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Star Military of the Democratic Imperium of Nepleslia: Ranks

Should there be a restructuring of SMDIoN Marine ranks, and how?

  • Do not restructure anything, it's all fine.

    Votes: 4 22.2%

  • Marine Enlisted: Condense Private 3rd and Private 2nd Class into "Private"

    Votes: 8 44.4%

  • Marine Enlisted: Condense "Corporal" and "Mid-Corporal" into "Corporal"

    Votes: 8 44.4%

  • Marine Enlisted: Condense "Senior Corporal" into "Sergeant"

    Votes: 7 38.9%

  • Marine W.O.: Change "Chief" "Senior Chief" and "Master Chief" to Cadet, Lieutenant, and Captain.

    Votes: 3 16.7%

  • Restructure Marine Ranks, and Keep Navy Ranks

    Votes: 4 22.2%

  • Keep Marine Ranks, Restructure Navy Ranks

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Other (Please Specify)

    Votes: 7 38.9%
  • Total voters
    18
I think we need to step back for a moment. The real reason why we would even want military organization to be something to consider is simply to give players an idea of the role that each one plays. To give the ranks a bit of character. So what if the Nepleslian fleets are all unique? We just need a general range of how large each is and the numbers in them. As I stated before though, I prefer IRL ones; any new ones we make up will likely just sound silly.

As for people voicing their opinions @Sigma , I'll be very frank. I'm pissed. Your blatant disregard for the opinions of others is precisely why there is animosity towards you, and that's not even talking about your inability to take criticism. Yes, we're not concerned about why they're not saying it, but as a GM, you should be damned concerned that they're simply not saying it. We're a small RPing community. SMALL. With an S, an M, an A, and two L's. This means that people's opinions matter a metric F*-ton more than they would in some huge but silly place like Gaia. In the end it's not your opinion that really matters. It's not even my opinion that really matters.

It's THEIR'S that matters - the players, PLURAL.

We NEED them to say something, otherwise we're left groping in the dark and have no clue if we're making something that they'd even like.
 
I know it's frustrating that this thread has less participation than hoped, but please don't take it out on Sigma. His participation in the thread has been great and I think you're possibly misinterpreting his comments. What I got from it is "their lack of participation in something affects them is their problem" not "their opinions don't matter." Sigma can't force players to post here. None of us can. So he's just choosing not to stress about it. It would help if you stressed less too.

As long as we can get the FM to post, we can get this question solved with just the people we have here. In fact having more people involved might just make things confusing. The original poll is pretty useless IMO and I think we should do a poll that allows choices between the ranks that have been proposed.
  • Use the existing ranks
  • Use the ranks Wes suggested
  • Use the ranks @Oscar_Geare suggested
  • Use other rank scale (post your suggestion in the thread)
 
Alright. That was out of turn, and I won't say anything more on that.

The existing ranks are odd, but we've been with them for a while; they're neither good nor bad I think. The Spaceman ones, I find odd and makes 1940's-50's sci-fi come to mind. Oscar's suggestion on the rank and its pecking order, I think is on the right track. Give me a moment to think of something though.
 
My suggestion could be modified. Instead of the Navy enlisted being "spaceman," it could also be:
  • Serviceman
  • Sailor
  • Spacecraftman
  • Soldier (very Uesureyan, but sounds more planetary/Army perhaps)
  • Crewman
  • Shiphand
  • Deckhand
 
I'm sorry, but I'm just not feeling it with any of those.

I don't even know where the suggestion for Spaceman originally even came up, but as I've stated before, I'm more for realistic ranks since I simply don't understand the argument in favor of new made-up ranks. Nobody's really said why we should go for those, and my fear is that they'd sound absolutely silly. For this reason, I'd prefer to keep the Private ranks the way they are. Corporal though, I'd roll it up into Corporal and Lance Corporal; the way I think of them and what they do is that they're simply "Super Grunts" - soldiers that are more salty than the rest, and therefore give only some direction to the rest under them.

With Warrant Officers, I would have the Navy and Marines overlap so that both of them have Chiefs and Lieutenants. The final four ranks though, the actual head-honcho officers, is currently just plain strange to me. General and Field Marshal I can understand, but Commissar is pretty much a Russian thing that's associated with the Communist Party. And I think Commandant is actually the highest rank IRL. That's a head scratcher.
 
