OOC [OOC] Cirrus Station Discussion

[Cora]

He's said that we should think on our feet and use our environments, but so far everything other then what's fairly obviously the 'correct' course of action has been more or less useless if not outright lethal.

We can't really use our environment either. Seeing how it's a long hall with several closed doors, and one slowly closing one. This kind of environment is called a shooting gallery. And we're the glass ducks.

 

[MissingNo]

Um, hold up, I just got post-mobbed here in the OOC channel...

*reads*

 

[MissingNo]

I'm not too sure how much schedule will be able to match up with all of yours, I'm back to working at night again for the next couple of weeks.

I can tell you that if we continue to SP so that I don't hold us up, though, to play it smart. We've put our characters in a difficult situation, and I'm about as hesitant of pulling the trigger as the rest of you are.

Saturday I'm working, plus I have a graduation (not mine) to go to that night. Plus there's the whole West Coast time zone thingy, putting me too far behind y'all...

But a JP would be absolutely wonderful. The primary problem I'm running into here with playing a neko is having the ability to do in one second what takes other people five...but in a SP typically has a post with five-to-thirty seconds (or more, in my case, thus the novels) worth of action, then a wait to see if those actions go through. If I were to SP out all of Tweak's actions in this case, it'd be nothing but ten or twenty two or five-line posts of Tweak doing one thing, me waiting for Moonie's "Yes, that works/No, that doesn't work" approval, all of which would probably take a few seconds in real-time...which means neither the NPCs or PCs would have any time to do anything.

The god-moding is less of an issue of we do it like that, but it just takes very long, which is worse by the fact that I work most of the day and my only way of posting on Saturday is via my phone when my bosses aren't looking, which kinda doesn't allow much thought to go into said posts.

But today (Friday) I'm open from 12pm-2:30pm Pacific.

I also just got an idea. I could do a running time-keeper at the top of each of my posts when Tweak goes bullet-time...if that'd make it easier for people to know when enough time has passed for a reaction...I'll make one post in-character and check the OOC thread here to see if you guys think that format will work and whether I need to adjust my sense of time per action.

 

[Kevyn]

I think you've prettymuch hit on the best way to handle bullet time outside of JP Missing. You get more done for the bullet time, but you've done in a more unobtrusive manner then some of the stuff I've seen in other RPs. Honestly, timeframes may be the best way to handle synchronous actions.

On a related note, Moonie, would you mind just giving a sort of "reaction shot" post before you get back to whaling on out asses? I kinda know what Cyril's going to do, but it'd be more or less cotemporaneous with Tweak kicking or not kicking Laj across the room and whether or not that happens'll kinda influence what he does next.

 

[MoonMan]

Seeing as the episode is slowly drawing to the conclusion, I suppose I can let me feelings for the episode go and get a little feedback.

A survival RP where we have peashooters vs combat assault rifles. Hell, it took a convent plot contravice that allowed us to even do anything to these enemies.

(And I bet twenty bucks that their jumpsuits are knife proof)

Perhaps a different approach is needed then; I don't recall the mission objective being kill all of your enemies. It might be that the website is so used to the idea of always being able to defeat your foes, and it could be a lack of true explanation of what I really wanted to see out of the characters in this episode.

Instead, I've given your characters foes that are incredibly hard to defeat, and at the same time a scenario that does not require you to defeat them. The opportunity to win is still present, but will need more work.

Just broadly, I think Moonie's something like a catch 22 scenario right now. He doesn't want to kill of any players, but he doesn't want to make the Uniques vulnerable to anything short of the glowing special weapon. Since Moonie doesn't want to change his two goals, well, we're basically just along for the ride. He's said that we should think on our feet and use our environments, but so far everything other then what's fairly obviously the 'correct' course of action has been more or less useless if not outright lethal.

We can't really use our environment either. Seeing how it's a long hall with several closed doors, and one slowly closing one. This kind of environment is called a shooting gallery. And we're the glass ducks.

