Psionics (General Information Page)

[Primitive Polygon]

Submission RP Example

https://stararmy.com/roleplay-forum/forums/transmissions-communications.76/

Submission URL

https://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=guide:psionics

Submission Faction(s)

1. Yamatai (except Elysia)
2. Elysia
3. Iromakuanhe
4. Non-Playable Factions

Submission Terms

1. I agree

Discussed this with Wes already, apparently this doesn't exist. A page to define the exact qualities of psionic powers, who has them, and information on how the average character in the setting might perceive such things. There is also a (possibly incomplete?) list of factions who possess technology relating to it.

Obviously kind of a pseudo-magical element, but also deeply ingrained in the setting- I've chosen to equate it more to hypnotism, the power of suggestion, and the god helmet to give things a clearer but still spooky, X-Files-type aesthetic.

No doubt there is some massive chunk of deep lore I have missed, but I hope this covers enough of the bases to be useful!

 

[Soban]

Let's examine the lists and see what matches up.

• Reading of emotions.
• Strong powers of suggestion or mental coercion.
• Being able to distract or manipulate another's movements during a close quarters fight.
• Transmitting thoughts and data.
• Projecting painful walls of 'thought noise'.
• An uncanny ability to track individuals, or know when they are being tracked.
• Controlling specially designed thought-control drones or vehicles.
• Being able to detect intense psychological differences, such as the active minds of other alien species.
• Directly reading the thoughts of the willing (Or made to be willing).
• Able to implant dreams or hallucinations in those lacking focus, such as seeing something moving in the corner of their eye.
• Changing their demeanour in a way that makes them difficult to remember or identify in a crowd.
• Transmitting emotional states.

Some characters (with the appropriate skills) may:​

• sense other characters' feelings (empathy).
• use their minds to transmit thoughts or in some cases data (as one would with wireless internet).
• use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters (brute force psionics).
• attempt to force another character's mind to reveal information (mind reading). Note: victim will notice this.

Game masters may:​

• give characters precognitive thoughts, dreams, or visions as a plot device.
• allow a character to be clairvoyant, anomalously knowing things that they logically should not (very rare).

What is not allowed:​

• Characters cannot use their minds to physically manipulate reality. No telekinesis or fire-starting, etc.
• Passive mind reading (hearing what others are thinking). People's minds are not constantly transmitting thoughts.
• Communicating with the dead (because of course there is no afterlife).
• Magic (unexplained and/or illogical manipulation of reality).

> Reading of Emotions
Covered under "sense other characters' feelings"

>"Strong powers of suggestion or mental coercion."
Covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters" and "attempt to force another character's mind to reveal information"

>Being able to distract or manipulate another's movements during a close quarters fight.
Covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters"

>Transmitting thoughts and data.
Covered under "use their minds to transmit thoughts or in some cases data"

>Projecting painful walls of 'thought noise'.
Covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters"

>An uncanny ability to track individuals, or know when they are being tracked.
covered under "anomalously knowing things that they logically should not"

>Controlling specially designed thought-control drones or vehicles.
Covered under "use their minds to transmit thoughts or in some cases data (as one would with wireless internet)."

>Being able to detect intense psychological differences, such as the active minds of other alien species.
Covered under "sense other characters' feelings"

>Directly reading the thoughts of the willing (Or made to be willing).
Covered under "attempt to force another character's mind to reveal information (mind reading)."

>Able to implant dreams or hallucinations in those lacking focus, such as seeing something moving in the corner of their eye.
Covered under "give characters precognitive thoughts, dreams, or visions as a plot device."

>Changing their demeanour in a way that makes them difficult to remember or identify in a crowd.
This one is more difficult as it's a defensive skill, but I think it's covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters"

>Transmitting emotional states.
Covered under "use their minds to transmit thoughts or in some cases data"

--

That's a lot of text. But the conclusion is the following. All of the powers described fit under our existing rules. It doesn't contradict our existing cannon, I've used some of the higher power aspects of it personally. Perhaps it should be an update to the magic and psionics rules, but that's not the same thing as saying we shouldn't update/change them.

 

[raz]

>Being able to distract or manipulate another's movements during a close quarters fight.
Covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters"

That is quite a stretch. "Attack the minds of other characters" does not invalidate the restriction against physically manipulating reality, which includes any ability to "manipulate another's movements" with mind powers under any circumstance.

 

[Soban]

I disagree, the wording implies that the route is through effecting their mind, not through telekinetics.

 

[Ametheliana]

What do you suggest to improve the article?

Apply everything said in the community meeting.

 

[Wes]

Polygon wasn't able to attend the meeting.

I think the summary was essentially:

• Psionics should be "read only" e.g. they can't overwrite people's minds or change their mental state to a desired one (e.g. you can't make someone else's character feel calm or sexy without consent).
• People's OOC consent is required for stuff that would violate their player rights and if they say no, their character cannot be affected if it would violate their player rights to do so.

