Should there be research and development costs?

[Strangelove]

Recently there has been a trend towards people designing guns, most of which end up being used by the creator himself/herself and no one else. From an OOC perspective, it may not be such a good idea to have so many people running around, as custom weapons are a staple of Mary Sues. IC-wise, having so many people coming up with personally-designed weapons doesn't float well, as construction requires precision machine tools, materials testing, and so on. Custom weapons should cost quite a bit, instead of being "free" like they are now. I recommend we should have some sort of system where the creation of an item blueprint (i.e., making it canon) costs a set amount of production cost-per-unit.

Some may argue that requiring capital may stifle creativity, but I see the potential for RP: If an inventor has a good idea, they can meet with investors or corporations and make a sales pitch attempt to get it to sell, just like in real life. It also encourages investors/corporations to roleplay more in their attempt to seek out purchasers for products and establish trade contracts, rather than simply creating anything that it can get approved on the technology forums.

Solo inventors aren't the only potential problem, though. The concept of every corporation having seemingly bottomless research funding doesn't really seem like a good idea in practice. Take the Carthage Project, which has been trying to produce SAoY-grade starships and droids, despite the fact they only have a tiny fraction of the income realistically needed to develop that technology. While OOC non-approval has stifled such occurrences, I think we should have a more precise system than whether it "sounds powerful or not." Thus my proposal:

Personal Equipment Design Capital: 50 SRPpu
Mecha, Fighter, and Droid Design Capital: 100 SRPpu
Starship Design Capital: 200 SRPpu

SRPpu (SRP per unit) is the cost of one production unit. Thus a gun worth 10 SRP (1000 credits) each would cost 500 SRP (500 000 credits) to design.

If a design is directly based on currently existing design templates, the developer will receive a 40% discount on total research costs. Nations that invest in corporate research, or corporations that invest in individual inventors will receive a discount of 20% of on research costs in comparison to self-made designs. Effects are cumulative.

 

[Abwehran Commander]

I like the idea of having research cost, but the system suggested just feels a bit weird. It might be the fact I just got out of class, but it seems too complicated. Isn't there an easier method of doing this?

 

[Doshii Jun]

I see the potential for RP as well ... but is it worth trying to create for something that might not be used? What you need are players entirely devoted to a corporation, or so I'd think ... I'd love to invest more time into Xenedine, but I don't have that time to give.

The easiest thing to do is just to disapprove custom weapons, I think ... and Wes tends to lean toward simplicity when it comes to such systems.

Or, as you suggest, just limit who can develop weapons and starships. No more of this one-person crap and just limit it. But that goes against Wes' general idea that quantity IS quality, as it enriches the universe, used or no.

*shrugs* I'm kind of on the fence, but I'd rather just have things disapproved.

 

[MoonMan]

As far as I know, the only player company to have more and one active participant is NAM, breaking in with a MASSIVE two people. Although, I will admit I haven't done much research on other companies...

I'm not really sure what to think either. You don't want to inhibit a players ideas, yet on the other hand, less clutter means less problems.

 

[Fian]

breaking in with a MASSIVE two people.

Three actually, if you count Wazu.

I agree that producing custom weapons should have their costs increased. But not so for mass producing corporations who already have their 24/7 inhouse research and development teams. Perhaps the R&D costs can be waived if the object is about to be produced in large numbers, say, 40. This might have the inventor search for prospective PC buyers to lower the cost, and also to further intergrate the weapon ICLy. Carthage cant afford to produce three ships, let alone 40.

trend towards people designing guns

*Hides the ESG and HHG.

 

[zephyrite]

I like the idea of, say, making a sales pitch to a producer. For one, the more useful the weapon, the more a company will want it, just like in real life. This will reduce the number of custom weapons considerably.

However, I think that designing a weapon should be cost-free. Hey, its creativity, and discussing the plausability of a weapon is half the fun. :3 Once the weapon is sufficiently worked out, then the player makes a pitch to the company and from there, everything falls into place. If the company likes it, it pays for manufacturing the weapon. If the pitch fails and the player really wants the weapon, I would think that he could manufacture it himself by paying a sum of money for it.

