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Star Army of Yamatai: Planetary Warfare

Wes

Wes

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I want to talk about the way the Star Army of Yamatai fights on planets. Notice I didn't say "the way the Star Army of Yamatai fights on the ground." There's a reason for that: We have anti-gravity technology. We're not locked to the ground. So our military must reflect this.

On Tanks: First, Star Army Army doesn't have a need for hovertanks. We have the technology to make our tanks fly so our tanks should fly and therefore they should be more like gunships. So instead of armor rolling around the battlefield we should have hovering air support in the form of heavily armed heavily-armored ground attack craft. We don't really have this (the NMX do, see the Shredder) yet so we've been using turreted starfighters that are able to hover (the Hayabusa). Perhaps some of these craft could have landing legs and basically be mecha.

On Infantry: Because of the varied and dangerous environments infantry fights in, it's necessary to have them equipped with power armor suits. These are also great for making them someone tank-like in their own right with high-powered weapons and hardened defenses and shields. Star Army infantry units can fly, too. It's the Star Army's doctrine to support infantry with air support. Currently the rule of thumb is to deploy 1 starfighter (like the Hayabusa) for every 20 planetary soldiers. Soldiers need transportation and logistics support.

Space Superiority: Ships in orbit easily dominate most planetary forces. Planetary Warfare requires that the space above is secures in advance and stays secure.

Situational Awareness: Star Army soldiers should able able to hand-throw a fist full of small UAV drones that will laser-map the area, quietly follow around target, etc. Drones are an area that needs work and art. Other methods include sensory fog and data from ships and fighters nearby.
 
What about the wet-navy? oceans are generally valuable for their ability to float hulking armored monstrosities ('launch platforms') on it that could probably fire anti-orbital missiles and aero-space craft carriers. Also destroyers make useful artillery.

What I'm trying to say is: You could make your wet-navy fly with anti-gravitics. What about an aerial wet-navy?
 
I don't really see an need for Yamatai to actually have a wet-navy. Especially since a few of their space vessels are actually capable of moving underwater.
 
I'm actually much on the same page as Wes on this one, and I've actually put some thought in this before.

However, I'd motion that wheeled vehicle can still be of some use. First off all, they're probably speedy/relatively energy efficient when on flat terrain. They probably cost less. It might arguably be a low-emission way of moving around. Also, typically units that are off the ground are easier to detect.

Another notion is how people (you included, Wes) seem to enjoy retro. It might be more logical to go for the high tech, but sometime the gritty stuff can feel more engaging when it involves more stuff on a base you can better relate with.

The same actually goes with power armor. I've known several players whom are not all that fond of needing to gird themselves in power suits in every sortie considered dangerous, even if it's imminently practical to do so.

For armored vehicles, one concept I once thought about was something I called 'the Ant'. It had a roughly insectile modular layout where the head would be the cockpit, the central 'thorax' part where six legs and a dorsal turret would be mounted, and the abdomen wihich would be the personnel carrier portion of the mecha (for 6 people).

I figured it'd be legged and be able to move over rough terrain that way - and given anti-grav, way more than that. I figured it could lock its legs in a certain posture to then produce wheels/tracks for more conventional ground locomotion. Lock legs in a different posture, use the wheels as makeshift VTOL propellers, add some anti-grav and you get an aerial 'fly ant'. I imagined the turret fielding the equivalent of 4 LASR-like railguns and a graviton beam for some firepower and utility.

I didn't go for it because it felt like a bigger, convoluted version of a GitS Tachikoma; because it didn't bring much as a glorified APC, and because I couldn't figure out a good way to have people move internally from the carrier module to the cockpit compartment without making it silly (tubular-crawlway) or making the vehicle much larger than it was pictured being.

The other more practical refinement I piddled on was the dropship concept the Himiko-class introduced, in which the auxiliary ship was supposed to serve as a mobile field base. Design-wise, it's kind of awkward, though: so many shuttles have easy access to sublight/FTL speeds that any somewhat-bigger state-of-the-art dropship packing the same practically becomes an independent starship in its own right. It's kind of frustrating to want to design intelligently for Yamatai and just come up to this wall of design inconsistencies.
 
Given that a power armor clad soldiers is pretty much a light tank. I do not see the need for a true tank.

At least not for Yamatai. Given the distinctive role that PA have in the Star Army, I could see a heavy PA being constructed to fill the need for a 'tank' like unit.