Well, I would rather not kill your characters off just yet, as this is your first mission with a real threat. I suppose you could think of this as an extended tutorial where we learn what works and what doesn't. I know I've learned a thing or two.

And, truthfully, I'm a little disappointed. The hallway and the two three rooms being occupied (hangar bay, development laboratory, assembly area) are not the only areas I've given the scenario. Characters could've accessed these areas a number of ways...although it was never necessary. I understand your frustration in feeling you don't have the tools...but from my point of view, not many of you really looked for them. Or if you did, I just didn't understand it. Something to learn from.

On a related note, Moonie, would you mind just giving a sort of "reaction shot" post before you get back to whaling on out asses? I kinda know what Cyril's going to do, but it'd be more or less cotemporaneous with Tweak kicking or not kicking Laj across the room and whether or not that happens'll kinda influence what he does next.

But your asses are so whaleable...

 

[MoonMan]

She flung the knife as hard as she could at Kranker's gun barrel in an attempt to knock it off target and buy at least another half-second.

Oh, Missing, by the way;

Marrisa Cranker isn't carrying a discernible weapon, and she also is not pointing anything at anybody. I'm guessing you're referring to one of the Uniques.

 

[Kevyn]

Perhaps a different approach is needed then; I don't recall the mission objective being kill all of your enemies. It might be that the website is so used to the idea of always being able to defeat your foes, and it could be a lack of true explanation of what I really wanted to see out of the characters in this episode

That's just the thing. It was never explained just what else we were supposed to do. We're a security team, and the Uniques both killed off station personnel and apparently stole something, presumably high value, from the research portion of the station. Were we supposed to back off? We didn't have any word from on high, both IC and OOC, so the logical thing to do if fall back to our presumed primary function. Protecting the station and apprehending the perpetrators.

And even then, once we engaged the Uniques we were pretty much stuck with fighting them. And there was never any hint that we were supposed to do otherwise. What do you expect from us?

And, truthfully, I'm a little disappointed. The hallway and the two three rooms being occupied (hangar bay, development laboratory, assembly area) are not the only areas I've given the scenario. Characters could've accessed these areas a number of ways...although it was never necessary. I understand your frustration in feeling you don't have the tools...but from my point of view, not many of you really looked for them. Or if you did, I just didn't understand it. Something to learn from.

Well, I suppose that the blame goes both ways. This is clearly a GM-Player type game rather then a free for all, so I suspect that most of us were hesitant to make things up. So that accounts for part of the problem. But by the same token, you didn't to a very good job of making it clear to us what we had available to us. You handed us the plasma upgrades, but every thing else with the possible exception of the crates in the docking bay (which I tried to make use of both from the vents and from the ground only to get shot down on both attempts for different reasons) and the whurring death machines in the assembly area (from what we've seen so far of relative armor, more dangerous to us then to the Uniques) It's not like we're going to split up in the face of overwhelming opposition, so sticking together made sense for the part of the squad upstairs. By the time they checked out one room, the Uniques were already on them, cutting off other avenues of investigation.

But your asses are so whaleable...

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of opportunities to ladle the hurt on. Cyril and Kaz are ever so squishy, and the only visible target at the moment.

 

[MissingNo]

First, about Cranker's lack of firearms: Sorry, forgot she has integrated systems; changed it to one of the Unique's covering Cyril. Yu, rendered airborne, is aimed at knocking over the two covering Kez, so all Tweak has left is one more over Cyril and Cranker?



I apologize in advance for any sarcasm that has leaked into this post, I'm not completely awake yet. Please take this for the information presented, not the tone it is presented with ^_^; And, in the meantime, two people posted while I wrote this...I'll try to adjust.

Here we go...

There isn't one option?

Moon, I think we all went into panic mode when the pirates and bay crew were turned into so many corpses. And then we started being hunted after being mocked for using sub-par equipment repeatedly. This is why we are fighting, and most of why we feel we are backed into a corner. In other words, what Kevyn said.

