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  • 📅 December 2022 is YE 44.9 in the RP.

Approved Submission Star Army Special Operations

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
Submission RP Example
https://stararmy.com/roleplay-forum/threads/special-forces-collaboration.68391
Submission URL
https://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=stararmy:socom
Submission Faction(s)
  1. Yamatai (except Elysia)
Submission Terms
  1. I agree
@demibear and I have been chatting about this for a little while. Essentially, there's some redundancy in the management inside corps, and hangovers from past iterations of special forces in the SAOY that still exist. Also, special forces are often run by corps that generally should be focusing their energy on other things but need to maintain those forces due to practicality.

A prime example being SAINT having their own (near exact) equivalent of SOFT, which they use despite being supposedly focused on Intelligence rather than direct action offensives. They have to have additional staffing, management and overhead with those managers requiring skills that aren't necessarily a focus of SAINT training.

Several corps embody some special forces but there is no unifying body to make sure that special forces aren't overcommitted to an incident if a CO panics and messages all the bodies separately, for example. Additionally, some bodies use special forces that need redesignation - for example SAINT employs research-based special forces, which for all intents and purposes should be under SARA instead, as SARA is focused on scientific frontiers.

Other things are clarified in this article, such as making the distinction between non-shipboard SOFT teams, which from what I gather are highly trained and professional, and shipboard SOFT, which often are trained after recieving the position from what we've seen in RP.

IC, this kind of collaboration and coordination makes sense to eliminate unnecessary overhead in corps that are currently maintaining special forces that are additional to their regular duties, as well as making sure that their is communication, intel and organisational designations are shared between these forces more appropriately.
 
This suggestion has been implemented. Votes are no longer accepted.

Yuuki

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The US did this, placing all special operations forces across branches under one command instead of different commands among their respective branch hierarchies.

Also lots of stuff is considered special operations like combat air traffic controllers and sustainment brigades. Should anything else go in there like Harbingers or anything?
 

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply and thoughts, @Yuuki!

I know that VANGUARD act as JTAC, but I don't think we have C-ATC or combat support type things on the wiki to my knowledge, but let me know if anyone has any suggestions for additions that I may have missed.

However, personally, I feel that special operations (as far as I've constructed the article) fall under the 'combat multipliers but not vital' category. They're bodies that are important to have, but not something integral to the ability to warfight. Essential bodies would be regular line infantry, intelligence, logistics etc. Such things as ATC and logistics brigades, I would argue, are vital rather than multiplicative too. However, while not vital, having a TANTO, a Ranger detachment, some Giretsu, can make things a lot easier with relatively little resources.

The reasoning behind SASO is to coordinate those force multipliers and take away some of that workload from bodies like intelligence and infantry, that should be focused on their vital services instead.

With that in mind, I'm glad you've made me reconsider Harbingers. They do have special training and engage in operations that are secretive and can likely only be done by them. However, good order and good intelligence are both more vital than combat multiplicative, in my opinion. I'd compare them generally to SAINT operatives in that way.

That being said, BATON is a listed force that I added, which is partially (or mostly) composed of Harbingers! This is because of such things as hostage situations undertaken by partisans within Yamataian space, on captured planets behind the lines, or to regain control of a mutinous/captured ship without destroying it.

These would be events that take part in the face of the enemy, that could be resolved by other means but would hurt a lot more to deal with without a BATON - not vital, but combat multiplicative.

If anyone has alternative ideas, please do let me know.
 

Yuuki

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BATON sounds like it duplicates some of the YSAs counterterrorism functions.
 

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
That's a fair observation. Their article briefly mentions in a sentence that they do some anti-terror functions. However, I'd assume that the YSA mostly operates on established planets rather than going into planets that may have only been a warzone a few days ago, which is the SAMP's mandate and therefore BATON's area. Additionally, I'm talking more about military sleeper agents/cells from enemy civilisations (sort of like what the UNIFIERS are trying to do) than run-of-the-mill terrorists that may undertake actions for a political agenda. I hope that helps clarify my intentions there.