I think that seems fair enough.

 

[Zack]

This is retarded. Most if not all of the R&D would take place on a computer system. Provided the character has access to a computer system a ship can be designed virtually cost free. If any SRPs are going to be spent then they are going to be spent building test ships and a system is already in place for that.

Besides, the current SRP system is supposed to be there for ease of use as well as cutting down on ship numbers. If you start adding costs for RnD then it is only logical to add costs for upkeep of ships, production facilities, RnD Labs, Logistics, Ect. This setting is not setup for a full blown RP system like what you would see in 40k or d20 modern so keep it simple and if it isn't broke then don't fix it.

Edit: While I'm at it single people design custom-esque guns in real life all the time funding or no funding. I've seen designs for all manors of Glock variants and a variety of rifles done either on paper or on a computer without any funding beyond the materials they used to write with.

 

[Abwehran Commander]

Zack does have a point.

 

[Wes]

I think it's primarily the manufacture and testing that requires the most costs. Anyone with the right tools (and it doesn't take much) can make a rifle...but it takes serious testing and prototypes to make a quality rifle. Additionally, if something is going to be mass-produced, you'll need to build (or a least configure) an assembly line (expensive).

 

[Doshii Jun]

Zack has a point, but it's missing the target. And he could be a bit less gritty-sounding about it.

The point of the system would be to limit custom weaponry, i.e. submissions, that could be abused. Things that while they seem harmless come from only one person, with the intention (or basic result) that they are used by one person, for cool factor.

The current rules would work if they're enforced. That means more time put into roleplaying such weapons being worked out and purchased by manufacturers, such as when Miles Gunn sold several submissions to KFY. If the weapon's that important, it can survive such a roleplay.

 

[Zack]

Most products made in this setting, at least by NAM, the NDI, and KFY from what I understand would not use an assembly line. The typical tools for construction generally end up being vats of nanomachines or the sci-fi equivalent of rapid prototyping machines. Both of which would only need the specifications of the device in order to build it. Provided that you have the machinery, construction of a particular device would not need anything more than the blueprints which could be made on a computer.

And if I am not mistaken there is already a system in place to cover the costs of construction equipment (starbases?)

And what is the harm of having a custom gun? Especially if it has been approved? Most of the 'content' generated through the approval process doesn't see much if any role play anyways and a custom weapon will at least make it into an RP setting if only by one character. The system in place already should prevent people from saying that their custom weapon is widely popular, keeping continuality within the storyline.

 

[Doshii Jun]

It's not popularity. It's Mary Sue-ism. That's what you want to prevent by making custom weapons harder to use. And the weapons barely contribute to the community -- we can't all use them. A mass-produced contribution is much more beneficial.

 

[Wes]

I don't mind a little Mary Sue-ness I mean, the point of the RP is to have fun, and playing a Mary Sue type character can be enjoyable. At the same time, the character and his/her items should not be uber--that'd be unfair.

I don't have much room to talk bad about Mary Sue characters -- Hanako certainly scores high on the online Mary Sue test.

And the weapons barely contribute to the community -- we can't all use them.

This is true. For a while I was frustrated with Fred over the Miharu-class. It's a great ship design, but there's only one which means nobody else can run plots using it. Uniqueness can be cool, but it'd be more kind (to fellow players) to produce multiples--even a very limited, collector's series would be cool.

 

[Zack]

Why ban custom weapons? Why bother even making it harder than it already is to get something new approved?

Custom weapons do contribute to the setting and someone obviously wanted to make a custom weapon so why not let them enjoy the fruits of their labors?

Then there is the view that a mass produced contribution is not more beneficial. I will say this on the grounds that many mass produced items are simply not used or go through the RP with only a brief mention to their exsistance somewhere. A custom weapon used by only one character will be used frequently and be distinct in RP, giving that particular RP more individual flavor.


