NTSE Rule Suggestion

[CadetNewb]

Honestly, it's ok to go ahead and make some tech Kirkatan. Don't be discouraged even though we're having this discussion right now. It's good for you to work on what idea you got in mind at the moment since you find it enjoyable to do so. However, I do suggest you find some more experienced players to bounce the ideas off of. That way, you'll get a decent idea of whether or not it'll work and end up learning even more about the setting regardless of whether or not the idea flies.

Basically, we're a community, so you might as well have fun chatting to people while you're here.

 

[Jimmy]

https://youtu.be/zcAaertdaQk?t=41s (Probably NSFW)

Since I probably can't put this many badswears into a single post, this whole thread makes me think of this explanation of the universe. Pretty honest summation in my opinion. So don't worry, Kirkatan, you go on being a d***. Trust me, the way of the D is tough, but leads to occasional spurts of awesome.

 

[Semjax]

@Doshii Jun

I am not one to attack a single player, if it was just Kirkatan this wouldn't ever be an issue. I'm not trying to be passive aggressive, or anything, this is me actually being concerned about the site. I don't appreciate the assumption that I am being passive-aggressive, or that I was targeting a newcomer with this, considering talks we've had before I would've thought you'd known me better then that. I have nothing against Kirkatan, nor do I want anything against him.

That being said, Mentorship could be a good thing, My only worry is for people to know the setting before they start throwing out random tech. Be it Kirkatan, Yoerik, or George W Bush... My first priority is the health and development of this site, and that doesn't happen without first learning the setting, which by experience isn't just throwing things out until it works.

 

[Aendri]

Just to respond to Cadet a bit - You don't think it's just as detrimental to most new players to join, have them submit something, wait weeks, and then be told it won't fly? I don't know about you, but I'd rather be asked to wait a month, then effectively be told they don't care if I submit something, and get rejected anyway. And it also needs to be noted that the idea of having a veteran sponsor submissions within the first few months would be a good compromise between the two trains of thought. It would cut down on the odds of something completely silly getting through, but wouldn't block them from submitting entirely.

 

[Amaryllis]

And if people needed a sponsor you'd help get some new members to immediately realize just how cooperative things are and as a consequence it'd help nip in the bud people wanting to create their own microcosms/sandboxes. Like when some guy says he knows there's restrictions on making a species/faction and then says they'd take a lot of time to write up anyways so he'll just submit equipment articles first you can say well buddy, you ought to take your time with them as you'll need to wait a month if you plan to submit them without anyone else's endorsement. During that month maybe their enthusiasm for making something too large scale to start with will die down and they'll reconsider things or they'll actually try to find people that have a genuine interest in what they're making. And if they just go ahead and make their million articles maybe they'll put more effort into their initial one(s) as they had to wait a month to submit and then they'll say gee, I want the rest of my stuff to be this thoroughly detailed.

The argument can be made making people wait stifles/hampers expression of creativity but an argument can also be made that letting people submit things too fast causes some to impede themselves because they don't put their best foot forward and make a real effort. We've seen people basically just say I'm gonna do whatever I want and build some super tech that beats everything and a race with a jillion people and then weeks later they've greatly reduced the scale of what they want and they keep reducing it.

A mandatory 1 month waiting period might cut down on awkward conversations and/or the intensity of them and the butthurt they might cause because a potential submitter is likely to spend more time getting a greater sense of scale and what fits as a result.

You don't want to hurt feelings? You aren't. There's a rule. You have a right to say they're hurting yours by trying to disregard it.

We'll never know how many people got booty blistered and left or how many cool articles weren't made because of a 1 month waiting period but we'll also never know how many articles were improved because of it or were scrapped without an argument because the creator realized they didn't fit and how much drama was avoided and how many people stayed because a rule told them to think twice instead of a bunch of players.

 

[Syaoran]

I do think the sponsor thing will work out well. That's what I did for my first submissions, and it does start to foster a sense of community right out from the gate for the new players and it would raise the quality of the new submissions, but also probably help the older players refine the knowledge they already have of the setting. So yeah setting it to something like "Wait a month before submitting, or find a sponsor to help look over your article" could be a really good way to go about it. The sponsor also serves to weed out those who don't want to put in the effort to make quality articles and just want to throw stuff into the NTSE.

 

[Doshii Jun]

@Doshii Jun

I am not one to attack a single player, if it was just Kirkatan this wouldn't ever be an issue. I'm not trying to be passive aggressive, or anything, this is me actually being concerned about the site. I don't appreciate the assumption that I am being passive-aggressive, or that I was targeting a newcomer with this, considering talks we've had before I would've thought you'd known me better then that. I have nothing against Kirkatan, nor do I want anything against him.

