OOC [OOC] - Senate of Yamatai Discussion

Even still, it's mostly the original, just without the stuff people specifically objected to removed.

*Takes notes to blandify it*

Hello!

I would like clarification from @Wes as to whether a single player is permitted to have two separate Senate votes counted.

As I and others understand it, including demibear based on a comment he posted publicly in Discord, each player may only have one voting character (regardless of whether they control multiple Senators). This tracks because players must OOC apply using this form, so characters don't retain OOC approval to be a voting Senator because it is tied to the player in the Senate subplot/minigame rather than the character.

No rush to answer as it's not urgent at all (though the question can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no"). Wes/FM answers only, please

In a similar vein, Wes, is the creator of a proposal automatically assumed to have cast a “Yes” vote in favor of said proposal when they bring it to the Senate floor? Wes/FM answers only, please.

FrostJaeger said:

In a similar vein, Wes, is the creator of a proposal automatically assumed to have cast a “Yes” vote in favor of said proposal when they bring it to the Senate floor? Wes/FM answers only, please.

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Yes, IIRC it's actually in the voting procedure law that this is the case.

raz said:

Hello!

I would like clarification from @Wes as to whether a single player is permitted to have two separate Senate votes counted.

As I and others understand it, including demibear based on a comment he posted publicly in Discord, each player may only have one voting character (regardless of whether they control multiple Senators). This tracks because players must OOC apply using this form, so characters don't retain OOC approval to be a voting Senator because it is tied to the player in the Senate subplot/minigame rather than the character.

No rush to answer as it's not urgent at all (though the question can be answered with a simple "yes" or "no"). Wes/FM answers only, please

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Soban asked about this too and I said:

I think that the fact is effectively the senate is how the players who are really into Yamatai act as a council to guide the faction and the senate NPCs are basically there as convenient masks to make it IC in the way that Star Army Clerks are there mainly to be the same for orders issuing, and through that lens, and based on years of senate RP, it would be a major change to let people play multiple senators as a rule. That said, there's been times when I've had two myself. Like, I think I played Hanako and the senator from Hoshi no Iori and they both voted.

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In conclusion, I think it's "legal" but irregular. It's generally prevented by me using the application thread as a filter.

Well that's not a cool outcome and doesn't make sense at all, but you said it so I'm not going to slip into your DMs and whine about it. Thanks for answering.

This is kind of an edge case. In the future, it may be worthwhile for us to close the "loophole" of bypassing the senate OOC application by adopting or inheriting an existing senator by requiring such characters be reapplied in the OOC thread or by saying they're non-adoptable NPCs of the faction, or by making a rule that limits one vote per issue per player (e.g. pick one of your multiple senate dudes to vote, to avoid a sort of sock puppeting thing).

On the other hand, there's not that many people who want to play senators and we don't even have a full lineup for Yamatai's many systems...we could go the other way and say you can play as many as you can RP. But for me, that sounds like extra work (I don't really want to have to post for more than one).

That's cool. Thanks for thinking about it going forward, Wes.

Wes said:

On the other hand, there's not that many people who want to play senators and we don't even have a full lineup for Yamatai's many systems...we could go the other way and say you can play as many as you can RP. But for me, that sounds like extra work (I don't really want to have to post for more than one).

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I just wish it were a meritocracy both IC and OOC. Frustrating when it's not after putting in more effort than others who don't. Please forgive some little bit of salt.

I personally dislike politics but the ooc bickering has really turned me off even reading these RP posts in the future.

I don't think you should be making posts accusing fellow players of being low effort. It's rude.

If you have a proposal on how it should work, and think people would be willing to use that suggestion, I'm willing to listen as always.

However, we should always keep in mind that playing the senate is a non-trivial amount of effort and we should be grateful that members actually give Yamatai their time and writing. I appreciate the people who are here to make Yamatai better through these proposals.

Wes said:

If you have a proposal on how it should work, and think people would be willing to use that suggestion, I'm willing to listen as always.

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I think my original question articulates how I think it should work. You get one vote counted on any given proposal. If you for some weird reason have more than one Senator then you can pick which one's vote counts. Preferably, everyone plays just one Senator like it's supposed to be.

