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The Role of Pilots

Fred

Retired Staff
Star Army vessels are highly automated and their powerful computers can do most of the navigation tasks required of it, even being so responsive as being able to steer in combat and use the ship's point defenses to take down incoming threats. The ship can also navigate using hyperspace.

This makes me wonder about the Pilot role in the Star Army of Yamatai. At some point, Wes made a point of saying that there was no distinction between a power armor pilot and a starship pilot : both could do the same. However, Pilots end up being nearly useless because the computer can pretty much take care of everything. If that is so, then, what can a pilot character do on a starship (other than loiter, stay on station and watch over the ship and interact with other characters).
 
A great question.

While it is true that a Star Army ship may operate independent of any crew, some Star Army ships are still manned (and some are indeed automated). The pilots are there for the same reasons that the rest of the crew is there. No one wants to fully entrust the military branch of the Empire to computers. Would you?

ICly, as a ship's captain, Henry would much rather that the Megami (his first officer) be focused on more high-level tasks during a battle rather than distract her with more trivial tasks such as, oh, say, steering the ship out of harm's way. :) Keep in mind that many manned ships are command ships, and all command ships are manned, of course.

I'm sure Wes can come up with much better reasons than paranoia, though. :)
 
Well, in NovaCorp vessels at least, the AI's are far more capable of steering and navigating a ship given their nigh on infinitely faster minds, and this means that really they should be given it. Actually its not a matter of distracting these AI's because their minds are so vast they can easily launch weapons, modulate defences, steer the ship out of harms way and made a coffee all at the same time as well as countless other things.

The reason why an Onslaught, despite mostly having Custodian crew, is captained by an Organic is simply a matter of prejudice. Not even NovaCorp is willing to trust a ship to be run entirely by machines, or for the AI to have the highest level of authority in ship.

The actual need for pilots in fighters? I'd say they are actually obsolete. An AI is faster, lighter, and more importantly it doesn't really matter if it's destroyed, especially if it 'saved' itself back in the mother ship. In the Onslaught (once I get around to designing the fighters *guilty look*), the fighters are mostly controlled entirely by the Central AI, and still have a reaction time far far greater than that of an organic pilot and being able to co-ordinate with other far more efficiently. Even a fighter with its own AI is able to work with other fighters more efficiently than organic controlled ones.

I don't think at SA's level of technology there should be organics in fighters, it's too risky and actually leads to a reduction in efficiency. For one thing a fighter needs to be significantly bigger to be able to house the organics body, whereas an AI of superior mental calibre can be housed in something not much larger than your fist. You also don't need life support system, no pesky oxygen, and if you have on of the nigh on eternal power plants it can keep on going for years, unlike an organic controlled which has to have food and water.

As such AI controlled:

Smaller
Weighs Less
Superior reaction time
Superior calculation ability
Superior projection ability
Superior accuracy
Superior co-ordination
Superior tactical ability
Can sustain self for far longer.
More dispensable.

Under the same argument, I don't really see why Power Armous should have a pilot in most sistuations. Take a Mindy and replace the Neko for an AI, and then you have all of that mass to add aditional power in. However Power Armours are a bit of a different argument so I'll only get into that if it comes up.
 
You both bring interesting points which essentially boil down to it being the pilots are still around because, even if the computer could do it, the designers weren't willing to leave everything to it.

On the other hand, in the case of the nekovalkyrja's unique minds... wouldn't they count as AI too in terms of processing speed and general capabilities? The SLICS link up does hint at this. This has become slightly more obvious of late, as the nekos are starting to shift from being extremely powerful to being extremely skilled.

It could also be another can of worms too. Maybe the mindset behind the construction of the ships was "We want it to help us in doing that" rather than "We want it to do it for us".
 
Technically Neko are AI, in that they are Artificial and Intelligent.

However how I use AI is in something not housed in a biological construct, and not based on biological systems ... apart in biological ships. For example in my book Neko are not really AI because their minds are based on biological systems, while a Custodian has an AI, because it is artificial and a machine.