The below article also indicates the YSA is more focused on immigration and customs, too.
 

demibear

Staff Member
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Character Forum Mod
Giretsu training is supposed to benefit all of the SAoY. Though the Rikugun would get the most of it unless someone translates it more for the Space mini-frame infantry (I have ideas).

So I should make a distinction between those in Giretsu centuries (high clearances and romon legion lifestyle) and those who just completed the training.
 

Wes

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I'm finding it kind of hard to articulate a response to this but some thoughts/issues I have are:
  • No one asked Yui if she even wanted this (or me)
  • Wasn't Feyani the guy Yui pulled from Director of MP job and stuck him at a base so she didn't have to work with him anymore?
  • I worry that this disrupts the core of Star Army RP by
    • creating a choice for SAoY players and GMs, neither of which we don't have enough of at the moment, have to choose if their character or plot is "elite" or not
    • This potentially splits the SAoY players
    • characters might be effectively stuck on the side they choose (regular vs. special forces), limiting their ability to move around to various plot ships
    • Regular ships like mine might not get the cool missions anymore because it makes sense to give the super special missions to some SOCOM NPCs instead of the regular forces that Star Army is about.
    • You're going to have new players join, immediately roll special forces characters, and then play their characters in a way that makes no sense for someone with years of elite training. This already sometimes happens in the regular SAoY and with SOFTs on ships because they're player controlled, it will just be that more noticeable and immersion-breaking.increment
  • I don't want Star Army Special Logistics to work for SOCOM
  • TANTO identities are not listed as being known by the Director of Star Army Personnel but I feel there's no realistic way for them not to be.
  • I'm worried about creating another division of Star Army that I will need to run or staff for HR/sustainment reasons at a time I'm especially worried about staffing the Star Army with played characters.
Suggestions:
  • Figure out what Yui wants in the RP and grow this organically
  • Address my concerns about affecting the core experience of SAoY RP from a gameplay standpoint
  • Clarify how this helps forum RP instead of just being wiki complexity and acronym buzzwords
  • Explain who is going to use this or be helped by it. What's in it for plots like mine?
  • The page could include stuff about expanding into the wider Kagami Galaxy beyond Yamatai's borders, I think some of these forces have the potential for being "a D&D sized group of soldier-adventurers exploring new parts of space" and I'm really looking to encourage that type of RP.
Mainly I just don't want this to make my plot and characters and my players' characters obsolete because there's now "special forces" that would be called on instead of the ships we know and love.
 

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
No one asked Yui if she even wanted this
With the new RP-first system, I used SYNC to send messages to relevant authorities. As it's a collaborative body with no new personnel being hired for it, it was assumed that Yui wouldn't care, given it's internal organisation between already standing forces and corps. Nothing "new" is being made, in fact it's supposed to trim the bloat, which should help with forum RP by removing complexity. It makes one body to contact for mission support, rather than 5, 6, 7, 8.

Wasn't Feyani the guy Yui pulled from Director of MP job and stuck him at a base so she didn't have to work with him anymore?
Feyani is the Director of SARA. She has bright ideas about reforming things - this would be her third reformation. IIRC, Yui just had a disagreement about some of those efforts with the MP. I know you don't like seeing MP in plots because you think it's stifling, so if I recall the IC reason for that was Yui stepping in and removing some of the changes, then transferring Feyani. A lot of those changes in MP still remain, however, and she had excellent ideas for SARA, so I don't imagine it was a big scandal outside of Yui not liking certain parts.

Players choose if their character or plot is "elite" or not
I don't think this affects the playerbase nearly as much as you imagine - we already have existing special forces on most postings. There's SAINT and its flavours, SOFT, Giretsu, Rangers etc. As I've stated several times through the wiki article, special forces aren't "better" than regular soldiers. Rangers, for example, are worse than regular Infantry at things like line-fighting, which is the most useful skill on plotships. "Elite" is a word I don't see applying to these forces in most cases, "Specialist" would suit better - like a Technician, or a Medic. I don't see the spotlight being taken from anyone. If anything, special forces will be less popular in those sorts of mixed plotships, because the scenarios they are good in won't come up as often as scenarios that Infantry would be good in, but when they do it'll add flavour. Honestly, SAINT is a much bigger culprit of the 'elitism' problem with their black ships and gatekeeping of equipment - has been for years. Hopefully that's changing soon.