That being said, Mentorship could be a good thing, My only worry is for people to know the setting before they start throwing out random tech. Be it Kirkatan, Yoerik, or George W Bush... My first priority is the health and development of this site, and that doesn't happen without first learning the setting, which by experience isn't just throwing things out until it works.

I admit my words were harsh. I apologize for the attack. But let's not kid anyone by alluding to the idea that this thread would exist even if Kirk hadn't started proposing changes and ideas.

I ask for transparency. If we got a problem with someone that's worth discussing in public, let's mention the person and hear them out. Don't do what they do and propose a big change without inviting them to the discussion.

We can talk about these things. We're all reasonable (except @Eistheid, who is just cruel, you terror ^_^).

Also, so I'm even about it: it's great to see you and Syaoran start to assert veteran authority. The site benefits from that involvement too!

 

[Aendri]

I don't think it's fair to say that this is a discussion about Kirk specifically, though. He's definitely what kicked it off, but this is a discussion that I can confirm has been going on in some areas of the IRC for literal months, and he was just the latest member who seemed like they might benefit from some veteran assistance.

 

[Semjax]

@Doshii Jun

What Aendri said.

But I'm not here to play games. I'm here to make this site as fun as it can be, where people don't feel like its a chore to ever be part of this place. I've been on that end, where I've felt like there is no point in being here, that I didn't want to feel obligated to post. Its not a place to be.

I want to become part of this place, I want to become a character approver to help them out, to get people in and out quickly and -with- quality, I want to help the NTSE be filled with quality and interesting things like it was when I first joined, things that attracted me to this place.

While Kirk was what triggered this post, I have been seeing quality drops -consistently- on this website and I want to fix that, because Quality is -better- then Quantity. With Quality, Quantity will eventually follow, but with Quantity overtaking quality things will eventually get so garbage that nobody will ever want to take place thats worth their weight in gold, That is why this was brought up, that is why I posted it, not because of one single person, but because I care for this website, I care for what happens, and nothing will change that.

I for one, just won't be quiet about it anymore.

Also, to further explain, I believe anyone can be good for this site, I believe Kirk can make amazing things, his ideas are wonderful, all I ask is that he learns more about the site before going around and changing things.

Even more annoying, is seeing Wes backing it. Not because its good for the site, not because the public wants it. But because of:

Sep 28, 2015 6:35 PM - @Kirkatan: The problem is that, aside from ou, most people seem to like the LASR
Sep 28, 2015 6:36 PM - @Wes: The art I made for the LASR sucks and the gun is underpowered. I don't care if they like the LASR, I want a new weapon that looks badass and is well written.

That's not cool, and personally shows a lack of care for us as a community. He's free to want what he wants, but to say he doesn't care about our opinion is bad.


That being said, the one month or a sponsor rule would be the best and optimal way to allow quality back into this website.

 

[Amaryllis]

Well did he make the LASR article? If he did then doesn't he have a right for it to be changed any way he wants, especially since he could just say the change is an actual in character upgrade instead of a revision? Like it doesn't hurt canon if a new version is made and it's a standard piece of equipment for all Yamataian soldiers and he is the faction manager so it makes sense he wants things as he envisions them. It's like owning a company. I think he should be able to do whatever he wants with his faction. I don't even need to mention that he made/funds the site. How do we know he really "doesn't care" and didn't just mean "I care but not enough to not allow changes I'd like to see as this is a core part of my faction's equipment"?

It's the standard firearm that goes with every Mindy in the basic equipment list for Yamataian military characters so I can see why he'd want it to be stronger. Maybe a lot of people are used to weapons you can attach to hardpoints on the Mindy like Gauss cannons being the main source of damage along with the wrist energy emitters but maybe he wanted it to be seen differently.

 

[Doshii Jun]

For the record: I made the LASR, and at the time it wasn't meant to be overly powerful. It was meant to give the Daisy a weapon useful (and viable) for CQC terrain combat and gave players a more familiar experience. I've always liked Wes' art for it.

Times change.

I want to become part of this place, I want to become a character approver to help them out, to get people in and out quickly and -with- quality, I want to help the NTSE be filled with quality and interesting things like it was when I first joined, things that attracted me to this place.

Some of that sentiment is great. Becoming part of the place, joining up to help out approving things (though chars are the realm of GMs only, now) and getting people in and out quickly? That's all great.

Quality is tricky. And you can sound old and stodgy real fast if we start talking about "quality" and how "we just don't see it anymore."

That's been said in waves for years. Usually those waves coincide with new people. Just be careful about that one.

Sorry, I'm editing as I go.

My point remains the same: Kirk was the straw that broke the computer's mainboard, so invite him in. You want quality, start by addressing players directly in threads that are, at their root, about getting toward quality.

And let's not forget that @Wes isn't an unknown here. He likes art, he likes flash, he likes being top-tier. He has favored artists for this reason since the site's modern inception in 2007, when spending started to rise to get quality art and faction control became more centralized.