Diplomacy is not this squad's strong suit, construction is, or, alternately, destruction is something it's good enough at. It's just difficult to look around when the GM's not around, things be blowing up, and people be shootin' at you.

Also, people tend to keep their eyes on the problem most immediate to their survival. We don't explore the room or adjoining rooms because the murder mistresses from Milan are shooting at us. (Side note: Why haven't the CEOs and the bay Uniques kept to this "Kill 'em All" philosophy? If Yu is worried about cybernetic recording devices, a quick vaporization takes care of that easy. It's not making sense. Not that I'm saying we must die now, I'm just saying it's unusual.) If they wish to capture the team and not obliterate it, why not call out an offered chance to surrender? Not that we'd take it, since they double-crossed their allies minutes earlier...

As for the "unexplored options", I believe the problem I had with the whole call-response style of SP is part of it: You say we need to ask what's around us. Well, you've told us what's around, but kinda vaguely. Now I assume asking or saying "So-and-so inspects the area closer" might turn up something more detailed, but consider what I said about the nature of SP RP. Say a player posts, and then has to wait for a reply. The waited-for reply could come the next minute, or it could come later when that player is logged off and is unable to answer until the next day, after which there could either be no new posts in the thread or there could have been a posting version of a bum rush that leaves your character five minutes behind everyone else (My most common problem). Not fun, since that player now feels like they wasted a post, especially if that didn't turn up anything useful. Kinda like attacking one option at a time, but anyway...

Combat situations are much better handled in JP, and exploration situations are much better handled in a tabletop game session where you have immediate access and response from the GM.

"What's over there?"
"This."
"Okay...what's over there?"

I'm pondering ways to fix this problem, but it's slow going. BTW, Moon, when this is over, I'd like a list of 'forks in the road'. What were other options at certain points of the story, what clues to better options did we miss, and what were behind doors three and four? Studying your posts with the clues pointed out might help us see those clues in the future, and we can also give feedback on whether those clues were obvious enough or, if we did see them, why we thought they wouldn't work and didn't follow them.

So, yeah, I got frustrated with this and took Tweak aside for a while. I intended to remove her for the rest of the story, but decided to try the only other option to end this that I saw: Capture a CEO. Needless to say, this has not worked out as desired.

Hm.

Yu did say "can we talk this out". Was that an opening? He kinda has Tweak's friends under the gun, so he can fire at any time; Tweak only has one of him, his crew and Cranker apparently don't care if he dies, so if she kills him they kill her friends and she just lost the only piece of immediate cover/meat shielding she has. Plus the CEOs have both proven to be less-than-trustworthy, leaving any negotiation terms open to being violated. She does not see herself in a good negotiating position, thus the attack: First priority, bring her squadmates into a less immediate state of danger.

Sorry : /

We really need to work on an improvement to this system we have here...

Now to get one more hour of sleep.

 

[Dragonnova]

Survival huh? Sounds like the plotship I was thinking about making. (But will not do for the lack of time to sit down and make something presentable.) If I may say so, Moonie, the way I'd prefer to do conflict is to 'make it as you go'. That sounds sloppy, yes, but let me elaborate...

I'll make another comparison to the plotship I was considering, we had the layout of the area and what they may or may not face in each area figured out -before the mission started-. I don't know if you tried to do that or not, but impressions tell me otherwise. (Apologies if I'm wrong.) So that may sound rather linear, but there were several branching paths that led to completely different areas of the place with much different challenges. And what the players didn't encounter, we could use it or it's idea for the following episodes in a way to connect the missions. (If feasable.) Now, for the foes of the mission, we had figured out things that would and wouldn't work, not in regards to what the players might be equipped with, but in general. When the players tried to fight back, we would look at it as 'well, would that really work? Considering where it's likely to hit, if It's likely to hit, what they attacked with, who's the one doing it, how would the enemy react to the blow, and so on.'

