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Star Army of Yamatai: Planetary Warfare

Rrrk.

Wes, I'll admit that it seems like a very nice article, but there's a lot about it that I also don't like.

1. Inconsistency with the nekovalkyrja's digital mind
  • The neko's digital mind is capable of a whole lot of things that have kind of made communicators a bit redundant, which is why they aren't really all that proemminent in the Yamatai-roleplays. With good reason. This device just seems to continue the trend of covering up the inconsistency, rather than usefully addressing it.

2. Quantum computing
  • Putting a small quantum computer in such a device qreatly cheapens the meaning of having a quantum computer on a larger platform.

    For example, putting on a power armor greatly enhances the neko soldier physically, but it also places at the neko's disposal the AIES - not only perception/informational/communicative tools, but also a quantum computer.

    IES-units have an characterized identity in SARP. Allowing quantum computers in a purely handheld devices kind of slaps that in the face.

    Also, if you get a quantum computer to be this small... what's stopping you to make neko brains that includes quantum computing? It'd set a precedent for even more power creep in the future, simply because it'd make sense then.

3. Overpowered in many respects:
  • Like most of Yamatai's computers, sensors and communication systems... this is really more powerful than it needs to be. It furthers the tradition of putting big-words and big-numbers to make Yamatai look impressive... when in truths it's typically really dang inconvenient for the GMs of your faction to create believable scenarios with relateable limitations.

    This applies to ship sensors, power armor sensors - practically everything. It's been like that since the Ayenee days where you had to write stuff that'd allow the Grand Star Army to compete with the other guys... but we're still hurting from the many ridiculously overblown possibilities they offer, especially when players sit down to see what they have at their disposal, and that the GM tries to make it relatable and have these system compete against each other.

    In several ways, the MIKO computers were a step towards trying to fix this, except that Andrew kind of snatched the concept away from me by deciding to complete it for me, and then snatch it away with the UOC. Still, those were better researched, and a whole lot reasonable.

    Beyond that, there never was any sitting down to place yamataian units in different crisis and ask "how much do we actually need", "how much is indesirably too much". But I won't go into that here. I'm just going to go for that Type 36 communicator.
    • a) If I need serious computing, I want to route demands to a more important PANTHEON node (power armor -> shuttle -> spaceship)

      b) If I want people to communicate, I don't want it to be to unlimited distances. I also want them to be able to reach whomever it makes sense to be reached (planet to orbit, and not planet to Admiral). Longer distances can be routed through more capable communication relays - like a communication tower on a planet, or a ship sending the message through hyperspace signal.

      Seriously ask yourself in a single communicator is supposed to reach a starship in orbit (and if it is, will the transmission be strong? or the messages more rudimentary?) Do you want it to reach that far, or is it just enough for the communicator to be able to contact someone in the same city? Would it make sense to have the communicator rely on another base like a shuttle to route the message to the farther away ship? Would that be so bad, considering that an away team would come downplanet in a shuttle anyways?

      Mind you, the same could go with power armor and shuttles/transport. Right now, Yamataian power armors don't really need transports because they're in general too good. But being unable to make atmospheric entry/escape could be one dependency. Relying on the transport for long-range communications could be another. Limiting running time (Daisy-style battery) could be yet another.

      If you design things too well, you lose out on those dependencies, and why it makes sense to have many units at a commander's disposal.

      c) if I want people to communicate, I want it to be dependable, but not to the point of infallibility. Making things too good break opportunities to engender problems, chaos, uncertainty and encourage complacency rather than more gritty alertness, cleverness and professionalism.

      Situational conditions like weather/being underground can worsen matters, and demand trying to contact people later on (story material). Jamming can require people to move out of the area to be able to contact allies... or move into such an area to rescue a unit that contact was lost with and might really need relief.

      d) Making the device too high-tech (it's display mode) equals that being state-of-the-art also makes it hard to service in the field. Sometimes the best engineering solution is the simpler and rugged ones, rather than the most technological ones.