It seems to me, that this entire debate about ranks is useless unless we address how the number of Marines are structured. After this, we can form ranks and delegate them to each job.

My idea is for your basic arrangement of Marines as:

Fireteam > Squad > Platoon > Company > Battalion > Regiment > Division > Field Army

With a Fireteam made up of 4-5 Marines, commanded by a Corporal

Squad made up of two Fireteams, commanded by a senior Corporal and Sergeant

Platoon made up of 4 squads, commanded by a Senior NCO and Junior Officer

Company made up of 5-7 Platoons, commanded by a Senior NCO and Mid-level Officer

A Regiment made up of 4-5 Companies, commanded by a Senior NCO, a CO and XO

A Division, made up of 5 Brigades of varying specialization, commanded by the most Senior NCO, and COs and XOs

A Field Army, commanded by various ranking Generals, made up of a varying number of Divisions. These are our Shaiks, essentially.
 
Marines have so many bureaucratic middle enlisted ranks it's ridiculous. The majority of the SMDIoN does not need the ranks of the real world military as the marines are largely unconcerned with their own logistical support. The Navy is. The SMDIoN have a singular purpose withing DIoN. Go in Wreck face. Even their upper leadership is based around the fact that they function as specialists in this one aspect. Overarching missions come down from the Navy commanders as they are what enables the functionality of the SMDIoN and the SMDIoN mission is an extension of the Navy's mission. Securing a planet. Marines aren't going to be able to hold a planet indefinitely without Fleet support. Evacuating people from a planet? Marines aren't known for their interplanetary ruck marches and seating capacity. As far as the individual rank names go I could largely care less. However as it stands now most Nep PCs exist in the lower ranks of the current structure. Leave the NPC higher up stuff to the navy and the highest rank of the respective chiefs and enlisted. But allow the PCs to expand their leadership roles in accordance to their abilites. Let the Players that understand how nepleslia works and fights take junior leader roles and help get the newest on their feet and facing the right way. Let the eldest players do the same for them. It takes some of the pressure off of the GM to catherd all the players but at the same time the rank a character has should be merit based on what the player has them provide for a mission. Some players aren't interested in leading others. They're here to blow stuff up. Others have priorities with other factions and plots. Apply rank accordingly.

C3 - (Master Cheif) Old Salty Chief. Probably spending most of his time arguing with some boat captain to get that fleet support your minion chiefs want so bad. You have the big picture out in front of you. You will not like the calls you like to make. Time to work some magic.
C2 - (Cheif) You're a Chief with some experience under your belt. Time to juggle the needs of even more marines and coordinate chunk of the map. Odds are you'll be sorting through the needs of your more junior cheifs to make sure you're most pressed are getting priority. Time to start making tough calls.
C1- (Junior Cheif) Hey Chief. You're the link between your squad(s) and all that metal in space. Time to put that big picture knowledge to use and make the strategic decisions about what your marines need to do and coordinate with fleet for assets. Leave the tactical stuff to your Enlisted leaders. They drive. You navigate.

E6 - (Master Sergeant) You're the most salty experienced Enlisted around. Use that experience to make your subordinates more effective and advise the less tactically competent (read as officers) on how to keep your people supported and alive.
E5 - (Sergeant First Class) You've got multiple Squads Under you. Teach your lower level leaders how to lead, see the big picture, and keep their people informed.
E4 - (Sergeant) Your in charge of a couple teams worth of people. Keep them alive and pointed towards the Mission.
E3 - (Corporal) You've got the minimum abilities to lead. Show the Privates how it's done.
E2 - (Marine first class) You're a Competent Private. Start figuring out how to lead. Also if the team needs to break up smaller than a team. Expect to be paired up with the next most competent guy while corporal takes the least competent.
E1 - (Marine) You're a Private. Learn your Job.
E0 - (Probationary Marine) You're a marine. Barely. (Rank maintained for cultural importance and IPG scapegoating.)
 
The structure proposed sounds good to me Kampfer. I also agree with what Demonblooded is saying about the ranks by the way. The idea of replacing Private with Marine is a novel one though, but one that's not so bad at all. I'm sad to see Lance Corporal go, but considering RP, it works fine.
 
