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OOC [OOC] - Senate of Yamatai Discussion

To me, at least, you're the ultimate custodian of everything, and the grande gamemaster-des-gamemasters and grande faction manager-des-managers, so it's not really something that applies to you personally at all I don't think? That represents your ability to "do whatever you think is best for Star Army," in the contingency things go south. You're just "the rest of them," in the absence of a player.
 
Now that we have a system and standards for keeping track of the OOC Managers of setting elements, would it make sense for senators to be played by (or on behalf of) the OOC Manager of the system?

I think so, like the sense I've always gotten from the senate is that they were supposed to help provide RP and stuff for the system they represent.
 
To be fair, the post with the speech in it wasn’t the first post to arbitrarily dictate the responses of Yamataian citizens from across the Empire.
There is a big difference between saying “my politician’s in-house pollster gave them information they wanted to hear” and “haha there was an election not talked about anywhere and it was a landslide,” especially when the character is canonically disgraced in the eyes of most citizens with the last actual mention of an election for Virginia stating they “managed” to hold on to their seat. It’s a false equivalency to compare the two posts. Butting heads with the Empress, forcing a premier to resign, and getting hand picked by Yui for a dishonorable discharge wouldn’t make a character popular because, as is stated in Player’s Rights, a character can still expect to suffer consequences when they’re as heinously despicable as Seinouske is.

Do you guys feel that players should be limited to one vote per bill in the rare case of someone having multiple senators? Or should we just vote with however many we have based on their IC views? This mostly makes a difference for me since I play all the non-claimed systems.

Already stated my preference for one vote and one Senator. Technically I also play Tatiana’s government, but didn’t make a second senator and come into every Senate thread demanding the planet gets a vote because I rightly assumed it was taboo (and the one time I did have the governor deliver its premier ballot, I didn’t even expect it to be officially counted). So I hope you can see why it feels like cheating for some of us to allow others to vote twice.
 
I feel that the role of OOC Manager and Senator should not be mandated to be one and the same. I think two people, each working together and pursuing their own mutual writing goals, is the ideal scenario.

But if the powers that be grant a Senator character to an OOC Manager who applies for a Senator character, that's fine. I don't think this should be prevented on principle, as long as the applicant OOC manager meets the expected standards.

I think it would be prudent to continue holding writers with these roles to a set of expected performance standards. Are they creating and maintaining content within their purview? Do they need help and support that they aren't receiving? Does this manager or senator-player help others write in the setting, and encourage the use of their species or faction in other stories? Does it appear to be a heart-wrenching ordeal to work with this person OOC? I think yall do audits of some sort already though, so this may be moot.

I do feel that there should be a One Writer One Vote (OWOV) restriction. At the very least, difficult feelings may arise if one writer has two votes. I feel that the more distributed the Senate activity is among the player base, the greater buy-in there will be for what it does; a OWOV rule might help make that happen.

That being said, I think the One Writer One Vote could include an exception: Wes. Quite a lot of content that doesn't have a custodian or manager falls on his shoulders. For reasons stated by Yuuki above, I think a Wes Exception (Wexception?) is valid.
 
Traditionally the people playing senators were asked to be the custodian and improve of their system. Now that we have a system and standards for keeping track of the OOC Managers of setting elements, would it make sense for senators to be played by (or on behalf of) the OOC Manager of the system?

Do you guys feel that players should be limited to one vote per bill in the rare case of someone having multiple senators? Or should we just vote with however many we have based on their IC views? This mostly makes a difference for me since I play all the non-claimed systems.
For the first point, yes, as in my opinion, if you’re willing to put in the effort to improve a setting element you should get a voice on things that affect said setting element. Due to that, I also don’t think that players should be limited to one vote per bill (though they definitely shouldn’t get more than two votes). This is because, well, if you’re willing to put in the effort and foster roleplay in/development of/improvement of/etc. two systems, why shouldn’t that be rewarded? An ironclad, no-exceptions-allowed rule limiting players to one vote also feels kind of like voter suppression to me, as it stifles player choice by ignoring extenuating circumstances (Ethereal getting banned from the site) and makes zero in-character sense (why would Seinosuke not vote on things?).