Edit: Ok, I typed this up as Wes was posting and I know I should edit it to better reflect where the discussion is now but I'm tired and there are classes tommarow.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Don't ban them -- just implement the rules that are already in place. I agree with that. And though the individual RP might be richer in experience for one or two players, it still can lead to abuse. That's what you have to watch out for.

The big benefit to customs is that they could lead to mass-produced. That's cool. But it should be RPed out. That's all I'm asking for -- more RP to show this stuff off.

And you meant to say "Then there is the view that a mass produced contribution IS more beneficial."

 

[Strangelove]

Why ban custom weapons? Why bother even making it harder than it already is to get something new approved?

Custom weapons do contribute to the setting and someone obviously wanted to make a custom weapon so why not let them enjoy the fruits of their labors?

Then there is the view that a mass produced contribution is not more beneficial. I will say this on the grounds that many mass produced items are simply not used or go through the RP with only a brief mention to their exsistance somewhere. A custom weapon used by only one character will be used frequently and be distinct in RP, giving that particular RP more individual flavor.

Right now approval is simply a matter of "if it's scientifically plausible and isn't a handheld anti-tank rifle, it's basically going to be approved." I wouldn't bother suggesting this system if the approval system were filtering everything out, already. The problem is reviewers can only see the statistics, but not it's intended use or the economics behind it.

With the current system, having something approved means most characters will automatically conjure up their custom weapon and ignore the manufacturing, research, time, and testing aspects. This current system is effectively handing out free custom-built weapons to certain players.

P.S. -- Are you sure starbases cover equipment construction? That doesn't sound right. If every person could have even "just one" weapon free of cost, research and testing done by computer for them, then that could basically shut down the weapons research industry in one fell swoop...

 

[Zack]

I got the impression from Tom that something had been worked out involving star bases and starship production but I'm less sure of that now.

And what is wrong with handing out free custom built weapons? The KS system is largely unused and most characters would have access to the facilities to produce the weapon they desired be it an actual construction facility or just a bunch of nanomachines from the starship they are on. Having a custom weapon for free does not hurt the RP. It would be better for players to RP out the construction but that should be at the discression of the GM and the Player because this site is about RP. Weapon design and the like would be largely a player by himself and maybe some interaction with other people for ideas at best.

As for shutting down the weapon research industry... even the RPs I've done with Wes involving weapon design have been people talking to a computer and the computer doing most of the work. I believe I remember other RPs involving bioweapon RnD being a QnA session with a computer. This is already part of the weapon research industry.

But to be less ranty, we don't need to force people to do RP they may not want to do. Let people decide if they want to RP out those aspects of creation because it may not be the mood of RP they are trying to set.

 

[Wes]

And on a related note, it's okay for non-roleplayers to submit stuff for possible inclusion into the SARP universe. Not everyone has the time or inclination to RP, unfortunately. But, if some non-RPer wants to donate art, tech ideas, or any other helpful intellectual property I'm all for it.

 

[DocTomoe]

Icly, there are computer systems which would be able to construct a working digital model of a device and tell you if the thing would work within a few seconds.

R&D in the SARP is this:

"MEGAMI, would it be possible to create a gravimetric coil inside of a mug sized container and fix it upon a person's pants to create the ultimate zero-g wedgie machine?"

"Yes, it is possible to achieve a wedgie of 50 lbs of pressure applied upon the individual's undergarments."

"Splendid! Please create a unit which would achieve this, and create a holographic screen between myself and my intended victim, tee-hee."

As for guns, it takes a bit more knowledge, but it is still nearly as easy.

 

[Zakalwe]

I personally think the concentration would be more on the ammount of time needed to design a piece of technology rather than the related resources - which as pointed out are limited in a time when the entire molecular structure of potential machines can be mapped on a computer.

In fact the largest thing I see as a problem with current tech submissions is that the character (IC) doesn't seem to have had reasonable time to design the technology. Any system should take this into account.