As for a Shredder Gunboat to provide overhead support. (Not using air because the craft could serve the same role on an vacuum world.) The concept has merit. But it would have to be used sparingly. After all, if you want to focus on the troops on the ground and their combat. Having a Gunboat come in and blast all the enemy would negatively impact the playing experience. If they are going to be used, we would probably want to have the roleplay of the troops be those cases where the Gunboat can not be brought in. Breaching a bunker for example.

As for a Wet Navy? If you are talking a submarine type you have a whole new set of challenges. Energy beams would cause the water to boil/vaporize which dissipates the energy and could damage your own vessel. It has potential, but need a clear definition of what role this would be.
 
Aren't Yamatai's warships able to become submersibles simply via CFS-style propulsion? They don't exist in the water naturally that way, but hell, they can become air-tight just like any other submersible (if necessary).

I like the idea of using V6s (especially the older ones) as ground attack craft and whatnot, as the V8 and V9 series are better suited for spacy combat and excel there anyway. I still like dispensing with power armor sometimes, and tanks have their charm, but there really is no reason to discard one and have the other (respectively).

That said, the Shredder gunboat is a nasty little bastard that's well-suited to be shot from the sky by heavily armored ground vehicles, AA batteries or V6-series craft. [Wonder if they should be called V6 Hayabusa Multipurpose Attack Craft (MACs)].
 
Airtight is not the only thing you have to worry about in terms of underwater vehicles. In space you are trying to hold a rather small amount of pressure out; under water you are trying to hold a rapidly increasing amount of pressure out. Basically keeping 14.7 psi inside a tin can, as opposed to keeping up to, and possibly over, 16,000 psi.
 
With Yama/Dura, Yamataium or even Zesuaium hulls, I imagine pressure's not a big problem. Even if it was, CFS to win.
 
Our tanks will blot the sun! Cos we're drop them from ORBIT!

Speaking for 12th Fleet and XII Legion which is a pure drop legion legion, having some sort of heavier armor to take hits would be useful. I have been using K4 Elfs but they are hardly ideal, being more like IFVs than true tanks. Toshiro's Keiko and Kirie Armors would fit the bill, IMO. No need to make anything new.

*makes note to start swapping Mindy and Daisy armors in XII Legion with Kirie and Keikos*
 
Well I have stated much of this before.

Logistically I have speculated the Yamatai mirrors the old English Empire, in that they likely have a massive navy, and a relatively small ground based army.

Rather then zergling rush, I speculate Yamatai would favor more rapid strikes/ rapid with drawl, taking down key targets, and then attempting to force surrender from a superior position.

I figure Yamatai would be a bit more "air superiority" using fast moving gun ships and power armor soldiers. However Power armor is not infallible, and the way the Gartagen war machine is constructed reflects this(They use a mixture of light infantry, exo armors, and mobile walkers back by air support) .

At the end of the day the most dangerous thing in war is a well trained soldier and a working rifle. (Plus it kind of makes it fun for the role player who may wish to be ground locked infantry).

In any event Yamatai is a techno savvy nation, and they would likely sport a technologically reliant soldier, which means to me EXPENSIVE. so I figure the actual planetary force is likely a rather lean and mean agency stocked full of troops trained in planetary deployments and zero g operations.
 
The more I think about it, the more I think Yamatai needs the equivalent of a Huey: a mass-produced aerial transport craft that can move the power armor troops around and also can be used as a gunship. The LAAT/I from Star Wars was mentioned and I think it is a good example of what we could use.

Also, it was recently brought to my attention that we need armor-scale grenades.

Edit: Also, this craft from Halo is something that could be inspiring, although it's a bit on the small side for what I had in mind.
 
Man. I really wish I were here when the thread was originally made.

In all honesty, though the viewpoint of the original post may seem to take advantage of the high-end technology of the setting, let's keep in mind what happened in Vietnam. Technology is good. What isn't good, is if we think it trumps everything, that one breakthrough invalidates older, tried and true methodologies.

On Tanks, we do need them. Though we like to blitzkrieg, a city will always stop it cold - tanks have the firepower necessary to root out entrenched units with their large High Explosive round. Air and orbital support is simply not always guaranteed, though it would be in an ideal world. Something on the ground and with the soldiers is simply more reliably on hand to aid them.