Normally I would say that a player using more than 2 senators would be alright considering how these are characters, and that in a roleplay having an "advantage" shouldn't really matter, because its a roleplay- the point of roleplaying is to have fun and build a cool narrative with others, not to be competitive with each other. They should be played ICly, and not OOCly, actions that they take should not be dictated by OOC intent, something which unfortunately not being quite followed in a lot of the posts in the most recent senate thread (not pointing fingers, just pointing it out). Given the fact that people seem to be taking OOC intent ICly, and also taking these matters OOCly and getting quite heated about it, I would recommend instituting a limit of 1 or 2 maximum votes per player (Note: not a limit on senators, but vote counts). It's a little unfortunate but it may be necesary to avoid further discussions...

Cmon guys. We really don't need to be taking this too hard, at the end of the day we are just here to have fun as a community together, these arguments only serve as ways to discourage people tbh. If you have something you disagree with, speak to the people in charge of the faction and try not to engage in this kinda discourse... Even if the FM doesn't necesarily agree with you, it's not the end of the world. This is roleplay for fun, not a war.

(Anyways that's my two cents, sorry lol.. I don't rlly have a senate thing so I feel a little out of place... I just feel like it had to be said ^^; )

Lizalopod said:

Given the fact that people seem to be taking OOC intent ICly, and also taking these matters OOCly and getting quite heated about it

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For the record, I do not care about the IC outcome of Proposal 123. I know Wes is fine with the proposed law and so myself welcome it passing. The issue comes with what even Wes' reply acknowledged. That there is an inherent OOC component and OOC metagame to the Senate of Yamatai separate from in-character considerations.

No player, especially not someone who isn't a more senior Yamataian player, should get to maintain two voting characters. This is a strictly OOC question about the maintenance of norms.

Wes said:

This is kind of an edge case. In the future, it may be worthwhile for us to close the "loophole" of bypassing the senate OOC application by adopting or inheriting an existing senator by requiring such characters be reapplied in the OOC thread or by saying they're non-adoptable NPCs of the faction, or by making a rule that limits one vote per issue per player (e.g. pick one of your multiple senate dudes to vote, to avoid a sort of sock puppeting thing).

On the other hand, there's not that many people who want to play senators and we don't even have a full lineup for Yamatai's many systems...we could go the other way and say you can play as many as you can RP. But for me, that sounds like extra work (I don't really want to have to post for more than one).

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Wes has already made his decision on the matter. Harping on it is not helping. Since we are all throwing in our opinions, I personally favor the most restrictive option until we can start acting like adults wanting to create a vibrant setting. The sooner we can calmly and professionally come to a solution to this, the better. Lizalopod is correct, all this name calling and assertions is absolutely doing nothing but creating bad vibes in others. If someone slaps you in the face and then gives you a list of suggestions to improve something, do you really think that person is going to listen to you unless they close to you/know the slap was justified?

The number of NPC Senators that could be made seems like the ultimate FM check that could be created against anything you feel is against the spirit of the YSE or really anything in the setting for that matter. Would certainly help clamp down on people's hard feelings.

Any of that aside, I have concerns about the scope of that post with the speech in it- that sort of dictating the responses of that magnitude of mass of people arbitrarily doesn't really sit well for something that's supposed to be about what your senator is doing on the floor. There aren't any PCs being autoed, but that's still an awful lot of powerposting.

Yuuki said:

Any of that aside, I have concerns about the scope of that post with the speech in it- that sort of dictating the responses of that magnitude of mass of people arbitrarily doesn't really sit well for something that's supposed to be about what your senator is doing on the floor. There aren't any PCs being autoed, but that's still an awful lot of powerposting.

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To be fair, the post with the speech in it wasn’t the first post to arbitrarily dictate the responses of Yamataian citizens from across the Empire.

other than that part of the post was also referencing the immediately subsequent and correct observation about party performances being the basis of that statement.

Also yes, my character voted against a bill I, representing her well-liked predecessor, wrote most of, lol.

Traditionally the people playing senators were asked to be the custodian and improve of their system. Now that we have a system and standards for keeping track of the OOC Managers of setting elements, would it make sense for senators to be played by (or on behalf of) the OOC Manager of the system?

Do you guys feel that players should be limited to one vote per bill in the rare case of someone having multiple senators? Or should we just vote with however many we have based on their IC views? This mostly makes a difference for me since I play all the non-claimed systems.