Star Military of the Democratic Imperium of Nepleslia: Ranks

[Koenig808]

I'm forming a poll to address the issue of ranks within the SMDIoN Marine Corps. All discussion is to be kept here regarding the issue.

I am making this a public poll, with unlimited votes, to last for a week.

EDIT: Ranks can be found here

 

[Centurion0507]

Restructuring the enlisted ranks makes sense. The warrant officer part is kinda strange.

 

[CadetNewb]

I'd like to ask, what are the current issues that you perceive with the rank system we have right now? Unless they're laid out, we're not going to be able to find an effective solution since not all of them may be apparent.

Looking at the marine ranks though, I do suggest we have "Lance Corporal" as one though - otherwise, we simply won't get to have any Terminal Lances around. The Commissar and then Commandant bit, I find odd as well. With Commissar, I think of it either as a Communist Officer (of any rank) or a specific job or role in "The Imperium of Man". With Commandant, that's essentially the highest ranking marine IRL, and it seems strange to see it crunched down like this. We have no other traditional ranks, such as Commander (we can't even have a Shepherd), Captain, Major, Colonel and so forth. We see some of them in the Navy rank tree though, but not here in the marines oddly enough.

The ranks for the Navy seem to be solid though. Overall however, and I mean for both, I do wonder what a Warrant Officer is and how that plays a role here in the setting, as well as how it is IRL.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Restructure both.

 

[Wes]

Navy ranks: It doesn't make sense the lower enlisted ranks are called Cadet. This is a problem that's been bugging me for years. They're not officer trainees, which is what the definition of cadet is. How about Spaceman or enlisted ratings like the US Navy (Fire Control Spaceman First Class etc). Why do the lower officer ranks classified as warrant officers? This is another case of "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what your think it means." Warrant officers are usually some sort of technical expert that the military has commissioned to do some sort of technical job like repair helicopter engines. They're not usually in regular leadership roles like regular officers are. Overhaul NSN ranks to have officer titles only apply to actual officers and add real enlisted ranks for the everyday spacers who cook, mop, paint, and fix stuff.

Navy Rank Ladder Suggestion:

E1: Junior Spaceman (first X months of service)
E2: Full Spaceman
E3: Senior Spaceman
E4: Petty Officer
E5: Chief Petty Officer
E6: Master Chief Petty Officer

WOs: use same WO ranks as Marines

O1: Ensign
O2: Lieutenant
O3: Lieutenant Commander
O4: Commander (small ships)
O5: Captain (ships)
O6: Vice Admiral (squadrons, task forces, etc)
O7: Admiral (controls a fleet or something very important)
O8: Grand Admiral (commander of all NSN forces)​

Marine Ranks: Why is sergeant so crazy-high on the rank ladder? Ditch mid-corporal and move sergeant down a notch or two. Marine warrant ranks look fine. Consider adding one more officer ranks and replacing the term "commisar" with something that makes sense.

Marine rank ladder suggestion:

E1: Private
E2: Private First Class
E3: Lance Corporal
E4: Corporal
E5: Sergeant
E6: Platoon Sergeant
E7: Master Sergeant
E8: Sergeant Major

WOs: same as current

O1: 2nd Lieutenant
O2: 1st Lieutenant
O3: Major (company commander)
O4: Colonel (battalion commander)
O5: Commandant (regiment commander)
O6: Brigadier General (brigade commander)
O7: General (controls NSMC division)
O8: Grand General (commander of all NSMC forces)​

 

[CadetNewb]

One of the things I've realized @Koenig808 is that promotions will make it harder for a player's character to get into plots or do as many things as they like. They'll actually bar a character from taking on certain roles such as being 'just a grunt' again, and it's even one of the reasons why CyborgMoose couldn't join my plot. At the same time, people like receiving promotions from time to time.

On top of emphasizing giving out medals more often, having multiple enlisted ranks is handy for this reason - it prevents IC from getting in the way of RPing.