Since we had what was there in place, how would we proceed? Well, exactly according to which direction the players decided to take it. We hoped we could provide in great detail of the surroundings, even things that couldn't really help, but at least they'd know what was there. (And if we were lucky, the players could come up with uses for the things that we hadn't thought of. Destruction encouraged!) Whereas the uniques seemed rather resistant to most means of combat, I sort of got the feeling that there was really only a couple ways to bring them down aside from excessive fire. I kind of feel enemies that are resistant to most means at the player's disposal and have certain ways they have to be fought should be reserved for 'special' cases. (Perhaps as a final challenge of sorts?) That varies to the plotship and mission of course. So details must be worked out individually.

But hell, if the characters manage to find a way to blow through a wall that makes sense, roll with it. I think I've heard it before, but it should be viewed rather where you don't want the characters to go rather than where you want them to go. Certain plot-critical places should be the only things off-limits until the right moment.

So yeah, that's just my ramblings. I'm not telling you how to run your plotship, Moonie, I joined here because I thought it looked fun. Keep in mind that flexibility in the missions can be better than the most artfully crafted storytelling. (which I'm sure you already know.) As for the players... well I guess I can't comment much, but don't be suprised for your characters to become injured or even killed. I honestly still think Cyril likely should've died for what happened, but since we're just getting the feel for this, I guess it's allowable this one time. (Though I still say he walks away with an injury of some sort.)

Anyhow, let's get past this, I think it's been squeezed for all it's worth.

 

[Kevyn]

I honestly still think Cyril likely should've died for what happened, but since we're just getting the feel for this, I guess it's allowable this one time. (Though I still say he walks away with an injury of some sort.)

He's probably going to. His next course of action is to try and wrestle a gun (probably the xazer) away from one of the Uniques. Really the only thing that hasn't killed off Cyril so far is the fact that, under the how I understand the DR system to work, the CSS suit is actually useful against propellant weapons and, to an extent, xazers. If the Uniques hadn't burned up their plasma guns, he'd probably be down by now.

And I agree with the rest of what you said. You need to plan out what you're going to throw at your players ahead of time. And you definitely have to roll with what their doing, within reason. Strict railroading isn't fun for anyone but the GM, but by the same token the players do need some sort of structure to work off of and goals to work towards.

 

[Scot]

In short, how can I make my wrecking ball out of some sticks, a bowling ball, and a piece of string if I am not told they exist?

Furthermore, if you enter a room and a forklift is sitting right there, I should have seen it on the way in, I don't think I need to look at the room closer to see it.

Though it also in part that Moon had random IRL shit go down in his own life, details isn't something you remember clearly when you come back from stuff like that.

 

[MoonMan]

That's just the thing. It was never explained just what else we were supposed to do. We're a security team, and the Uniques both killed off station personnel and apparently stole something, presumably high value, from the research portion of the station. Were we supposed to back off? We didn't have any word from on high, both IC and OOC, so the logical thing to do if fall back to our presumed primary function. Protecting the station and apprehending the perpetrators.

And even then, once we engaged the Uniques we were pretty much stuck with fighting them. And there was never any hint that we were supposed to do otherwise. What do you expect from us?

I expect you to play your characters the way you normally would. There wasn't a "right" way to combat this situation; there were painful and less-painful options to go through to the goal.

The goal which, as you said, I never hinted at. I didn't want to hint the situation to you because I wanted to see what your characters would do, and that kind of outside influence could change their tunes. I find their reactions interesting, if only for minor things.

You handed us the plasma upgrades, but every thing else with the possible exception of the crates in the docking bay (which I tried to make use of both from the vents and from the ground only to get shot down on both attempts for different reasons) and the whurring death machines in the assembly area (from what we've seen so far of relative armor, more dangerous to us then to the Uniques) It's not like we're going to split up in the face of overwhelming opposition, so sticking together made sense for the part of the squad upstairs. By the time they checked out one room, the Uniques were already on them, cutting off other avenues of investigation.