      Being field-serviceable gives techs the opportunity to repair broken devices. Tweaking encryptions to be more slippery should be more something a person good at communication achieves that the device would give the proper tools to provide such, rather than being done all conveniently automatically.

      e) mental backup recording being tied to such a device is -- gah. Don't do it. It's bad. For obvious reasons. Retain the value of the medlab in a mothership/homebase, and the present "as long as my unit survives, I might be restored to life" condition Yamataian soldiers presently face. Making it more convenient than that greatly cheapens the consequences of death.

      (and arguably if a small communicator can do it, larger non-medlab facilities like power armors could manage it. Reaaly REALLY bad)

      f) I'm okay with a lot of the apps being available on the device, but I think several of those which have far longer range should depend on an uplink to a more powerful 'server unit' (i.e.: shuttle). Again, inter unit dependencies - which is, I might add, kind of the point of PANTHEON networks.

I like Yamatai being the top state-of-the-art thing too... but if you push it too far, it just ends up looking silly and impractical for those arbitrating the narrative... then the system won't look all that credible because GMs will no doubt force the devices to be faillible/not use it to its full (actually undesirable) potential (like it is now with most of our ship/power armor sensors).
 
1. This submission is not just for Nekovalkyrja soldiers. If there are redundancies with the neko mind, they're probably there for the humans and Kodians, etc who will use it.

2. Tiny quantum computers are everywhere already, for example in the isolated computer pad. They're the most common type of computer in Yamatai and can be found in home appliances to children's toys.

3a. You can still contact your ship if you need more computing power.

3b. The unlimited distances is based on the quantum entanglement's characteristics. These are already canon (see Lazarus Modem) and Star Army IES systems have been using them to communicate since SARP was created. Also, Type 29 communicators can already transmit to ships in orbit via subspace.

3c. These communicators can still be jammed in theory, AFAIK. Just not conventionally. I'm not really clear on this point though. But again, the tech already exists in the setting.

3d. Having a screen would make the device more fragile. The idea is to make a device that species of various form factors can all use. So the screen needs to be able to change size (hence volumetrics).

3e. We already have real-time remote backup capabilities for all current model Nekovalkyrja via SPINE, and presumably other species via SPINE surrogates like the fighter pilot brain-scanning headbands that allow mind operation of equipment for non-SPINE pilots. Visiting the medical lab more than once (for setup) is already unnecessary.
 
Wes, in your attempt to be right, you're not seeing the point.

I'm not arguing. I'm pointing out a fact that has plagued us for years, and that the thick card you're calling our 'future communicator' just further compounds.

Yamatai and its Star Army is already powerful. It doesn't really need to be even more souped up. What it means is for its foundation to be more intelligently built, rather than piling cool thing upon cool thing until it gets all creaky.

And - surprise surprise! - this doesn't come from me: you're the one whom said that awhile ago: "Don't design your submissions so well that they won't be infallible - it robs you of opportunities you can provide your players"; "Yamatai doesn't need more powerful submissions, rather it needs better designed submissions".

Sorry. I guess it's not all that pleasant to read when those phrases are not convenient. But truth is that we've been sitting on our hands for a long time with Yamatai's tech not doing things we told ourselves ought to be better-thought-out design directions.

Example: You're the one whom said we ought to eliminate CDD-transit from ships in Yamatai, and have Hyperspace Fold fill that gap. In fact, you seemed really keen on it. And today, years later, ships still have CDD FTL speeds entries.

Using precedent to motivate why something ought to be allowed isn't necessarily the best move; neither is necessarily pointing our real-world examples. The best move - I believe - ought to ask the harder questions: "How does X item/tech/concept/capability affect my players, how it enhances their experience, what are the pros/cons presented by the possibilities brought about, how do they help me as GM, and how do they support the stories/scenarios of me and other GMs creating other roleplays in this community?"

Mind you, I'm supposedly a narrativist and you're a simulationist according to that nice GNS article of yours you brought up to me recently, so we can both look at this and see different things... but I'm not just spouting nonsense here. If it is, then it's nonsense that's plagued both you and I and several others for more than five years.