Because of this, I highly suggest keeping Private Classes Third through First. As for Corporal, I suggest doing away with Mid and Senior and add in Lance Corporal under just plain Corporal as IRL. A third type of Corporal under Lance Corporal would be good, but I'm uncertain as to what to call it. Sword Corporal? Knife Corporal? And as Nepleslian as Shiv Corporal would be, I don't know how people would take that. The Sergeants are good, save for the missing Gunnery Sergeant. Why in the world we don't have a "Gunny" I have no damn clue. But we need that.

 

[Oscar_Geare]

Hello.

Sorry to jump in like this. I've been lurking for some time, but created an account to respond to this. One thing that really has prevented me from joining is my distaste for the Nekos and how the militaries have been organised. Nepleslia is a good solution for the first, but not the second.

I think you should sit down and think about how it's organised first, and not the ranks. For example, when I've previously created a fictional military for a project of mine, I worked out how many guys I would have in a combat unit and broke it down from there.

The base combat unit of my military was the Brigade. These brigades were organised to work independently from support, hence they would have attached Artillery, Recon, Logistics and Air Support. The average Brigade would have a Signal / HQ Battalion, a Recon / Light Armor battalion, 3x Combat Battalions (3x Infantry, or 2x Infantry + 1x Armor), a Combat Engineer Battalion, an Artillery Battalion, an AA Battalion, 2x Logistics Battalions and a CAS Squadron. I went ballsout retarded with these, organising each battalion down to the lowest unit, but I wont go over that here.

Typically we would only deal with an Infantry unit. So lets look at the infantry.

In each Infantry Battalion I would have a Headquaters Company which would include Admin/Planning, Medical, Recon, Engineers and Logistics for the battalion. Below that there were 3x Rifle Companies and a Support Company. The Standard Rifle Battalion was 980 Guys. In each Rifle Company there were 3x Platoons plus 1x Support Platoon. The standard Rifle Company was 180 Guys. In Each Rifle Platoon there were 3x Sections plus 1x Support Section. (See the general theme I went with? To be honest, I've considered removing the Support platoon, but each covers its own role just fine at the moment and I have no reason to). The standard Rifle Platoon was 40 Guys. In each section there were two fireteams. A section was eight guys. If you are interested in knowing the full organisation, have a look at my http://pastebin.com/gcYf4KPt Light Infantry Battalion (sorry, can I do standard BBC on this forum? I hate WYSIWYG )

Right there we have five steps in the Chain of Command:

1. For a Section I have two NCOs, a LCpl to lead the Bravo Team and a Cpl to lead the Section / Alpha Team. For the Support Section I created a new rank of MCpl as its a twelve man section. He doesn't have to be that rank to be a section leader, however it's in recognition of his abilities with a number of different weapon systems
2. For the Platoon I need two leaders. A Senior Enlisted and a Junior Officer. I go with a maximum billeted rank for both of Sgt and Lt.
3. For the Company, it gets a bit more. I need a Senior Enlisted and another officer. So I created a rank of 1stSgt and a Capt.
4. For the Battalion I needed even higher ranked blokes. So I had SSgt and a maximum billeted rank of Col, although most Battalion commanders are LtCol. Maj still exists as a staff officer rank, however sometimes you will see Companies commanded by a Major.
5. For the Brigade, there is a MSgt and a Brigadier, although sometimes its a Col. Like the MCpl is king of Corporals, the MSgt is the king of Sergeants.

As a result, my rank structure goes:
Private, Private Proficient (in rank for a year, completed additional training, no authority over Pte), Private First Class (in rank for a longer amount of time, just an additional pay grade, no authority), Lance Corporal, Corporal, Master Corporal, Sergeant, First Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, Master Sergeant, Sergeant Major (the kingpin enlisted of the Army).

Second Lieutenant, Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier, Major General, Lieutenant General, General.

Every rank has a role to fill and there is no overlap. So the point I was trying to get to in all of this is firstly you should consider overhauling your TO&E. At the moment you have a massive gap wherein you have senior enlisted / Warrant Officers commanding a team of five or a squad of ten or a platoon of fifty. You also should consider recreating these organisations as you've made the first basic mistake in thinking, "Well my squad is ten guys. So I want five squads in my platoon! That's fifty!" instead of thinking: "Well, I want five squads in my platoon... plus the command team... that's fifty five!" (ie: an Officer, NCO, RTO, Medic and ... driver/gopher, I guess). Wes has taken steps to this regard by actually defining what Officer Rank holds what role.

