OOC [OOC] - Senate of Yamatai Discussion

[Soban]

Yhea, like the first provision I don't think anyone really disagreed with. Anslen's only objection was that we may need to readjust it upwards. It's the second part where we double down on the kinda silly and petty buyout option the Star Army has. The second provision seems to pretty much only exist to screw (in character) people over.

 

[Soban]

> they can just stay on LACY forever and stick Yamatai with the bill for getting out of the enlistment contract they agreed to.

I mean just staying on LACY forever is an option regardless of if they were using it to pay their loans or buy alcohol, or gatcha game stuff. So I don't really see a difference here between them. You can be a CEO of the biggest corp in Yamatai and get it. So saying 'well they might spend the money we entitle them to anyway on something stupid' doesn't really cut it.

 

[raz]

I mean just staying on LACY forever is an option regardless of if they were using it to pay their loans or buy alcohol, or gatcha game stuff. So I don't really see a difference here between them.

It is a problem and there is a difference because LACY shouldn't exist as a direct funnel to enrich private banking interests. It's a very Kuvexian idea in-character.

 

[HarperMadi]

Most people aren't going to. People want to be productive, and are going to find some form of employment or do something with their time.

Keep in mind, I'm still writing the Shuristan Charter, so take it with a small Siberian salt mine, but that's exactly why I elected to use the water credit and UBI system I did.

Water credits are backed by total water volume aboard the Flotilla. It doesn't degrade, volume changes are minimal to null assuming everything goes right, and it doesn't care if this is unpotable waste water or clean drinking water, as it all is constantly moving through the waste processing and filtration systems. Which, by household sewer monitoring, allows the financial institutions to allocate a basic income based on that waste and what's typically in it for a solid portion of basic living costs. It doesn't cover everything, sure, but it makes everything a lot more accessible. It also allows resource allocation for areas experiencing issues such as public health or water toxicity concerns. You're not gonna  like being jobless on Shurista, but you're not gonna die.

Now this is very different from Yamatai's system, but both essentially do the same thing. And neither one is designed to pay off your buyout loan.

 

[Soban]

Not really, if any citizen takes out a stupid loan they can use their LACY to pay for it. Money is fungible. So it kinda doesn't matter where it comes from private employment or from LACY. We shouldn't be telling people what they can and can't spend their LACY on. If we do want to tell people what to spend their LACY on, their are better ways to do that.

Edit: While I do have economic points, my biggest objection is mainly that it feels like we are screwing over people who just want to get out of their enlistment contract. While some people might see screwing them over as a plus, I don't and it bothers me greatly.

 

[raz]

The bill's entire intent in-character is to prevent soldiers from getting loans to buy out their enlistment contracts. It's been articulated both IC and OOC why: because allowing loans for enlistment buyout exchanges one contract to the government for another contract to a bank. And then on top of that, it makes the government ultimately pay the bank back for letting their own soldier go. In-character this should be entirely unobjectionable to the vast majority of citizens, especially those who recently fought against the Kuvexians whose culture was entirely based around such financial shenanigans.

No one is obligated to vote in ways that make sense in-character, but I'm putting it out there so the facts are understood out-of-character. This is not a controversial bill so please do not use it as an excuse to create controversy in-character.

 

[HarperMadi]

Oh, the contention of the bill is decidedly not the reason for Shurista's refusal to support it. That is entirely based on the arguments made by the presenting senator. Shurista was all for it. And I am, too. Shretas can still be convinced, but right now he's mad at the implications used in argument.

The only thing I find objectionable right now is the valuation of assets. For instance, one of my characters has a ship being restored that would pay for her buyout if she A: wanted to buy out, and B: wasn't restoring it for her adopted daughter. She also has plenty of other artifacts by heirloom that could easily pay for it if she could liquidate them for fair prices (if at all. Senti artifacts are hard to liquidate, especially right now.)

Another who was downgraded to an NPC after the RSR shenannigans, wouldn't be willing to buy out, but couldn't without a loan, anyway.

IF he did, he would want to use the loan money, then pay back the loan using funding from a job he would have absolutely no problem getting. As most people would. Most would treat such an option as a student loan and take the opportunity for a career change. Which wouldn't put them on LACY for long, if at all.

 

[Soban]

I think both the ' exchanges one contract for another' and the whole 'welfare abuse' arguments don't work and are terrible arguments. The entire buyout thing doesn't even really make sense given that we can just print more soldiers. Even Hanako's logic of "The Star Army never wanted the money, they wanted soldiers who could be trusted and honored their commitment." doesn't make sense. If they only want soldiers who can be trusted to fufill their commentment, they should be making it easier to leave the army, not harder. Not to mention that a lot of the 'commitments' are done with people who don't really have a good grasp on their options and are genetically preconditioned to accept it.

 

[demibear]

We really should develop some simplified (like really dumbed down Model UN simple) parliamentary rules. That way when an amendment is motioned and seconded, it is just something to be voted on/not seen as the only amendment.

 

[Soban]

A copy of Robert's Rules of Order drops through a random multidimensional portal. Lol

I'm not really familiar with parliamentary rules, but I do agree that we need better ways of organizing the discussion. We have a couple of different amendments on 121 and a lot of our proposals die after they encounter even the slightest idea that they may need to change. A way for us to do it smoothly IC would be nice.