Also, I apologize: it seems I entirely derailed this thread. But it seems more and more about design philosophy for Yamatai than anything else as time goes on, and if we're going to design further for Yamatai... as a Yamatai GM, I'd like to push more towards credibility rather than pushing suspension-of-disbelief... because in the end, all of this is done for the people we cater to.
 
Okay, here's my issue: I'm trying to make the Star Army a real sci-fi military with more futuristic components instead of the chrome-painted 20th-century military it currently feels like. This means it should have some stuff that's "out there." With the communicator, I used existing tech in a novel way that I think is the logical progression and a good replacement to the old communicator (which is now nearly 6 OOC years old). Other than the range, questionable jamming, and the brain scanner, it's not that different from the one we already have. And I'm willing to remove the brain scanner and maybe limit the range if I have to, and I'm also willing to talk about if/how it could be jammed. But as a GM, I'm happy to have it in my RP. In fact I can't wait for it, it's damned cool.

You're the one whom said we ought to eliminate CDD-transit from ships in Yamatai, and have Hyperspace Fold fill that gap. In fact, you seemed really keen on it. And today, years later, ships still have CDD FTL speeds entries.
Click to expand...
Star Army's membership voted against it in a sitewide poll.
 
...well, I can't say I'm thrilled, but it seems like you've thought this through. I'll leave this alone then.
 
I removed the brain scanner.

Semi-related: Another tech that hasn't been updated in many years is Yamatai's teleportation units. I was thinking perhaps in the future we could get ones that are less violent on the surrounding area. I'm still pondering on what would be useful and fair improvements, so if you have suggestion's I would like to hear them. Side note: The NH-32 project kind of petered out but they were supposed to Nekos with built-in generators and teleporter units.

Speaking of toning down, I think we need to remove stealth from many units. If you want to talk about tech that gets in the GM's way, I would put forward invisibility being a huge pain, especially when both sides (NMX and SAoY) are using it and nobody can see each other!
 
@Teleportation:

My thoughts on the subject mostly revolve around my designing of the M15 Kishi. Namely, the Kishi is heavier - enough to disqualify it from being able to use a teleportation module.

For awhile, I was trying to circumvent that roadblock, and either hatch better teleport tech, alternate teleportation-like tech (i.e.: mishhu phasing) or decide to purposely not install teleportation tech.

Rather than make a complete push for a more powerful all-around suit, I decided to go without. I had a few reasons for deciding that:

1- It kind of cements the Kishi as a Daisy/SARAH successor, while not taking over the very-lethal-speed-demon role the Mindy has.

2- Teleporters were supposed to be rare. Not furthering the use of them so much lends credence to that rarity.

3- Not relying on teleporters creates more dependency on carrier vehicles like transport shuttles for longer voyages/insertions.

But even so, that didn't dispel how teleportation could be a needed plot-device. That made me consider the experimental teleportation device that had come with the Asamoya: something that was home-base mounted, rather than mounted on an individual power armor.

The more I thought about that, the more it appealed to me. If teleportation modules are so high-tech, so rare, wouldn't it be logistically difficult to have them in use? Not to mention the teleport modules have a huge power draw that the energy intensive Mindy sometimes can't spare during a crisis and that the Daisy can't muster at all. Also, it's easier to use one such platform to send and receive power armors than to field a lot of hard-to-get hardware that you might never see again.

In my attempts to figure out teleportation, my nearest equivalent to it in SARP was the transposition weaponry that has fallen largely in disuse. However, transposition (a tech supposedly tightly linked with hyperspace fold) pointed easily to the concept of scooping out a sphere including the power armor, and transposing it to another location.

That made me think that hyperspace-capable ship could have these transposition chambers that power armor could step in, and be transported away elsewhere. Some limitation and hazards would apply to make that process apart from Star Trek transporters.

Overall, it just seemed to make much more sense to have the ship with the hyperspace drive do the teleporting, rather than the power armor. Also, this uses an established setting precedent - transposition - and creatively employs it in its less controversial 'utility' function.