 

[CadetNewb]

He has a good point. Though we've generally just had the ranks as something to put players in, having a 'job' for each isn't a bad idea. It's a lot of work though, requiring us to figure out how we'd want to organize our military in general, but in the long run it would likely benefit us.

 

[Oscar_Geare]

Well, I just had another idea that you should reorganise the fleets while you're at it - seeing as the marines are generally based on fleets, right? - but it would be very difficult as there seems to be no standard across the board when the ships were created.

ICly you can call it the Big Reform of 36 or something, and then begin creating upgrades or new vessels to match the reorganisation that you decide. That way you can have the nice effect of having some old and outdated ships with unusual crew compositions to run a plot from.

Remove the upper echelons of the marine corps and merge it with the navy. Have each contingent report directly to the Captain of the ship they are on, however they can be detached to Marine control for ground operations should there ever be a large scale engagement. This way you don't have two separate chains of command giving contradictory orders. Have only a couple standing Marine forces of... say... 250k. That should be enough to subjugate a planet. Then that Marine commander reports directly to the fleet he is attached to.

 

[Wes]

Recently I discovered a nifty program on Reddit called Flagmaker which is useful for making flag designs. I used it to make a series of rank flags for the Star Army's upper officers, the way the US military has flags for theirs. Since I have the program, and I'm done with Yamatai's, I figured I'd take a crack at making some for Nepleslia.

Here's a flag with 5 stars, for an example:


The number of white stars would indicate the rank of the officer.

After we get the ranks figured out, we could give them flags like this. The Navy could have blue equivalents.

 

[Oscar_Geare]

Okay, here is my proposal.


There are two types of Marines – Marines on the Fleet, and Marines with the Division. Marines on the fleet are deployed to ships and are generally seen to have a higher degree of freedom. Marines with the Division will be the more prestigious role as they are the ones who fight the large battles. Brigades of Marines will be stationed on Planets until they are needed elsewhere.

Armored Fighting Vehicles should be decommissioned. With Power Armor as OP as they are currently there is no use for AFVs of any kind. Likewise, any dedicated in atmosphere aircraft should be decommissioned due to the fact that a number of the Space craft are also rated for in-atmosphere flight. These aircraft should be expanded upon. It’s far too expensive to maintain two separate fleets of aircraft and in a highly mobile fight with PA that can fly at a good degree of c, there is no reason to stop and create airbases so you can land your dedicated in-atmosphere aircraft.


Squad, 10 Men. Standard small unit, however rarely is a squad at full strength due to attrition by injury, death or promotion. Generally all made up of Hostile armor sets, except for squads on special tasking or ships who act as a QRF. The squad is often divided into two teams of five, with a Lance Corporal in charge of the Bravo Team and a Corporal in charge of the Alpha and the squad. Each squad will generally have a trooper who has taken Combat Lifesaver training and an Armorer’s Assistant who is responsible for the maintenance of the squad’s Power Armor.

Platoon, 55 Men. Five squads of ten, with a five man command team. Squads are numbered numerically. Platoon is the most common autonomous unit. One squad in the platoon is generally dedicated to be the supporting squad and will be equipped with Aggressor Armor. The Command Squad is made up of a Lieutenant, a Staff Sergeant, and three Corporals (or below): a Signaller, a Medic and an Armorer. The Signaller is responsible for maintaining long range communications with any supporting elements – ie: The Fleet or Close Air Support.

Company, 182 Men. A Company is made up of Three Platoons, with each Platoon is numbered numerically. There is a ten man recon squad that supports the company, under direct command of the seven man command team. Within the command team there is the Company Commander: a Captain; Company XO, a Lieutenant; Senior Enlisted, a Master Sergeant; a Chief Armorer, a Sergeant; a Chief Medic, another Sergeant; and two Signallers, Corporals.