I agree with Soban's analysis of the article vs the rules which is why I started the approval timer.

 

[Ametheliana]

> Reading of Emotions
Covered under "sense other characters' feelings" It goes on to have "(empathy)" which is clearly defined here: Iromakuanhe on Star Army Space Roleplay

>"Strong powers of suggestion or mental coercion."
Covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters" and "attempt to force another character's mind to reveal information" revealing information is not the same as coercion

>Being able to distract or manipulate another's movements during a close quarters fight.
Covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters" This is covered under what you can not do: Characters cannot use their minds to physically manipulate reality.

>Transmitting thoughts and data.
Covered under "use their minds to transmit thoughts or in some cases data" Yeah this one works.

>Projecting painful walls of 'thought noise'.
Covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters" This is the one I have the most issue with, can you imagine a player doing this right?

>An uncanny ability to track individuals, or know when they are being tracked.
covered under "anomalously knowing things that they logically should not" That's covered under Game Master rights, not player's.

>Controlling specially designed thought-control drones or vehicles.
Covered under "use their minds to transmit thoughts or in some cases data (as one would with wireless internet)." Yeah this is something that works.

>Being able to detect intense psychological differences, such as the active minds of other alien species.
Covered under "sense other characters' feelings" sensing a feeling of another character is different than Troi on the bridge searching for signs of intelligent life on a ship or in some cosmic space debris. Under new rules a character could "scan" for minds rather than read a feeling. It's like having a map to a library instead of just being able to read.

>Directly reading the thoughts of the willing (Or made to be willing).
Covered under "attempt to force another character's mind to reveal information (mind reading)." Attempt is the key word, here in the old rules, whereas the new ones guarantee efficacy.

>Able to implant dreams or hallucinations in those lacking focus, such as seeing something moving in the corner of their eye.
Covered under "give characters precognitive thoughts, dreams, or visions as a plot device." That's for GM use, not player use.

>Changing their demeanour in a way that makes them difficult to remember or identify in a crowd.
This one is more difficult as it's a defensive skill, but I think it's covered under "use their thoughts to attack the minds of other characters" it's not

>Transmitting emotional states.
Covered under "use their minds to transmit thoughts or in some cases data" making a character feel a certain way is not a thought or data

 

[Deleted member 6144]

Transmitting emotional states is a norian bit, its when they share their emotional state with someone else, so they know what theyre feeling. It in no way modifies or alters someone else.

 

[Wes]

@Primitive Polygon Do I have your permission to edit the WIP article? We had a long discussion about psionics in the community meeting last night and the consensus was basically players want "read only" in that they don't want to see powers (especially player accessible ones) that influence player characters, like:

• Power of suggestion / making them hallucinate
• Making characters lose control of their body in any way

I think the article is 90% good on this already. Rather than make you keep having to make edits I am offering to do it myself and then we can all look over the edit and see if we can agree on it as a community. It's been frustrating being caught in the middle of differing opinions on this part of the setting and I want to make sure I get it right and don't go too far. We can always make updates later but it's also important to get it right and not open the door further than we mean to.

I appreciate your patience and the patience of everyone else on this.

 

[Immortal Cyan]

I was in the community meeting and I don’t agree with the whole “read only” thing tbh. It didn’t seem like we really reached a consensus at all

 

[Deleted member 6144]

I'd have to agree there was not a unanimous consensus on the matter, but some good suggestions put forth on how to resolve the issue. @Wes I'll send you the Norian Vesper information that was sent to Primitive as well so you know what came from me just in case someone has any more questions

 

[Ametheliana]

I was in the community meeting and I don’t agree with the whole “read only” thing tbh. It didn’t seem like we really reached a consensus at all

I don't remember you saying read-only was a problem, just that if someone attempted to that the victim's player should call whether it worked or not.

 

[Immortal Cyan]

I did acknowledge that in the context of player vs. player psionics that the player/writer on the receiving end of a power should always be able to determine the effects on their character, which I feel like the disclaimer covers already. I may have said something about the read only thing but I forgot what it was. It just feels too limiting tbh, especially with what people have already done with telepathy and what not.

 

[Ametheliana]

What have people already done? Enemies and Mishhu have done tons, but putting those in the hands of any old PC or species feels off. For everything I've read here, it's always been something a GM uses as a tool from enemies for players to react to.

 

[Immortal Cyan]

Enemies and Mishhu have done tons, but putting those in the hands of any old PC or species feels off.

 

[Ametheliana]

Okay so any old PC that wrote a training arc into their backstory OR any new species someone is going to submit with these innate or trained in. It's not that big of a leap.

It definitely feels like we're tipping the power balance so that PC can do too much to defeat enemies. As a GM it's hard enough to write difficult to beat enemies so I don't want to see a way to add telekenetics and mind breaking into PC toolkits.