So, that was kind of my plan.

@Stealth:
Recent conflicts in my plot have made heavy uses of stealth... and it can indeed be a double-blind game.

I'll say this first: I love putting invisibility in the hands of those whom will use it competently. But invisiblity should also not be made trivial. It has limitations.

The first is that thermoptic camouflage, as established so far in the setting, is using a mimetic surface to project what the power armor sees directly opposite to it. That kind of projection may look perfect, but it only really reliably works towards one point of view. If you try to look completely invisible to someone in front of you, another person to your side is not going to see quite the same 'invisible' picture.

That's why most of the time the best visual camouflage achieves is transparency rather than true invisibility. Think 'Predator' camouflage.

That kind of camouflage gets easily spoiled if you need to move quickly. Another thing that can defeat it is light sources: you may project a different image over yourself, but this doesn't prevent light from having you cast a shadow. That shadow is a potential giveaway if you're not careful, so, hiding in shadows on top of that can be a good plan to insure you're harder to detect.

Another caveat I take into account is that for most camouflage to be effective advanced radars (i.e.: AIES), you typically need to turn off anything having strong emission: such as your barrier system. So, while you're being stealthy, you don't have that layer of protection. If someone catches you, you're going to be vulnerable.

Counter-measures and drones are equipped on power armor for a reason. Flares can not only fool heat-seeking missiles, but also cast bright lights (camouflage might not adapt to rapid shifts of light too). Chaff also help fool homing warheads, but they can also spoil local communications. Nodal bits and tactical drones are also tools that can greatly aid in user perception: if something is perfectly camouflaged from one angle, it might not be so well concealed from another. Also, environmental situations like smoke, muddy ground, wading in water, snow, or getting overly covered by something can also thwart camouflage - invisibility doesn't mean the environment doesn't react to you; enter smoke grenades!

On top of that, power armors in Yamatai have their onboard quantum computers. An AIES can look at data/video/a picture and process it, eventually managing to fine any discrepancy -- especially if some visual cue is available (depending on how good, or bad the situation/tools allow). If you have a group of PANTHEON networked AIES, then you have much more pooled processing power... and if they are linked to a parent IES (CIES and better) then that improves their chances of seeing past camouflage even more.

Lastly, stealth is mostly conveyed by a power armor's surface providing a mix of vision/skinvision and projection. If those surfaces become sufficiently damaged, they lose whatever stealth capabilities they could muster. Remember, Yamatai doesn't have much in the way of vehicles that are purely made of stealth material. It's all convenient 'coating' - well, coating is just that: coating.

. . .

So, I think there are ways to make stealth feel credible, ways to make a double-blind game work without being too tedious while also making it much more rewarding to PCs that are on their toes.

If stealth has become 'too cheaply available', then it could be limited. For starter, the availability of said coating. Or the caveat that comitting to stealth/low-emissions means having more brittle armor/a weaker power plant. You can make it so that if you want the full rewards of stealth, that it comes at a price; then no armor is perfect, and high performance becomes a matter of choice matching the circumstances of a conflict.
 
Stealth has its place in SARP, but it needs as Fred pointed out to be used appropriately. That being said there are also varying levels and types of stealth.

For example, when I built the Yusou Type 33 Grav-APC because of its mission, I gave it minimal stealth a combination of its structural design and RADAR absorbing paint. The Yusou offers a minimal signature on sensors, no heat trail from engines, minimal RADAR signature, and the dominant power source for the Yusou is Fusion, why because everyone associates Aether with Yamatai, and it seems most of the enemies or people who don't like Yamatai have stealth detection gear.


As for the active camo these two clips are to me a great representation of it. I like how when Q walks close to the vehicle the image on the other side is distorted. Which makes sense since the system is really supposed to take the scene on one side and project it on the other so something that close would be misrepresented (IMO). The other clip shows the fringe effect and how when the surface is damaged the system fails.

Die Another Day Q's Briefing
James Bond Die Another Day car chase

As for the idea of making the going from Teleportation to Transposition. I find it appeals, because it keeps the tech safely onboard the ship.
 
