nothing to do with the content of the submission. [...]
In my humble opinion, following the
rules is
always a concern,
@Kim.
* * * * * * *
At the end of the day, it comes down to what the NTSE is for, making sure that submissions fit within the setting.
According to what Wes said
here, the NTSE is also supposed to ensure that submissions follow the
rules,
@Acewing13.
* * *
As Syaoran said, at this point the NTSE has just become a tool for people to use to stop roleplay by requiring wiki articles before things can be RPed and then keeping those articles in limbo for months at a time.
That's why the
Open Roleplaying exists,
@Acewing13.
* * *
There's a way that this could be done without getting to the point where people are 'yelling' at each other. Having been in college english classes where the students go over each other's work, I was told to at the very least explain why I had a problem with their piece and encouraged to provide solutions. It's not 'being creative for them,' it's simple respect for the other person and their time. Obviously, this respect is expected more in person than online, but that shouldn't be an excuse to just shut down the submitter's work and to essentially say that they wasted their time.
How is being asked to follow the
rules - if only I had a penny for every time I said that - "...say[ing] that they wasted their time,"
@Acewing13?
* * *
I've been given that kind of constructive criticism in the past and it was very helpful in writing a lot of articles. But when the majority of current comments on a submission aren't constructive, but rather destructive and combative, then I don't see much of a point in using the system as is.
In my humble opinion, things only get "destructive" and "combative" when people complain about being asked to follow the
rules,
@Acewing13.
* * *
Until the current culture changes or staff is given better tools to moderate the threads...
I cannot empathize how strongly I
disagree with giving submission reviewers the tools to moderate threads, as I personally fear that said tools will be used by some reviewers - not all reviewers, of course, but some - to silence any criticism of submissions submitted by their friends.
* * * * * * *
One of the major problems I've found as an NTSE mod is that we simply don't have the tools to properly moderate the threads.
Like I said to
@Acewing13,
@CadetNewb, I strongly
disagree with this - as I feel that some of the submission reviewers on Star Army would abuse such tools for personal and/or political gain.
* * *
It always devolves into some sort of argument or fight that I can't even put a stop to despite being the mod reviewing the article.
As I asked
@Zekec much, much earlier in this post, why are you making an overgeneralization,
@CadetNewb?
@ArsenicJohn, after all, said
here that "things [like that] should be [not] tolerated."
* * *
It's not only disrespectful to me and the others, but also horrible to the submitter, since it effectively shuts down their submission or has it be dragged out for extended periods of time.
Not to be rude,
@CadetNewb, but, well, that - as unfortunate as it is for everyone involved - is what tends to happen when people argue that the
rules don't apply to them.
* * * * * * *
The point of being an NTSE mod is to review an article, and the pace at which we address issues in a submission is a key part of that.
Wes said
here that the NTSE is also supposed to ensure that submissions follow the
rules,
@CadetNewb.
* * *
It is highly unwelcoming, if not outright discouraging, to 'bomb' a submission with a massive list of issues.
@Kim said otherwise
here,
@CadetNewb - so whose advice should I be following?
* * *
That I, as an NTSE Mod, can't stop something so counter-productive and damaging, is frustrating.
[...]
How is having the issues of a submission listed out for you "counter-productive" or "damaging,"
@CadetNewb? If anything, wouldn't not having to read through the article and find the aforementioned issues by yourself actually be
saving you time?
* * * * * * *
[...]
Overall I am here to play and work with my friends (IE Asteria, the Garts, Ersetu, etc) do random bits of art for them and work on the main passion I've had since I've started here.... to make a straight human faction and bring it about. Nothing more nothing less, maybe a bit of bragging and brinkmanship here and there but overall I'm content to keep to myself and churn interesting things out. My question is why has it turned into an issue in the last year?
It - in my humble opinion, and with no offense intended - has turned into an issue the past year,
@Arieg, because of the fact that, well, some of your submissions were initially overpowered and/or didn't follow all of the
rules - and because there already was a "straight human faction" within the setting: the
Democratic Imperium of Nepleslia.