Not all avenues were cut off when the Uniques reached you; just because you're being shot at doesn't mean you can't keep on the move.

---

Moon, I think we all went into panic mode when the pirates and bay crew were turned into so many corpses. And then we started being hunted after being mocked for using sub-par equipment repeatedly. This is why we are fighting, and most of why we feel we are backed into a corner. In other words, what Kevyn said.

It was a drastic change from your previous scenarios, I agree...but it was for good reason. This was a good practice of sorts for future episodes, for both myself and the players, to see what works and what doesn't. Not all of Cirrus Station's episodes will be as care-free as a romp in the jungle with neko amazons.

(Side note: Why haven't the CEOs and the bay Uniques kept to this "Kill 'em All" philosophy? If Yu is worried about cybernetic recording devices, a quick vaporization takes care of that easy. It's not making sense. Not that I'm saying we must die now, I'm just saying it's unusual.) If they wish to capture the team and not obliterate it, why not call out an offered chance to surrender? Not that we'd take it, since they double-crossed their allies minutes earlier...

I don't believe it was Laj or Marrisa who ordered anybody dead.

You can thank Captain Bell for that.

As for the "unexplored options", I believe the problem I had with the whole call-response style of SP is part of it: You say we need to ask what's around us. Well, you've told us what's around, but kinda vaguely. Now I assume asking or saying "So-and-so inspects the area closer" might turn up something more detailed, but consider what I said about the nature of SP RP. Say a player posts, and then has to wait for a reply. The waited-for reply could come the next minute, or it could come later when that player is logged off and is unable to answer until the next day, after which there could either be no new posts in the thread or there could have been a posting version of a bum rush that leaves your character five minutes behind everyone else (My most common problem). Not fun, since that player now feels like they wasted a post, especially if that didn't turn up anything useful. Kinda like attacking one option at a time, but anyway...

Combat situations are much better handled in JP, and exploration situations are much better handled in a tabletop game session where you have immediate access and response from the GM.

We have to play with the cards we are dealt; my schedule doesn't allow me to JP on a regular basis.

This is why I encourage JP between players...even if it's usually only for social events that don't need a GM present. Even then, I'm not going to hang anybody if they magic up some non-important NPCs or items that are within reason.

I'm pondering ways to fix this problem, but it's slow going. BTW, Moon, when this is over, I'd like a list of 'forks in the road'. What were other options at certain points of the story, what clues to better options did we miss, and what were behind doors three and four? Studying your posts with the clues pointed out might help us see those clues in the future, and we can also give feedback on whether those clues were obvious enough or, if we did see them, why we thought they wouldn't work and didn't follow them.

There weren't very many hints or forks in this episode, other than the unexplored rooms. The most obvious hint I gave early on was that your primary weapons would not work in this situation.

As for what was in the Storage Area and Live-Fire Testing Range...well, I'd rather not say exactly what was in there, but it would have helped a good amount. Again, not necessary, but helpful were the time taken to investigate.

If I give you an area map again, don't be afraid to make use of all of it; that's why I put it there.

Yu did say "can we talk this out". Was that an opening? He kinda has Tweak's friends under the gun, so he can fire at any time; Tweak only has one of him, his crew and Cranker apparently don't care if he dies, so if she kills him they kill her friends and she just lost the only piece of immediate cover/meat shielding she has. Plus the CEOs have both proven to be less-than-trustworthy, leaving any negotiation terms open to being violated. She does not see herself in a good negotiating position, thus the attack: First priority, bring her squadmates into a less immediate state of danger.

It was actually an opening (that I kind of wish was taken, haha).

Laj has proven to be less-than-trustworthy with his incompetent pirate lackeys. And seeing as it was actually Captain Bell throwing kill orders at you, Laj and Marrisa might've been a good way to wrestle some control into the situation.