Just for the record, I enjoy violent teleportation. It gives me another tool at my disposal, as a player, to both use against my enemy, and be careful around with my allies.
 
I agree with that too. Even if the 'transposition' model is adopted... it's just one of those things that made our version of teleportation uniquely ours.
 
@Communicator: As Fred pointed out, as much as we need a new one since the current is getting old, we don't want anything excessive in ability. It'd simply take out all the trouble, which is what we need for a good story. If anything, I'd suggest cutting the range some - the jamming, I hope will be easy enough for GMs to pull off with whatever equipment our antagonists currently have at hand. I hope. If not, then it needs some working on - more fallibility.

The ability for its communications to be intercepted and listened in on is also invaluable to a GM too. It's something I don't want to lose, since I can use it to twist and turn the plot as I'd like. The device could try working with a beam mode that can't be intercepted, but needs direct and uninterrupted line of sight, while its broadcast mode can be broken. I hope those thoughts help. I know it was worked hard on, but I honestly do worry it may make the job of GM that much harder.

@Teleportation: On this matter, I feel that it is best to keep infantry portable teleporter units down to the minimum and have them be pieces of equipment only given to the most elite of soldiers. It should be a special treat for the players to show how far they've come, to make them feel like badasses, and to also demonstrate how powerful a foe is as well. The fact that they are very explosive on their entry is also very unique to SARP, something that I absolutely love - right alongside how the devices can be horrific and gory in their aftermath. These traits or features should remain as they are since in this way, the teleporters would contribute the very most to the story of our setting, as well as fun for the players.

Fred's idea of having a more Star Trek like teleportation platform however, is also quite a good one. As he pointed out, the portable units are expensive and exceedingly high tech - the idea of having one stolen or being lost in battle should be a very big deal, and something that some officers should really sweat over I think. Should they be more widely employed, I feel that these teleporter stations should have the same hallmarks as the teleporter packs. That is, an explosive entry, marking the arrival of a group of Elite Shocktroopers. Even then, they should not be completely commonplace.

It is something very theatrical, and unique to SARP.

@Stealth: My guess is that you're most concerned about Ship vs. Ship stealth Wes. The reason why is because what Fred has pointed out has been the mainstay of ground combat, and it's been very robust, enjoyable, and easy to handle as a GM in my opinion. Assuming this is the case, and from what I know, I feel that the stealth in regards to ships really is an issue. I don't know just how exactly effective their stealth is, but my impression is 'too effective' just from what I do know of CFS and Xiulurium stealth methods. From my perspective - and I may be wrong - they're too perfect.

This means that there's hardly a thing one side or the other even has to work with, leading to boredom for us all. I don't know how, but if there'd be some ways to get around this to make them have some flaws for us to sink our teeth into and work with, that'd be great. On these, I'm at loss as to precisely what to do.

@Tanks: In all honesty, I feel that either I've done a poor job in explaining why they're necessary, or that my previous posts weren't fully read. Either or, I wouldn't be surprised considering their size, so I'll try and make it as simple as I can. Flying has its own significant drawbacks, and isn't an end-all be-all solution. Simply choosing to fly, or not to, automatically gives a combat platform the benefits as well as drawbacks of each. This applies to both Gunships and Tanks - since each has their weaknesses, it's best to have both so they cover for one another.
 
Draw backs are a given. I think what it is Cadette is you have what I call "Yamatai Syndrome". In that you have your own ideas about what Yamatai is, and everybody else has their own as well.

In this case I am kind of surprised to see how many of us disagree with you. It is not that this is a weakness they have, they simply wage war in a different way.

The Gartagens wage war in their own way(They like a combined arms approach)

Luca said it best "Yamatai views the ground as a place for dying and burying fallen soldiers"

Also With Yamatai being so state of the art, and technologically reliant, this would mean that ground operations for them are unnecessarily expensive and a drain of valuable equipment, resources and person, so they would keep a small ground operating military, while maximizing its use, speed, and air. Yamatai is not the imperial guard, they are the Dark Eldar.
 