CadetNewb said:
I'm sorry, but I'm just not feeling it with any of those...I'm more for realistic ranks since I simply don't understand the argument in favor of new made-up ranks. Nobody's really said why we should go for those, and my fear is that they'd sound absolutely silly.
Click to expand...
What could be more "realistic" than "sailor" or "crewman" for Navy enlisted ranks?
 
Now not that I have a huge amount of experience with such things, but personally like Demonblooded's layout. It very clearly outlines jobs and almost more importantly , has a clear understanding of where things stand from an rp perspective .

I like to know what I am getting into, and I think future players would appreciate that as well.
 
CadetNewb said:
I actually wouldn't mind that too much, but something like "Spaceman" I couldn't take seriously at all.
Click to expand...
I can't take your not taking that seriously seriously at all.
I know Yamatai would love it.

Really, I think you should ditch marines altogether and go with marauders or raiders.
Have ranks like E0 Cabin Boy, E1 Bilge Rat and E2 Ne'er-do-well.

I like Demonblooded's suggestion.
I think Spaceman is alright. Aren't uncool rank names/titles part of what makes an organization system authentic? Maybe ages from our OOC time Spaceman is the new Seaman.

I don't take Seaman seriously, but it's still being used.
 
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I don't know how to quite put this feeling into words, but they seem kiddish to me. Like something children would call themselves when messing around in the playground - by nature, they don't have a very martial feel to them. Yes, traditional military ranks are bland, but at least they have that going for them.
 
Looking at it, a lot of things seem to be moved around. The Warrant Officers seem to be gone, and Master Sergeant isn't the top enlisted rank anymore. I admit that though our current ranks are a bit odd here and there, they're also good enough for the time being, so we're not in a particular hurry to figure it out. At the same time, we don't want to putter about either.

@Koenig808 - what do you think of the feedback that's been given so far?
 
Do you really need warrant officers? I'm not convinced you do, especially if you're trying to simplify the ranks and allow for more rapid player advancement, which I think are (or should be) your goals here.

I've updated the new page based on your feedback, Cadetnewb.

If Kampfer OKs this version, we'll need to:
  1. Make/Re-designate rank images
  2. Make a conversion chart showing what each old rank will become under the updated system. DONE
 
I am not in favor of removing Grand Admiral from our ranks. Actually, the proposed top ranks of the navy are completely stupid if one examines large IRL navies. Modern navies are not worth examining as they are tiny compared to the numbers fielded historically.

Grand Admirals, Fleet Admirals or Admirals of the Fleet commanded fleets as well as did the paperwork for the navies. A.B. Cunnigham, Nimitz, and Tirpitz come to mind as 5 star admirals who led fleets into combat. I consider the top three naval ranks to be sufficient for what they are. Putting names like Valken, Vanderhuge and Corcyra on the same level with their current subordinates undermines the entire military structure. There's a reason why Grand Admirals are fleet commanders ... it's so that their numerous subordinates all know which bloody Admiral is at the top.

EDIT: I have changed the list to something that doesn't actually break continuity so horrendously that I want to delete this thread. Now, it makes sense AND doesn't completely ignore ALL of the bloody role play involving ranks.
 
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Sigma: I approve of your changes and the reasons for them. I think we have something solid here.

@Koenig808 : What do you think of the updated wiki page? Can we get approval to move on to the rank images?
 
Huh. Marine and Crewman for enlisted doesn't sound too bad. It could lead to a little bit of confusion between addressing any Marine and addressing a Marine as rank, but it seems workable. The inclusion of having Lieutenant in both rank lines is nice, but now we can't exactly have a Master Chief.

I believe that our objective isn't to promote rapid player advancement with these new ranks; they actively bar characters from participating in RP after all. And on top of that, if a player wanted promotions, they could just ask OOC, so moving them up quickly isn't an issue. Rather, I believe that making sure the ranks have defined roles, that it all makes sense and is easy to deal with is the point.

I suggest that both the Navy and Marines use the three Sergeants as their top enlisted, while also sharing the three Warrant Officer Ranks as well.
 
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