+1The worst part about all of this is that all of this is true and legit problems, and the actual NTSE system itself isn't even in the discussion. People have in the last year or so stopped thinking about what's going to make the site better and started just trying to "Stop their enemies". And it's just gotten dumb.
Also people just plain don't know what -constructive- criticism actually is. Constructive criticism only has to do one thing, and that's provide insight. That does not mean they have to give you a solution. But that also means they can't just shout "WRONG". It means telling them something wont work and explaining why you believe it wont work. -That- is being constructive because it is providing insight, even if it doesn't fix the problem.
However the same problems that show up in the NTSE are already showing up here. We're talking about the NTSE not people, stop taking direct jabs at eachother and grow up.
And Legix echoes that kernel of wisdom.Honestly, the NTSE's issue is people are getting hung up and taking everything super personal.
Myself and Frost are fine but others seem to enjoy laying it on a little bit thicker than they should in the criticism department.rather than just read the criticism and move on, they lash out
Okay. So I will say what my issues are.
The NTSE is a hostile place. When ever somebody makes a submission it swiftly turns into rather mean spirited verbal boxing match.
It is uncomfortable to see the NTSE mods get called names, have their bumped off of submissions at request...
...and otherwise disrespected.
This lack of compassion or respect has resulted in the loss of players...
...and Talarn.
The NTSE is a place for discussion, quality control and getting articles to the point where they can be approved.
It is not a stick to be used to beat people that you dislike with.
The NTSE is a very hostile place.
Respect works both ways. You will not get respect until you give it.
The first thing I have noticed recently is with articles being approved, then someone coming along with a problem...
...and getting the article pulled back into submissions. That is pretty insulting to the mods.
Another problem is with inappropriate behavior, such as the behaviors listed in Toshiro’s article. Sarcasm, passive-aggressive behavior, overgeneralization, shifting topics. None of those things should be tolerated.
[...]
Next thing is telling people what they did wrong without giving advice on how to fix it, which makes people feel like they were attacked. The goal should be to help the article be approvable, not to say why it shouldn't be approved.
[...]
A lot of the criticism being made in submissions is purely just that, and is not constructive. Rather, it is obstructive in nature.
Further making things less welcoming for anyone making a submission is the way they're posted. It is extremely bureaucratic, using the rule of law rather than the spirit of law.
he NTSE has become an unwelcoming place for new players...a headache.
It is not a personal attack when it is true.
All you do is complain, all you do is fight and argue with others(Including moderators an admins)...
...heck, you even were banned because of it.
I can name many people who find you annoying, intolerable and an outright jackass at times.
Let people alone and do their NTSE submissions and reviews, the moderators are more than capable of doing their own job.
You are an unnecessary thorn in the NTSE that make things a lot more complicated and stressful than needed.
That is not only to you, but anyone who constantly bickers and fights on the NTSE, it scares people away.
And as this stands, I believe there is a lot of evidence to support it.
I suppose there's no point beating around the bush. What Frost does was a nightmare to deal with as an NTSE mod...
...especially the way he tries to crush a submission with huge, multi-linked, multi-quote posts that are a pain to read through.
You don’t come across as helpful at all. You come across a superior, cruel, and mean spirited. You hold grudges and it obviously colors your Judgment.
You like only the submissions of people you personally like and that is it.
So everything you said works both ways. It is like screaming at a brick wall.
My concern is that submissions are being stalled because people are flustering the submitter, bullying them into not wanting to post anything.
Some minor issues that should be included into a post are released slowly. Like there is a stray punctuation mark or a minor spelling error but the suggestions are spread out across multiple posts rather all at once. Or a submission is stalled because something was not worded clearly in another submission that was not directly affecting the current submission. Or people are not clear about what the actual issues are that are preventing the article from being approved.
Or things that aren't actually a concern get brought into the submission thread and it is all OOC drama that has nothing to do with the content of the submission. [...]
At the end of the day, it comes down to what the NTSE is for, making sure that submissions fit within the setting.
As Syaoran said, at this point the NTSE has just become a tool for people to use to stop roleplay by requiring wiki articles before things can be RPed and then keeping those articles in limbo for months at a time.
There's a way that this could be done without getting to the point where people are 'yelling' at each other. Having been in college english classes where the students go over each other's work, I was told to at the very least explain why I had a problem with their piece and encouraged to provide solutions. It's not 'being creative for them,' it's simple respect for the other person and their time. Obviously, this respect is expected more in person than online, but that shouldn't be an excuse to just shut down the submitter's work and to essentially say that they wasted their time.
I've been given that kind of constructive criticism in the past and it was very helpful in writing a lot of articles. But when the majority of current comments on a submission aren't constructive, but rather destructive and combative, then I don't see much of a point in using the system as is.
Until the current culture changes or staff is given better tools to moderate the threads...
One of the major problems I've found as an NTSE mod is that we simply don't have the tools to properly moderate the threads.
It always devolves into some sort of argument or fight that I can't even put a stop to despite being the mod reviewing the article.
It's not only disrespectful to me and the others, but also horrible to the submitter, since it effectively shuts down their submission or has it be dragged out for extended periods of time.
The point of being an NTSE mod is to review an article, and the pace at which we address issues in a submission is a key part of that.
It is highly unwelcoming, if not outright discouraging, to 'bomb' a submission with a massive list of issues.
That I, as an NTSE Mod, can't stop something so counter-productive and damaging, is frustrating.
[...]
[...]
Overall I am here to play and work with my friends (IE Asteria, the Garts, Ersetu, etc) do random bits of art for them and work on the main passion I've had since I've started here.... to make a straight human faction and bring it about. Nothing more nothing less, maybe a bit of bragging and brinkmanship here and there but overall I'm content to keep to myself and churn interesting things out. My question is why has it turned into an issue in the last year?
[...] I feel that Zekec was right with what they said...
...and that big brick of a post up there is a prime example of what's been plaguing the NTSE.
It's a series of one-liners, accusations and the like...
Yep.
So here it is. We want to be here. We want to write.
We do not need to put up with this behavior. If certain people want to be miserable they need to keep it to them selves.
How is being asked to follow the rules - if only I had a penny for every time I said that..
As the lot of you grew older, you developed new ways to contend with each other... rule-lawyering has become far more common and when thwarted, it does become a lot about 'destroying your enemies'... but you do it by trying to catch them into the rules. It's become a petty exercise of trying to score points in order to defeat the other team.
If that is how you view things then why all the anger all the time?It's difficult to roleplay at all when the shared universe is constantly sullied and assaulted in ways that don't make sense.
I'm not sure what points Frost's last posts addressed (they were long, tbh), but nobody needs to "put up" with behavior they don't like.
tl;dr: Eucharis and Wesposts are the only universally accepted canon anymore and we're all playing homebrew variations on the setting. Thanks, guys.
Fred explained how, did you not read his post?
Edit: And it's not an overgeneralization to say that most of your points are reactions to one liners when a majority of your post is other people's quotes and a sentence or two.
As Cadet said, that's not a discussion.
@FrostJaeger just, just go away.
[...] Your continued massive topic derailing rants...
...and rule lawyering are utterly unneeded when we have actual moderators for this board.
Let them do their jobs, don't do it for them.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?