I'd also point out that the traditional restrictions for air support don't really apply to a nation with super sensors and laser/aether based weaponry. A yamataian ship can, especially with ground based PA support, zero a target from the upper atmosphere, and put a hole through whatever building it's in with effectively zero risk of missing.

It really does change the feasibility of defensive positions when things like that are possible, I think we just need to do a better job as GMs and players as playing to that factional advantage. Unlike traditional airstrikes, a yamataian air support mission can be pinpoint accurate from extreme range, and never put itself in the danger that close air support implies.

What that means is that GMs have to do a good job of giving legitimate reasons the air support can't be had, or they have to provide DAMN good reasons that it wouldn't actually work that way, because players should be putting their options to use much more than we traditionally do.
 
I'm pretty sure we're aware of what the Yamataian fleets in orbit can do Aendri, but I don't think that's the real problem. To reference Mass Effect, when the humans and Turians were fighting, it turned out that the Turians wouldn't hesitate to take out 3 square blocks of the human colony with an orbital strike just to get a single squad. It's fine if we're fighting on traditional NMX turf, but can Yamatai afford to do that all the time? I don't think so, especially if it's trying to recapture its very own cities and worlds.

So we need tanks. And gunships. We can't make do without just one or the other, or the SAoY would end up with an unbalanced and vulnerable force.
 
That's why I clarified the pinpoint nature. A Point defense or other smaller laser on a ship which qualifies as SDR is enough to easily punch through several layers of concrete, I'd assume, and the beam might be no bigger than 6, 7 inches across in most cases. That's enough precision that the buildings themselves would probably even survive, if you were lucky. Mass Effect has no bearing because the weapons used were purely kinetically based, Collectors/Reapers aside. A kinetic weapon and an energy based weapon, especially beam based energy weapons, have massively different potential uses.
 
I feel that when it comes to 'pinpoint' and 'orbital', we only get to pick one. Even if we were using a lesser cannon on one of the ships - an SDR 2 one - the destruction would be pretty bad. I'm guessing that the bloom caused by the planet's atmosphere would still cause a considerable amount of collateral damage. With just a laser, the glare resulting from this alone would incinerate everything in a certain area, even though the beam itself is 'intact'. It'd be like a small nuke going off. Plus, the idea of an orbital beam going all "Independence Day" on a target inside of a skyscraper doesn't seem to be good press for Yamatai. It just sends off the wrong vibe. And to add on top of that, orbital support is not always guaranteed.

I'm not advocating for using lots and lots of tanks over everything else either - I'm advocating Combined Arms. Using everything, working together. Rapid strike teams like the ones we see in most plots don't need to do this, and would remain unchanged. It's just the bigger picture in the background that I advocate being more well rounded out.
 
Eh? If Yamatai wants good press, it would probably do better cutting military spending, and using the extra money to improve its outer colonies and general infer-structure.

But the title is Star Army.
 
This topic caught my attention due to the nature of the plot that I am running at Hanako World. Planetary forces are not a big thing in SAoY due that it is focused on space and this discussion points out that truth quite clearly the love for the current setting. Yet I do find myself conflicted if not wondering how Hanako and other planets got taken over so quickly. Sure there is room in Hanako World to see if it is still resistance and stated in the first few posts that planetary orbit control rules out to dominate in any warfare.

Yet it makes me wonder what the current assets were on Hanako World or any given world to planetary forces and defenses. Is this the weak point of the SAoY? Where they rule in space, they fail at land? When looking at some pages, I do see a lot of mentions of Legion troops being deployed, but where are they deployed, were they destroyed at the initial attack, are they still fighting, and how do they survive each day under an invasion scenario? That is sure something I want to explore in Hanako Resistance, yet I got to say that this thread is an eye-opener for me to see how SAoY looks at its planetary defenses.

Hell, I would like this thread to be re-opened to focus on the planetary forces and defenses as it is (in my fair opinion) a crucial setting within the current war.
 
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