But basically what the end point seems to be is:

"Yes, AI do make superior pilots. However we don't trust them. Evil scheming AI, trying to take over world." *shakes fist*

Personally I'd trust AI's a great deal, since a properly designed AI wouldn't have an enormous desire for power, and might even find itself inhibited from rebelling. Not to mention the fact that the AI's used are so incredibly advanced and well defended hacking them should be nigh on impossible without using an AI of similar power, which is nearly impossible when it comes to a Ship's AI. Especially a large ships. However recently we've had a tendancy for AI's to rebel and go insane ... the most obvious incident is the first one that happaned with the 5th because of tampering a while back that the Confidence got involved in.

But reallly ... we should trust them. Go on, follow the Culture's example.
 
CCG Star Army of Yamatai Occupations said:
Pilot

Power armor pilots are the glue that holds the Star Army together. They are soldiers deployed from starships to engage in close-range space combat. Their highly-mobile armored suits bristle with weaponry, designed to inflict the most damage to the enemy as possible. Power armor pilots are usually enlisted (red ranks) or warrant officers (blue ranks). The character knows how to pilot power armors beyond the general knowledge provided by fighting/physical. He knows the ins and outs of a power armor system and is able to diagnose and solve minor to moderate system problems (electronic malfunctions, intake problems), and can perform rudimentary repairs (very basic) with proper tools. He can operate hand-controlled flight systems. He is very skilled in ship maneuvering and weapons operations in both combat and non-combat situations.

The starship pilot is stationed at the helm control station or pilot's pit. He plots courses for a starship and flies the starship in space and in the atmosphere. Starship pilots are usually officers (white ranks). The character is able to fly a starship. He can pilot the starship in emergency situations (combat maneuvering, dangerous landings, etc). He can read and create navigation charts, plot courses for a starship and fly a starship in space and in the atmosphere.

So, Star Army of Yamatai pilots are expected to be capable of both starship navigation and power armor operation. They can support the technical sentries and engineers in doing maintenance and basic repairs on their equipment.

Enlisted and Warrant officers-ranked Pilots typically pilot only power armors and shuttles. Controlling a starship is for the grey-panneled officers to do.

That said, power armor pilots and starship pilots aren't always useful to have around. Power Armor pilots will only be useful in combat - how would they deal with the time they aren't in combat? What could they do? They can't do maintenance on their armor suits continuously... especially considering that power armor aren't assigned to any single pilot.

Likewise, how does the starship pilot spend her time? The -IES computer can do most of what the pilot can do, in a very short time too. the pilot could always double check the result, but that still wouldn't take too long. Hyperspace trips and CFS transit are really short too.
 
Kotori said:
That said, power armor pilots and starship pilots aren't always useful to have around. Power Armor pilots will only be useful in combat - how would they deal with the time they aren't in combat? What could they do? They can't do maintenance on their armor suits continuously... especially considering that power armor aren't assigned to any single pilot.

How do they deal with it in the actual military? Seems like pilots are always going out on this or that sortie ...

And doesn't the box say "white ranks?" Is it grey or white panels? 'Cause I'm pretty sure Kiyoko-sama wears grey panels.

Kotori said:
Likewise, how does the starship pilot spend her time? ...

Studying to be something other than a pilot, I imagine? The Star Army seems strange in that it has fleets of ships that stick together and can train together, or it has setups such as the Valiant and Sakura, which run out on their own and don't get the chance to do "training."

Hey, wait. Blas. Blas is a pilot. We should ask him what he does.
 
I agree ... but that seems to really limit who gets the white panels. Basically commanders and their XOs get the whites, which is how it's supposed to be anyway. Maybe "special staff" can be clarified?
 
I might as well put in my two cents in response to the thought that other than combat an armor pilot doesn't help out that much.

It was already said that we should look to pilots of today's aircraft for a little knowledge. From my experience speaking with both former and current pilots as well as former and current military personnel in general the name of the game is waiting. My father served onboard a ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) for 6 years, and he said it was the most tedious and boring time of his life. He said while you were on shift you could smoke, recheck your area, and have coffee.

After getting off on that tangent the point I'm trying to make is that doing nothing is part of the game in the military. To be more specific and correct it should be "being ready for anything". Guaranteed there are times when you have activity, such as training exercises and maintenance.

Pilots in the SA are expected to be ready at a moment's notice for anything. Just as the pilots in a country's air defense network are. As AI is just as good as the pilot, if not even better, biological pilots become less wanted. But as a thought to put out, what can biological pilots provide that hardwired AI can't. I want to say gut instincts and emotional rationalization. Granted this may not be what the government/command desires but it is a part of the battlefield.