Battalion, 434 Men. Within a Battalion there are two Companies, a Support Platoon and a Command Team. The Support Platoon will fill any role the battalion requires and will provide them with organic heavy support and indirect fires. The Command Squad of a Battalion is broken into several teams. The Command Element consists of the CO, a Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel; the XO, a Major; the Senior Enlisted, a First Sergeant; and his assistant, a Master Sergeant. The Medical Element consists of a Surgeon, a Lieutenant, and five assistants generally all enlisted below the rank of Sergeant. The Supply Element consists of a Quartermaster, generally a Staff Sergeant, and two assistants below the rank of Sergeant. The final element is the Intelligence Element, with an Intelligence Officer, Captain, in charge with two assistants below the rank of Staff Sergeant. The Battalion is the highest organisation you will see on the Fleet.

Brigade, 1567 Men. A Brigade is the standard large scale combat element that will be seen in the Division. Despite the name, the Marines of the Division are still reliant on the Navy for all logistical requirements. A Brigade consists of three Battalions, a Support Company, Recon Platoon and a 28-man Command Team. The Support company acts much like the Battalion Support Platoon, and provides a higher level of heavy support and IDFs. The Recon Platoon operates independently at the discretion of the Command Team, and often in their individual squads. The Command Team consists of the same four teams as the battalion command team. The Command Element has the Battalion Commander, Brigadier; Brigade XO, a Colonel; and the Senior Enlisted, a Sergeant Major. There are also five Clerks who report directly to the Brigade XO, generally a lower rank than Sergeant. The Medical Element has a Captain as Chief Surgeon, with two assistants reporting directly to him who rank below Master Sergeant. Then there are two Medical Teams, each lead by Surgeon, a Lieutenant, and five assistants generally all enlisted below the rank of Sergeant. The Supply Element consists of a Chief Quartermaster, generally a Lieutenant, and five assistants below the rank of Staff Sergeant. The final element is the Intelligence Element, with an Intelligence Officer, Major, a Master Sergeant, and eight assistants who are Staff Sergeant or below.

The Largest organisation in the NSMC is the Division. A Division is an ad-hoc formation of a number of Brigades, never exceeding three, and is used to conduct planetary assaults. The most senior commander is appointed Division Commander. If there is more than three brigades in a planetary operation, then a Senior Division Commander is appointed to the rank of Commandant for the duration of the campaign.

As a result of the above formations, the following adjustments will have to be made to some ships.

• The Atlas can stay the same, and is given a Platoon of Marines.
• The Blackjack currently has a ‘Security’ component of 50. This will need to be increased to 55.
• The DD5 will need to be increased to 182 so it can support a Company.
• The Orca needs to be increased from 50 to 55.
• The Primus needs to be increased from 350 to 434 so it can carry a Battalion of Marines.

Ranks would thus be as follows:

(However Many Private Ranks you want)
Lance Corporal
Corporal
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Master Sergeant
First Sergeant
Sergeant Major

Second Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Captain
Major
Lieutenant Colonel
Colonel
Brigadier
Commandant

 

[CadetNewb]

I'll follow up on the AFV and fighter comments later, and focus on the ranks and military organization.

I don't think we should follow what Oscar_Geare has put up to the letter, but it's a very, very good example of the direction I believe we should go. Certain ranks should have certain jobs and responsibilities, with some of the ranks having subdivisions of itself for purposes of chain of command, such as there being multiple types of Sergeant. If the platoon's commanding officer, a Lieutenant, is killed, which Sergeant does it get passed to next? I think a squad should typically be just 10 soldiers however - the "Command Squad" will just have the Lieutenant in charge of the whole platoon, and a Squad Leader for that squad the Lieutenant is in.

This would mean that while the LT is in charge of moving the group as a whole, the Sgt under him or her would be more focused on just managing the individual movements of the squad. I'm not going into the rest quiet yet, since this is the core of what the entire faction hinges off of, and should be addressed first.

Now, as for the vehicles.