Regular ships like mine might not get the cool missions anymore
None of this should affect plotships, given that GMs control that - I don't see why this would detract missions from plotships. Proximity and practicality are often more important than getting the perfect team in any case. The niche missions are already mostly done by special forces in the wider sector, because the forces that specialise in those already exist, such as SAINT, SOFT, etc. This is just a reorganisation, all the roles already exist. Again, SAINT has been the problem with 'taking the good missions' for many years. If anything, this should help regular plotships, because GMs can quite easily engage with SASO to get support if players drop out mid-scenario, they can get crew special training JPs prior to difficult missions. They can also have spec-ops mission scenarios delegated to them from this single body in the absence of local, better suited forces, and are therefore more likely to earn their secret ops medals, capture medals etc.

You're going to have new players join, immediately roll special forces characters, and then play their characters in a way that makes no sense for someone with years of elite training
Again, this isn't adding new roles really - just rolling together those ones that exist on the wiki as well as those that would in practice. Honestly, I think people being able to do such things as make Officers on character creation makes this pale in comparison. Officers have to give orders to other players, directly affecting their RP choices - special forces will be doing their own thing with the other enlisted forces when on mixed plotships. The same issue you're stating already arises with people playing scientists and engineers in any case. I get what you're saying, but it's easier to play a special forces dude than a scientist with 2 PhDs. Again, those special forces dude roles already exist, this article doesn't change that.

I don't want Star Army Special Logistics to work for SOCOM
No problem. It just seemed like SASL was an orphaned body which was a mix of SAINT codeword clearance and Logistics bureaucracy and looked like it needed a home.

TANTO identities are not listed as being known by the Director of Star Army Personnel but I feel there's no realistic way for them not to be
Correct me if I'm wrong, but current SOFT teams already only report directly to Star Army Command, bypassing Personnel Command - at least this is implied looking at the Command wiki page. I don't mind adding Hanako in too.

I'm worried about creating another division of Star Army that I will need to run or staff for HR/sustainment reasons at a time I'm especially worried about staffing the Star Army with played characters.
This should trim more than it adds in practice, which helps simplify the process of RPing with a number of different corps. In fact, it adds no new command positions. All members of the command unit are already the commanders of their individual forces. It should cut down parts of monoliths like SAINT that are unwieldy to NPC. It also centralises a lot of that problem with many different divisions - just send a request to SASO and they'll disseminate it out.
 
Last edited:

demibear

Staff Member
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Character Forum Mod
As I am the one to encourage him in making this, I will lend my voice to this.

The first part is partially on me. I told him he follow my example of making a wiki article and then doing RP before submitting it officially. I'll have my NPC CC this to Yui since he regularly bothers her. It should indeed be done organically in IC, which I was planning on continuing (I am really the only one on that list that is active).

As Eth points out, most (if not all) of the units included already exist, all this would do (as far as I am seeing) is to unify the source of their missions to being one as oppose from multiple ones if they share the same unit type/mission profile and GMs aren't talking to each other. I also think it might be beneficial for non-GMs that wish to start their own RP threads as well if they want to go do "cool guy" stuff. Less fishing around for who is directing them.

I don't think the SAoY has ever forced anyone to remain where they were in the past. If that was the case, my SAINT operative certainly would not be an exchange officer struggling at being a frame pilot, lol. It's fun since I do want to make him an instructor of Frames if he gets the hang of it.
 

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
I've made the obvious change of having TANTO team members be disclosed to Hanako. I've not seen too much change in the SYNC thread, so I'm hoping we can nudge this along?
 

Wes

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tumblr_mhekxidG2y1qzqt8do4_500.gif


Approved.
 

Ametheliana

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It's been awhile since I submitted something myself so excuse me if I'm incorrect, but is there still a way to include sub-articles that are up for review? Seeing as the Tanto article lists this thread as its approval I was hoping to see a link or mention of it as a standalone article but there is none.

Also, are there other such sub-articles in this submission that went unlisted?
 

Wes

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Sub-articles can be submitted with the main article for approval.
 
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