Also, raz, please stop filling the thread with negativity just because you didn’t get your way. Wes made his decision already, and complaining about it isn’t going to change anything. As demibear said earlier:

Wes has already made his decision on the matter. Harping on it is not helping.

Edit: Honestly, I'm starting to think that a "one vote per player" rule should be implemented after the current voting has concluded, simply because, well, what's to stop people with sufficient time - which not everyone, myself included, has - from acquiring a second system (and thus senator) in order to stack votes for their political party?
 
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There already exists an inherent OOC manager position for each Senate player. The application asks what ideas they have for the system, and the player is expected to improve/maintain their system or planet’s wiki page in the absence of other work being done for it.
 
I do agree wholeheartedly with Yuuki and Hollander on the matters mentioned in their entirety. Hollander put it quite nicely when explaining OOC manager and Senators, as long as an OOC Manager that has a Senator can or already does balance both requirements, have at it.

As far as One Writer One Vote restriction? Absolutely, one writer whether or not they control multiple Senators should have one vote when it comes to voting. It helps ensure a variegated player base input and at least has the chance of mitigating some of the issues that have arisen. With that, I also support the Wexception caveat to the One Writer One Vote restriction.
 
Very well, based on feedback, voting will be restricted to one person per vote. If you have more than one senator, you can choose which one to use in the voting thread the way you'd choose your fighter in a fighting game, and as the FM I get to control senators for non-claimed systems (though in practice I don't plan to go overboard with this, it's enough work to write for one system's senator!).

I hope this settles things because I feel like I've been putting a lot of effort responding to these senate concerns that I could have been using for RP.
 
Very well, based on feedback, voting will be restricted to one person per vote. If you have more than one senator, you can choose which one to use in the voting thread the way you'd choose your fighter in a fighting game, and as the FM I get to control senators for non-claimed systems (though in practice I don't plan to go overboard with this, it's enough work to write for one system's senator!).

I hope this settles things because I feel like I've been putting a lot of effort responding to these senate concerns that I could have been using for RP.
This makes me happy! This is what I was going for when I dropped my Senator when Kat was Premier. Good change.
 
because you didn’t get your way
Maybe not but sensibility and reason got its way, and enforced what (almost) everyone already assumed.

Thanks for your consideration and diligence in hearing out more than one guy, Wes.
 
as the FM I get to control senators for non-claimed systems (though in practice I don't plan to go overboard with this, it's enough work to write for one system's senator!
Being an absolutist in theory but refraining from exercising it regularly is literally how Yamatai works
 
Very well, based on feedback, voting will be restricted to one person per vote. If you have more than one senator, you can choose which one to use in the voting thread the way you'd choose your fighter in a fighting game, and as the FM I get to control senators for non-claimed systems (though in practice I don't plan to go overboard with this, it's enough work to write for one system's senator!).

I hope this settles things because I feel like I've been putting a lot of effort responding to these senate concerns that I could have been using for RP.
Does this apply to the current thread, then? I feel like it shouldn’t, given that it’d be retconning what @Soban said in his roleplaying post.
 
No, because it probably doesn't actually matter to the outcome and this was actually a procedural argument, and also because if it did make difference and we wanted it to apply, Wes would just vote an extra NPC or whatever to make up for it, so he doesn't have to retcon anything narratively either way.
 
However I don't like that I was the only MCS senator who voted and it was an MCS senator that revived it after Mochi's version died even with Anseln's revisions to some objections.
 