As high speed as the power armors are, AFVs and Fighters/Bombers are never going to be obsolete. The real issue we have here is that our vehicles aren't made to the same level of technological prowess as the PA themselves - they're typically made with a mindset from modern-day thinking, making them more cumbersome and slow than they would be if made to the fullest of their potential. The truth of the matter is that a good AFV will always be useful thanks to its combination of superior armor, firepower and mobility - the last one is what we're mostly lacking. It's simply impossible that we'll be able to use maneuvers on every circumstance that we fight, so having a vehicle that can mount far more firepower than any PA or light frame can carry is important.

With fighters and bombers, it's the same situation. No matter what, when properly made to fit into the setting, they'll always have superiority in terms of armor, firepower and mobility. Unlike tanks, which stick with infantry and vice versa, fighters and bombers are best at targeting specific threats, coming and then just as quickly leaving.

Combined arms is very important - it's never any one factor that decides a war.

The issue here is that plots focus on PA, and therefore, the articles that we write follow that same vein. Our vehicles could be a lot better, but they're not simply because most people simply don't focus on them.

 

[Oscar_Geare]

With regards to the Command Squad - generally they would all be senior members of the platoon who don't need managing. The Platoon Sergeant works with the Lieutenant to manage the Platoon and might be detached to monitor a specific grouping of squads (ie: If there is an attack, the Sergeant might command the assaulting element consisting of three squads, and the Lieutenant might command the supporting element of two). The Signaler wears a Hostile with an upgraded sensor suite so he can stay in contact with the Fleet / other elements of the ground force and worries about incoming / outgoing communications and lets the Lieutenant worry about commanding. The Medic treats wounded and the Armorer can help the medic / recover downed PA / do battlefield repairs.

With regards to the fighters - currently there are atmospheric and non-atmospheric craft. There is no point to have both - rather NAM should focus on developing aircraft that work both in atmosphere and in space and retire the solely in atmosphere craft. That way they can always pick up and go back to the Fleet and operate from there if there is a small beachhead / no airfield.

 

[Wes]

We really need some feedback from Faction Manager @Koenig808 on our suggestions.

 

[Sigma]

Much of the problem of standardizing the rank structure has to do with the organization of a Marine Shaik. Nepleslia has four Shaiks and each one is a different size. Neither 1st nor 2nd Marines have a wiki page and together contain the majority of Nepleslia's deployable Marine force (excluding garrison and training units). Their large sizes are in keeping with the fact that those are Nepleslia's main fighting fleets. Similarly, 3rd and 4th Fleets are more focused on the frontier where speed and small units are key to fighting multiple threats simultaneously. Ergo, both of those Shaiks number only 200,000+ each and so can be parceled out easily.

Standardizing the organization of a Shaik will also be difficult for the simple fact that no two Shaiks are alike. Each one is built by its commanding officer to complement the Fleet it is attached to. And we have very deliberately made sure that no two fleets are alike.

Having worked on creating Nepleslian units and their organization, the most critical thing lacking are junior and middle level officers for the Marines and Navy. The Chiefs do everything, which IMO, they shouldn't. From what I gather, they are supposed to be the senior NCOs of a unit and second in commands. Or very senior small unit leaders.

Furthermore, the last time I brought up rank structure and changes with some Nep GMs, the one thing they all agreed on was that the names should not all be from real l

 

[CadetNewb]

If they'd rather not have military ranks taken from IRL, I wish they'd say so here. At the least, that way, I'd know their reasons for their preference. The same goes for players too.

 

[Oscar_Geare]

Hence why I suggested to start small. Go from the ships available and work from there, hence the size of the of Platoon, Company and Battalion (Atlas/Blackjack/Orca, DD5, Primus).

Remove the Shaik as a tactical force and instead have it as a strategic force. For example an 'Army' could be anything from two to five Corps, each of which could have two to three divisions of which there could be two to three brigades. A Shaik doesn't have to be a standardised thing. However everything which is capable of being shipborne on standard combat vessels should be standardised.

As for ranks, call them whatever you want. I just used real life things as they are what most people seem to know and it's easier to understand. I recommend using standard names until it's all fleshed out and then you can call it what you want.