I was actually a little surprised that Cyril didn't apprehend Laj in the ship, instead going after Keziah. It was a tough decision, I suppose, and the surprise was a pleasant one. It was also a surprise to see how quickly Tweak jumps into violent situations. I enjoy learning these things about your characters, after all.

---

So yeah, that's just my ramblings. I'm not telling you how to run your plotship, Moonie, I joined here because I thought it looked fun. Keep in mind that flexibility in the missions can be better than the most artfully crafted storytelling. (which I'm sure you already know.) As for the players... well I guess I can't comment much, but don't be suprised for your characters to become injured or even killed. I honestly still think Cyril likely should've died for what happened, but since we're just getting the feel for this, I guess it's allowable this one time. (Though I still say he walks away with an injury of some sort.)

I was very close to killing Cyril a few times, I must admit :mrgreen: .

Your idea is interesting, Nova, but there were several aspects of this episode that had to be the way they were, for reasons that will become apparent in the future. For the most part, I *do* roll with the punches; the idea to supercharge the plasma containers never occurred to me, and I never would've thought a few of the players would actually go and try to subdue Vinross Yu and Cranker.

I was sweating mighty hard a few times, actually.

---

And I agree with the rest of what you said. You need to plan out what you're going to throw at your players ahead of time. And you definitely have to roll with what their doing, within reason. Strict railroading isn't fun for anyone but the GM, but by the same token the players do need some sort of structure to work off of and goals to work towards.

I tend to keep plans and episode bullet-points to a minimum to avoid railroading. I'm not sure if it's just me or not, but this episode certainly wasn't a train-ride for me; there were several times where things happened that I didn't plan for at all, and threw me for a loop or two.

---

In short, how can I make my wrecking ball out of some sticks, a bowling ball, and a piece of string if I am not told they exist?

Furthermore, if you enter a room and a forklift is sitting right there, I should have seen it on the way in, I don't think I need to look at the room closer to see it.

Unfortunately, none of the rooms you entered had such features. Other rooms, however, might have. Short-sightedness on my part, possibly; I didn't think that nobody would be curious as to what exactly was stored in the Storage Area of a weapons laboratory. :mrgreen:

Though it also in part that Moon had random IRL shit go down in his own life, details isn't something you remember clearly when you come back from stuff like that.

I won't use a crappy excuse like that.

Let's just say running an experimental plotship has bumps.

 

[TeslaTornado]

Therefore, it's time for Noboru to "get on the move".

Also, this will be my last post until late Sunday/early Monday, so don't go flying off too far without me.

 

[MissingNo]

Let's just say running an experimental plotship has bumps.

A few speed bumps, a few brick walls ^_^

 

[TeslaTornado]

And the hard kind, not the kind in the movies where you hit it and just keep moving.

Sorry about that guys, things went wrong with my little "weekend excursion" and I ended up going home early.

 

[TeslaTornado]

Double-post because I rock the guitar.

Moonie, is it alright if I just let Noboru sprint right on past the ladies in the stairwell, maybe take a few bullets, and arrive at the hangar in a timely manner? Other than the whole "boss fight" in the hangar bay, the action is getting kind of stagnant with our portion of the squad standing in an open hallway and shooting at the guys a few yards away who are hiding in an open stairway.

 

[MissingNo]

Somehow I don't think Captain Bell is going to take kindly to someone rushing their line after Deacon basically called for a conditional cease-fire.

Aren't the radios still jammed?

 

[Kevyn]

Ye-eah, I somehow don't see that working out too hot. Does everyone in this squad have a death wish, or just the guys who hang out with Kaz?

And I think you're right about the radios Missing, unless I missed a post in there somewhere

 

[Liam]

Keziah = Grim Reaper in disguise?

Discuss.

 

[Scot]

Well there is Jen, who had the plan to fall back (which probably wouldn't be followed out knowing these people).


Edit:
Damnit
[damit]
[damnit]

The forum is auto spelling me.