Summary:
I think one problem with the way the Senate does things, that causes so many feelings and odds, is it doesn't run like a real parliamentary body where something is introduced, debated, amended, and only then put to a vote. In this case, it's like most things are drafted unilaterally in a vacuum as an individual, which is not ideal, and this happens irrespective of whether they claim, or their character claims, to be a discourse-focused or imperialist or what have you. In a best-case informal collaborative situation, there are still the limitations of with whom it is shared beforehand and who bothered to respond being a subset of the electors, which is tantamount to a closed-door committee: better, but still not ideal, even if someone tries their best to get as many and as diverse of eyes on it as they can, even if it's an open comments OOC thread. Then, the bill is immediately put to vote.

Proposal:
  1. I think if we used something more akin to actual parliamentary procedures for amendment and ratification, the things that come through would not only be more refined, but also more representative of what Yamatai as a living simulated nation wants and needs. Actually RPing out the debate, amendment, and other parliamentary apparatus that occur prior to the vote, made formalized because it's part of participating in the Senate, would increase perceived stake and put the in character details and consequences forward over the meta and OOC.
  2. All of us should also strive to be actively mindful that Wes is the ultimate arbiter so there ultimately is no meta except what he thinks is best for Star Army whether that's to let Senate choices stand as is or put his finger on the scale either one: we're just playing a game that seems like we're making decisions and it so happens that most of the time we act as if we actually did make a meaningful decision with real authority in our play.

Addendum:
Also also I really want to let it be known that essentially everything my Senator character introduced was to salvage the non-objectionable stuff that sank along with Mochi's bills because of those objections to certain parts of it, which I excised, because a lot of the non objectioned stuff was quite useful, if not in some cases essential. Or where things needed clarification, I extended them. Mochi's last few bills, which I revised as 116a and 117, attempted to tackle very complex subjects, which is why they were so long and involved compared to our usual short and sweet bills, even before I added a whole lot of words to their text. I was also playing a very anal-retentive Senator, as opposed to the shiny happy movie star who is in there now, so OOC and IC were very aligned during Hitomi's tenure, and we were both in concordance about being highly critical in our standards for such ambitious projects. Both of us are the sort of people who it hurts our necks to look down and everything is much easier if everyone else is elevated instead. 116a was basically passing near-unanimously, Mochi had a question, I got sick, and he got banned before I was back. I am also a bit put out about that, though this may not be the arena for that grievance. There was another one I was working on too, I think that came out of 115? Anyway, without the change to procedure I am talking about in my summary and proposal above, this will keep happening. Someone will have a bill that's a bunch of good ideas and bad ideas put together, everyone has to vote on it immediately, and it goes down, taking the good along with it. Rinse, repeat.

tl;dr:
Read it.
 
I want to make a proposal that makes a process (and having Senate: Debate or something like that would be nice) of bill to law. Largely what is happening now without the voting. But it would be best if someone else writes it the actual structure. If I was a wordsmith, I wouldn't be in China.
 
We have rules of order (uncodified, but appearing in RP using simple assumptions because different players are familiar with different systems) that are maintained by an independent Imperial Steward who keeps order and recognizes motions, created long ago because Senators being uncouth is not a new thing. Essentially they're supposed to maintain parliamentary procedures. Amusingly, past controversy involving the Premier joining debate was misguided because the Premier is allowed to debate due to the Imperial Steward existing as someone objective who keeps order.

This is generally an NPC position but no one ever plays it. Which is fine. It exists for the Premier player to be able to send the Sergeant at Arms to admonish mouthy Senators, and that privilege has never been exercised.

Ultimately, players must be willing to do more than have their Senators expound or snipe for the amendment process to work if required. For Proposal 123, the Senators of Tami, Yamatai, Koukotsu, and Xiuluria proposed changes and/or seconded motions to amend. So the actual current legislation RP has been going pretty smoothly separate from the OOC question of double dipping in-character votes.
 
You forgot one other proposing changes. But I think leaving it uncodified is just asking for trouble to keep rearing its head. It doesn't need to be a large booklet where you need to dig it out and read it every time to make sure you are in the right like in the South African parliament and its EFF constantly skirting the lines forcing people to actually read it. Maybe adopting some procedures from one of the simplest Model UN systems could work as something to use.
 
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