 

[Wes]

Nepleslia speaks English and the ranks are English ones with established meanings. If we make up non-standard ranks in English, it'll be a real challenge to keep them from sounding goofy. It's not easy to think of a made-up rank that is concise and doesn't just sound like a position (Platoon Leader). If not real-world ranks, what would you have? I don't think we should put any stock in that idea until someone puts some solid alternative on the table.

Even if the Nepleslian military is, as Sigma points out, terribly disorganized, we could try to at least standardize the building blocks (e.g. company level units) of the myriad of larger groups.

 

[Sigma]

two to five Corps

There is only ONE Corps. The Marine Corps.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/28119/20101014145X_Pecking_Order_CompU.pdf
The Ministry of Defence in the UK released this chart for its service personnel to see the equivalents across the services because the enlisted from various branches weren't sure how to recognize and salute (different salutes between the branches) officers from another branch. For funsies.

Even if the Nepleslian military is, as Sigma points out, terribly disorganized,

I did not say that. Disorganized and non-standardized are different. Each Fleet and Shaik is deliberately different so that one stratagem does not work each and every one. I take this inspiration from the anime Legend of the Galactic Heroes and how the Imperial Fleets (and Admirals) operated. Each had a unique flair despite having mass-produced war machines.

For anyone who knows the series, I believe the following to be loosely accurate:

1st AF (Vanderhuge): The Black Lancers Fleet led by Admiral Bittenfeld as it is extremely offensive focused
2nd AF (Corcyra): Either fleets led by Admirals Wahlen or Fahrenheit as it is both offensive and more versatile than other fleets
3rd AF (Motoyoshi): Wolf Pack - Gale Wolf and his fleet. Need I say more?
4th AASP (Valken): Iron Wall Muller's Fleet, obviously. Both are fleets that have a reputation for sturdiness in combat. And both have Admirals with a penchant for lucky escapes (Valken's hostage rescue, his evacuation from the original Dauntless)

Back to the topic on hand, the small units are "standardized" (excluding plot units) but what is standard isn't always the reality.
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=nepleslia:nsmc:organization

The ideal standard may be a squad of 10 Marines but in a volunteer force, with unequal personnel requirements and inconsistent recruitment numbers, the result is not always what the papers say. This is evident from any study of Orders of Battle where roll calls may say one thing but eye-witness accounts say another. For example, a regiment of horse at Waterloo lists 800 men on the roll but eye-witnesses after the battle said that they only had 600 horses and they wished they had another 200 men. Where then did these two hundred missing men go? Sickness, desertion, battle casualties, and poor paperwork could all account for these.

seeing as the marines are generally based on fleets, right?

Each Fleet has been created for a specific purpose and role. Each Marine Shaik is attached to the Fleet and can operate alongside of it. However, it can also operate independently of the Fleet as the Marines and Navy are two entirely separate branches of the military, not a subordinate entity as most RL Marine Corps are. As the combat arm with the bigger guns and the ones who can actually move from system to system, the Navy is typically the "senior" service. Simply put, they operate in tandem but not subordinate to one or the other. Ergo, each Shaik is structured to fit the Fleet it will typically operate with. Each Shaik is supposed to have 4 divisions at 1M Marines. Does Nepleslia have 4 million Marines? Maybe. It's all pretend.

@CadetNewb - The reason(s) for why people don't voice their opinions are nowhere near the realm of my concern. As should be evident from how I treat complaints about my NTSE work after they have been approved. The basic problem I see is that nothing jives with what RL militaries use. If we are changing the ranks, we need to decide (or be told by @Koenig808) whether we are moving towards RL or other, more original forms. Likewise, if rank structures change and the force org charts need to accommodate those changes, we need direction there.

I am of the opinion that there are plenty of ways to find alternatives. Using other languages with similar cognates is one such route. Or using latin roots to form new words.

 

[Oscar_Geare]

But the original point I made is that the standardised units are really shit. They take no account of any supporting or HQ elements. It basically assumes that the kingpin commander runs his own five man fireteam as well as the Shaik, Division, Regiment, Squadron, Battery, Flotilment, Platoon, and Squad he is in. Whoever designed it made the rookie mistake of just adding up however many people are in the former unit.

Once the organisation is dealt with the ranks can be considered.