On Gunshps, I must note that as Fred pointed out, such vehicles are always easier to detect and also shoot down as a result. The concept of a heavily armored gunship is still good however - it's just that a gunship and a tank should remain in inventory at all times, as they have very similar yet distinct and separate roles on the battlefield. Gunships don't have staying power, while Tanks do. One is fast and can go to any hotspots but will leave infantry behind whie one is slow and will stay with them - one is Cavalry, one is Armor. One is easy to spot and shoot down, the other more difficult to find and easier to hide.

The Shredder may look like a good ship at a glance, but it's actually pretty bad. My guess is that when Uso made it, he did not consider the fact that the various pieces of equipment that players get to use simply does not have the firepower to shoot it down - the Shredder is SDR in terms of shields and hull. What's worse, is that I don't think he took into consideration that its weapons are all insta-kill against players. When he took over 4th Fleet prior to his departure and Sigma taking the reins, we had precisely that problem. I recalled that you yourself Wes, suggested he tone the difficulty down.

And Kai is correct - I am working on that gunship that the Star Army needs. There will be three variants - a light, medium and heavy - at the very least. Right now however, I'm just finishing off the ground vehicles meant to support the players and keep their momentum going. The basis of that is in the NTSE right now.

On Infantry, I say the general concept is solid. A few holes are here and there though, such as what Fred pointed out with player simply preferring to be in the flesh and blood once in a while. Honestly, that's pretty fun for us as players. Just not for our characters of course. Though the Powered Infantry can fly since they're Iron Man +1, doing so is not always a good idea - they can get shot down, and another PA hiding and waiting will always get the jump on a flying PA. And as I said before, Fighter/Bomber/Gunship/Orbital support is always good, but not always there. Best to have something there alongside them. Additional deployment of the light frames such as the M9 Tasha, the Keiko and Kirie into squads, as well as the addition of a tank such as the Jinsoku Oni per platoon (30 Infantry Units) would give us a far better rounded force.

A blitzkrieg will always stall at some point, and this improved mix will give enough flexibility for the Long Fight through cities.

On Space Superiority, it's as I've been saying before in my post. I don't mean to repeat myself, but space superiority won't always be there. At least, not in a good plot where the story is dynamic and the players kept on their toes. And it's certainly how it goes IRL - we on't always have fighter-bombers or drones on hand. Here in SARP, we may come into a system and wipe out the initial fleet or space force present, or perhaps they'll retreat to counter attack later. A relief force coming in to help the planet may arrive too. Because of this, assets must be in place as a reliable safety net - it's why I've worked on Anti-Air Platforms to shoot down enemy fighters, as well as new Mobile Guns which may serve as artillery or armor destroyers.

Having these makes it far harder to break the SAoY's back - without them, a clever enemy just simply disrupting the fleets in orbit would even the odds, if not outright turn the tables on the planetside forces.

On Situational Awareness, I need to say that though knowledge is power, it's simply not always a good idea to have that power on hand. Since we're GMs trying to weave a good story and excite the players, do we really want them to always know everything that's around the corner? No! Or at least, I should hope not! If we need them to know something, we'll figure something out. We always have. I'd rather the players be crafty and put effort into searching out the enemy than simply use an "I win" device that gets rid of the fog-of-war in a potentially good match.

*****

Naturally, everything I've said is my own opinion - thoughts on the matter. I hope I've covered everything...and yes, I'll try hurrying up on that gunship.
 
Cadetnewb, I love you. But Heavy ground based armor is counter intuitive to Yamatai's scope of operations. They are a naval based military.

Imperial Japan who has been cited on numerous occasions as Yamatai's inspiration never was very tank heavy. In space war a tank would be a large hulking target.
 
I designed the Shredder, not Uso, and its ability to insta-kill power armors and its difficulty in being damaged by power armors were very intentional.

Tanks simply aren't mobile enough to keep up with the Star Army of Yamatai's pace of operation. Meanwhile, in SARP, a gunship could stay on station for as long as it needs due to lack of fuel concerns and can be as heavily armored as you want due to lack of weight concerns. So you've got the capability of flying tanks somewhere.

In SARP, planetary forces are basically at the mercy of the ships above them. Having tanks isn't going to solve that, and especially not better than gunships that could also fly up to space and fight things there.
 
Indeed, the Star Army of Yamatai isn't much for Tanks and Heavy Vehicles. It just doesn't fit their strategy or their tactics.

In fact, out of many of the Factions in SARP, only the Abwehran Armed Forces and the Gartagen Union Military have any use for Heavy Vehicles. This is because each of these factions have dedicated branches of their military for ground operations: the Gartagen Union Army for the GU and both the Schirmherrschaft and Assault Legion for the ASE.