I don't want to seem like I'm hounding at the submission, so I'm going to just back away slowly. And I don't like going at it like this with friends. I'm just not into the submission and thought everyone in VC was in agreement it should be read-only. If everyone is about to make psionic assassins, I guess I'll get in line instead of hold you all up.

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

I do not think we will have to worry about that last part, ame~ There are a lot more interesting things in the setting to make characters of/around and the interest in such concepts in my opinion, over the years, has been middling at best and should remain so even now considering it has been at most 4-5 people out of an entire community even interacting with this topic.

this submission isn't really talking about a psionic arms race, but rather giving more flavour to what it actually is.

Either way, the discussion of how effective the related technologies are really goes beyond what I was trying to establish.

A page to define the exact qualities of psionic powers, who has them, and information on how the average character in the setting might perceive such things.

This is NOT an attempt to reintroduce magic or instant mind control into the setting, this IS an attempt to equate the old lore to psi-ops or psychological manipulation through esoteric means

This is not intended for magic or mind control. The latter is only in there because it's already part of the setting, I did not invent that or intend to use tha

I think a lot of the same things are being said at this point so it might be best to do like Ame and step back now that all has been said and leave the rest between Wes and Prim with all concerns.

 

[Soban]

So I don't think read only really describes what we've done with it either. I do think we should be able to basically no-sell it, but read only doesn't seem quite right to me. Another aspect of this is that while I'm not really in favor of psionics; it is a part of the setting and Prim is someone who has been around for a long time that I trust them to build something cool for the site. So I think we should let them build something cool

 

[Fred]

Someone asked me to chirp in, so, here's what I can provide to the topic. I'm probably the largest user of psionic characters in more than a decade, so, here's my take:

Though this intention is more than a decade old, I would mention that a particular focus on the YSS Miharu plot was to acknowledge the problem that powerful psionic existed in the past and that it wasn't just because the rules had changed to tone down our participants breadth of accessibility on psionic useage that the NPCs out there stopped having their abilities or stopped trying to proliferate them.

Another goal of the Miharu plot, through circumstance and particular McGuffin, was removing a great majority of them that were offshots of any of humanity<s broader access to very tangible psionic prowess.

My current Black Knights plot is currently enacting the objective of getting rid of the McGuffin I previously used.

I've had no plans to change the Umbral mind-affecting psionic capabilities... but then again, those are far removed from common use and very much just straight GM tools. Though I did want to eventually address why Umbral would become less involved in our region of space, making their brand of psionics even less witnessed. Currently a work-in-progress storypoint (which I expect will surface in a few years).

 

[Primitive Polygon]

@Primitive Polygon Do I have your permission to edit the WIP article? We had a long discussion about psionics in the community meeting last night and the consensus was basically players want "read only" in that they don't want to see powers (especially player accessible ones) that influence player characters, like:

• Power of suggestion / making them hallucinate
• Making characters lose control of their body in any way

By all means, edit away, chief. I'm sure there are a number of people on the website far more knowledgeable on this subject than me, and it was always an intention to accept input from others.

Okay so any old PC that wrote a training arc into their backstory OR any new species someone is going to submit with these innate or trained in. It's not that big of a leap.

It that case, it would be totally up to the FMs not to approve that character, and GMs not to accept that character into their plot.

Perhaps the concept of a 'Witch Mod' is something we should discuss, as in a staff member that individually decides whether a player character or new race/faction meets the rules standards? Though the only thing that is really adding to the current rules as written is characters who are submitted with no clear intended plot.

As for the main argument, mind control... The major irony here is that I have no intention to use this myself. I just can't create an article that denies such things existing, because I don't personally have the authority to override past FM decisions such as, well... Wes' original concepts.

My opinion is and will always be that new developments should build on what is already in the setting. To me, this is simply another one of those elements that needs a polishing up to modern standards. Aesthetics are another question, but that kind of changes as per each individual player's perspectives and 'dream RP scenario'.

Another reason why I don't feel comfortable outright restricting mind control, is because it also opens up a bunch of hairy arguments as to what does and doesn't constitute breaking the rules- Mindbreaking somebody on the spot is obviously overpowered and could be grotesquely abused, but what about other common sci fi tropes, such an alien influence giving someone very small subtle urges over a long period, such as inexplicable anger or even attraction? What about if a character is captured and brainwashed over a very long period, but it's still not something they absolutely cannot shake off?

I can appreciate this entire article has a lot of murky areas, I really can. It's written with mystery and horror as intentional choices. If anyone can think of a better way of wording the rules, to specifically define it in a way where it cannot be abused as people are envisioning, then I'll absolutely take notice.

For everyone in support, thank you for taking the time to make your voices known.

 

[Dana]

@Wes @Primitive Polygon

Please indicate whether this is still intended for review, on hold, or abandoned.