 

[Alex Hart]

I feel like this bill could be split into two bills, each better suited to addressing the two problems the current one is trying to solve. Bill one would cut to the chase and make it illegal for servicemembers to accept loans of any kind, or illegal to buy out. The ultimate goal seems to be to put legal obstacles in the way of players and characters who want to leave the Star Army, so it might as well leave the loan protections part for a broader bill that protects all citizens.

Bill two, which focuses on the part of the original bill meant to address how Yamatai could be made to pay for citizen debts via LACY, could honestly be changed to be a broader reform of LACY, since loans aren't the only objectionable thing that the money could be spent on, just the only one that concerns the Star Army. But it's the Senate of Yamatai, not the senate of the Star Army. LACY could probably be reformed into a system whereby LACY credits are handed out rather than KS, and vendors can collect the KS value of the credits that customers spend. They could only be spent at approved vendors for approved purposes, cutting out the risk of Yamatai's money being used on things like alcohol, drugs, gambling, and of course loans.

 

[raz]

Look, guys. This was supposed to be an open and shut kind of feel good proposal that accomplishes something the Empire and most of its citizens would see as positive given their in-character culture and history. Proposal 121 was something to give activity in the Senate concerning something entirely mundane and the IC/OOC reaction to this airtight proposal has kind of taken me out of wanting to introduce fluff legislation in the future. Based on the experience I'll probably stick with simply voting for others' stuff hereafter.

Senate voting is an up or down vote, not a system by which our characters continually vote on how to change a proposal until it does nothing it set out to do. Gonna give it a few more days so people away for Independence Day can check it out and weigh in if they want. After that we'll see if it passed or failed, and if it fails then it doesn't bother me if someone else wants to make another proposal that looks the same but serves an entirely different purpose from what 121 set out to do.

That said, Happy 4th of July! Enjoy your burgers, brats, and brews

 

[Wes]

Will post in the RP thread when I get back from vacation with my family. Sorry for the delay.

 

[Soban]

I think the first provision is Airtight. Literally everyone said it was good, and even Anslen who is somewhat critical is open for it being not just for soldiers, but for everyone. The second bit dealing with the buyout is contentious. If you wanted something easy sailing, I'd say jettison the second part and we would be all for it.

Overall, we (and I 100% include myself in this) are bad at pre-vote consensus gathering. If you want something to just sail through, that consensus needs to be built before the proposal is on the floor.

 

[demibear]

There is an old proposal that I want to brush up and present to others for just that. That way all the amendments are done before the actual vote.

 

[Yuuki]

If it's the bill I am thinking of I want it to be known, because we pride ourselves on simple bills that aren't full of a bunch of legalese, because Yamatai has simple needs, that it is anything but. I had two bills, 116a (in limbo) and 117 (unintroduced), that are very, very complex because they were reintroductions of previous bills that had what my senator character at the time considered essential parts of the bill minus the things people objected to, so their state was partially due to having inherited a certain base level of complexity to begin with.

The second caveat here is they actually grew in complexity despite having parts removed, because they attempted to address far more complex, abstract, and far-reaching things than Yamataian Senate bills usually covered, and they attempted to do so in a way that both I and my character believed necessitated further detail for clarification and unambiguity.

 

[demibear]

If it's the bill I am thinking of I want it to be known, because we pride ourselves on simple bills that aren't full of a bunch of legalese, because Yamatai has simple needs, that it is anything but. I had two bills, 116a (in limbo) and 117 (unintroduced), that are very, very complex because they were reintroductions of previous bills that had what my senator character at the time considered essential parts of the bill minus the things people objected to, so their state was partially due to having inherited a certain base level of complexity to begin with.

The second caveat here is they actually grew in complexity despite having parts removed, because they attempted to address far more complex, abstract, and far-reaching things than Yamataian Senate bills usually covered, and they attempted to do so in a way that both I and my character believed necessitated further detail for clarification and unambiguity.

Should I introduce them as is or try to remove a lot of the legalese? Because I think a much clearer definition of regions is a good thing.

 

[Soban]

Going over both of them, like I think we probably need to update both things 'local governments' and 'deal with the legal stuff with ST'

I think we can probably make 117 a bit simpler. But it's definitely something we need to consensus build before it's proposed onto the floor. Hmmm... opens up a text editor

 

[Yuuki]

116a technically already passed with some small considerations, I just don't have it in me to RP that out.

 

[Yuuki]

Also another thing with Prop 117 you have to remember Hitomi's IC motivations when she drafted it.

1) It clearly benefits the MCS bloc she represents, and codifies a lot of the liberties Motoyoshi takes governing that eastern 40% or so of the Empire as its own country (because it was).
2) She was openly Reunificationist when it came to Nepleslia. She was born in YE01 to Nepleslian Geshrin-Settler parents, after all. This would open a clear legal pathway for the DIoN to reunify and still maintain its distinctiveness and ability to self-govern as it saw fit, provided those things didn't infringe on anything granted by the Yamataian Constitution (not even a spoiler that it wouldn't), much the same way it does for the MCS. It was also a bone tossed to Elysian pride in order to get them on board.