The way to ensure quality on that is to keep talking, keep discussing, avoid bullying and avoid elitism. Follow that, and you have an ally in me at the very least.

 

[Semjax]

Well did he make the LASR article? If he did then doesn't he have a right for it to be changed any way he wants, especially since he could just say the change is an actual in character upgrade instead of a revision? Like it doesn't hurt canon if a new version is made and it's a standard piece of equipment for all Yamataian soldiers and he is the faction manager so it makes sense he wants things as he envisions them. It's like owning a company. I think he should be able to do whatever he wants with his faction. I don't even need to mention that he made/funds the site. How do we know he really "doesn't care" and didn't just mean "I care but not enough to not allow changes I'd like to see as this is a core part of my faction's equipment"?

It's the standard firearm that goes with every Mindy in the basic equipment list for Yamataian military characters so I can see why he'd want it to be stronger. Maybe a lot of people are used to weapons you can attach to hardpoints on the Mindy like Gauss cannons being the main source of damage along with the wrist energy emitters but maybe he wanted it to be seen differently.

Context, that's how Amar.

For the record: I made the LASR, and at the time it wasn't meant to be overly powerful. It was meant to give the Daisy a weapon useful (and viable) for CQC terrain combat and gave players a more familiar experience. I've always liked Wes' art for it.

Times change.

And a -lot- of people like it.

 

[Aendri]

I think it's more that the update seemed like such a horrible, drastic change from what we already had, then that we're saying the LASR couldn't use an update. There was discussion about the LASR being replaced with a 20mm autocannon style weapon, which is just a HUGE departure from what the LASR's been used for over the last few years. It wouldn't be the M4 of the SARP weapons anymore, it would be a freakin' SAW. And while both have their uses, they are WILDLY different uses.

 

[Acewing13]

Its not like Wes is going to force everyone to use the new weapon in their plots, GMs are more in control of that. If they want to use the LASR, they can use it. If they want to use the new 20mm, they can use that. A diversity of weapons shouldn't be an issue, so long as the quality of writing is good.

 

[FrostJaeger]

Here's a compromise:

Why not pattern the LASR's replacement on the insanely versatile gun from this game?

 

[Semjax]

This isn't the place to point out the LASR issue, this is about something bigger. Please stay on topic guys.

 

[FrostJaeger]

@Semjax My apologies.

 

[Semjax]

@Semjax My apologies.

Jokes funny though.

 

[Firebrand]

Here's a compromise:

Why not pattern the LASR's replacement on the insanely versatile gun from this game?

Believe it or not, that was and is my plan. The MASR, as I'm calling it, can be switched in an armory from a 20mm AR to a 20mm DMR to a Plasma Rifle to a Plasma Beam Rifle. Possibly there'll be a light 12.7mm adapter to use the old LASR's rounds.

Also, Aendri. The SAW and M4 both use the same 5.56mm rounds.

And 20mm rounds are still smaller than the 35mm rounds used by the old Demon armors, what with their 35mm triple Gatling assault rifles.

 

[CadetNewb]

Just to respond to Cadet a bit - You don't think it's just as detrimental to most new players to join, have them submit something, wait weeks, and then be told it won't fly? I don't know about you, but I'd rather be asked to wait a month, then effectively be told they don't care if I submit something, and get rejected anyway. And it also needs to be noted that the idea of having a veteran sponsor submissions within the first few months would be a good compromise between the two trains of thought. It would cut down on the odds of something completely silly getting through, but wouldn't block them from submitting entirely.

Well, a lot's been posted since my last post, and I'm sorry for not responding sooner. That aside, I'm not pretending my suggestion was a perfect idea. With either option, there will be detriments, however, the idea of having a mentor seems to be the lesser of two evils. It's why I suggest that having a mentor would be mandatory, but listening to their advice or heeding it be optional.

Now, moving on to what was basically the final straw that triggered this thread...

Holy shit, 20mm? Get ruler out and measure that man. Go visualize it; that's thicker than most people's thumbs. And can you imagine carrying the ammunition for that? How much space it'll take up for just a few rounds? The Demons had to have a huge drum fed weapon to feed theirs, and the Star Army doesn't like to do heavy. There are many ways to get around the problem of the LASR being anemic - very many in fact - but upgrading caliber to this degree isn't one of them.

Now that I got that off my chest;

I am not saying any of this to be rude and I am not angry, but I'm sticking as straight to the facts as possible to get this post out. Just hearing of this, it seems that it doesn't take into account the setting, what's come before it, or the faction's style. Not to mention practicality. These are the very same fears that Semjax and others have talked about, and this is where chatting with people about the ideas ahead of time would really help out. Hop on the shoutbox or IRC and talk a bit at least.