With these factions, heavy vehicles and air vehicles can see use considering their standards of technology and their cultures are different from Yamatai.
 
In my head, I kind of always saw the Star Army of Yamatai operating with 3 unit categories:

1. The Starship.
2. The Shuttle.
3. Power-Armored Infantry.

When we speak of tanks and VTOLs, I kind of contemplate the idea, and then eye the shuttles and wonder "why bother when we have these?" since shuttles could be outfitted to serve 'tank' roles just as much as 'VTOL transport' roles.

Unfortunately, Star Army shuttles in general are very glossed over. In general, they're very-thin shelled hollow boxes with stuff in them to carry people, and most of their functional components are extremely minimized.

I did make an attempt at having a "home-base auxiliary craft for away mission", which was the Kansashi-class Hoshi, but got mixed results from it. The Bowhordia and NMX Flagship scenarios had it serve very decently as homebase, but it trivialized anti-air defense while being too vulnerable to tangle with corvettes/gunboats.

Dedicating an entire chunk of a spaceship (Miharu) to achieve just that didn't seem worth the expense. So, I figured the best way to follow up on the concept was to diminish the vessel so that anti-air defenses need to be taken more seriously, that it remains outmatched by spaceships, but still serve its utility as homebase while being an auxiliary vessel small enough to fit in a vehicle hangar, rather than being an actual ship part.

It seemed more a more balanced and purposeful approach as far as Star Army plotship styles tend to commonly go.
 
I feel like the Star Army is currently ill-equipped to deal with a mass-medical event like a disease or zombie outbreak. Looking at our fleets, many of them don't have hospital ships and the ones they have only have 500 beds and a global zombie outbreak could affect billions of patients in days. Additionally, having to evacuate planets like we did in the UOC would take huge ships and transport capacity.

In short, while the Star Army is good at fighting, we are not really set up for catastrophic humanitarian situations that could arise.

It would help if we had some sort of unit-size (100-soldier) anti-zombie fort design that was civilian friendly and could be made out of local materials (mud, stone, etc). If anyone will design one, preferably with some basic art, in the next 24 hours, I'll give your designer character 50,000 KS. Speed is of the essence.
 
Wes, Fred, I respect you two a lot. But in regards to this, I disagree for a very good reason - both of you, from what I've seen, focus your efforts on expeditionary forces and rapid strike teams. Not full on planetary invasions. When invading a planet, we can blitz around the surface all we want, cut off cities and temporarily circumvent them for more pressing targets, but sooner or later, we need to go in. Clean them out. And when we go into a city, the fighting conditions are very, very different. It needs to be cleared out, block by block. Outfitting a shuttle with guns and armor, we would get a gunship. And a gunship is great to have, and something that I do want in inventory very much (it's why I'm working on one), but when flying over, around or between the city and its buildings, they can be even more easily shot down than a tank with infantry support. And orbital fire support can be excessively powerful.

Right now, the SAoY is very well suited for surrounding and cutting off planets, but not taking them. Blitzkrieg does not capture cities, and the Germans learned this the hard way. A city is like a massive mudslide that needs to be cleared out by lots of workers - slowly, meticulously and with care lest another one is triggered.

Though Matt is correct to point out that it never seemed to be Yamatai's style, that doesn't mean not having tanks is a good idea either. If it doesn't fit your plot's style, then don't use them. You guys don't need them if all you do is either raid, strike or blitz. A plot like the 5th Fleet really needs them - there's all sorts of nasty things I can have enemy NPCs do to players where orbital or gunship support just can't or won't be able to help them at all, but a tank will.

Would you rather storm an occupied building on your own, where orbital or even gunship support would be excessive, or have a tank sit outside and shoot through walls with its AP round and hit targets you light up as you proceed inwards?

*****

Post Scripture:

I really hope you don't put a good anti-zombie infrastructure into Yamatai Wes. It's really something I wanted to do later on when I make my own Yamataian plot rather than just be a Co-GM!
 
I'm working on a new communicator that takes some of the more recent Yamataian advances and puts them into a handy package for players to serve as the counterpart for the NSP. It's your tricorder and computer in one and I think you'll find it to be very slick.

@ Cadet: I don't think there's anything a hover tank can do that a flying tank (gunship) can't do better. It's everything a tank is, plus extra mobility.
 
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