I agree with both sides of the argument. AI is in general better pilots and has more viable combat skills. However, biological pilots also carry their own unique skill set that has uses. Again this is just my opinion on things.
 
I think I read an argument like this before, AI versus biological beings. In my opinion, Biological beings will have the upper hand because of the individuality of them that allows them to come up with plans that would not be thought of by a computer, also we have the abilty to not always have to follow a logical path and that can be useful sometimes. Also gut instinct plays a huge part in keeping people alive in battles that use pilots for instance. For some strange reason AI seem to be unable to use gut instinct, maybe because they have no guts :D
 
Okay, but where does that put Player Characters that are starship pilots then? They don't end up with much to do except (like mentioned before) train for a better occupation.

Those 'starship pilots' have officer rank!
 
Doshii Jun said:
I agree ... but that seems to really limit who gets the white panels. Basically commanders and their XOs get the whites, which is how it's supposed to be anyway. Maybe "special staff" can be clarified?
Don't confuse white rank pin (ALL officers) with white uniform panels.
I think I read an argument like this before, AI versus biological beings. In my opinion, Biological beings will have the upper hand because of the individuality of them that allows them to come up with plans that would not be thought of by a computer, also we have the abilty to not always have to follow a logical path and that can be useful sometimes. Also gut instinct plays a huge part in keeping people alive in battles that use pilots for instance. For some strange reason AI seem to be unable to use gut instinct, maybe because they have no guts
This kind of reminds me of sexual versus asexual reproduction, and how nature favors sexual reproduction because it creates variations. AIs are mostly copies of one another in the Star Army, whereas pilots are unique individuals. The purpose of a Mindy armor is to augment the capabilities of a Nekovalkyrja, not to just take a neko for a ride and fight for her. Starships are the same way, but to a lesser extent.
 
White panels are worn by the "captain" of the ship, who may or may not actually have the rank of Captain / Taisa.

Example 1: A Chusa aboard a Yui-class destroyer is probably the highest ranking officer onboard and its captain, and wears white panels. That same Chusa, if aboard a Chiharu-class flagship, would only be a mid-ranking bridge officer, who wears gray panels.

Example 2: Henry wears white panels even though he's Taisho. If he requested for one, he could probably get a Taisa transferred to his command, who will actually captain the Celia for him, so that he could focus on the fleet as a whole. (This happens in real navies, I'm told.) In that case, both him and the Taisa would wear white panels, but no one else on the ship would.

Hopefully that clarifies rather than befuddles. ^_^;;
 
Doshii said:
'Cause I'm pretty sure Kiyoko-sama wears grey panels.

You both fail, Kiyoko wears sky-blue panels. The colour that she should wear as both a pilot and an officer was something that had me confused when I started, so I checked it out with Wes and he clarified that it should be the blue of a pilot, rather than either of the officer colours.
 
The primary issue here is that the YSA does not use true AIs, it uses exceptionally smart computers. Computers in the SARP, for the vast bulk of things, exist solely as programs existing on a mostly unchanging processor base. While these programs may be very advanced and complicated and those processors may be capable of spectacular feats of raw serial processing, the systems are at there core little different from what we have now. The 'AI's are not truly capable of learning, they only gather information. While they can then use this to alter there programming to a degree, how they actually process this information does not change (since the processor net is still the same). This kind of processing imposes a limit on what the construct can do.

A true AI (either a artificial on or a organic version) on the other hand utilizes associative processing, where its processor core consist of many distinct nodes each interconnecting with each other, this whole structure termed a neural net. As the construct experiences things it learns from it and the new information causes the some connections to moved around, old ones to be destroyed, and new ones to be created. This more distributed processing method allows for the incredible degree of parallel processing displayed in organic lifeforms. Since the "gut instinct" is merely the product of the sum of a creatures experience being implemented to analyze the situation, a true AI would posses it.

One of the down sides to such a construct, however, is that it must learn. Its programming is only a component of its being, without learning it is nothing more (and potentially much less than) a simple serial computer. This would make things difficult for mass production and was likely a serious mark against there production by the SA.

Secondly, as it learned different things (as it would be bound to do, since it would be operating in different areas from its brethren) it would develop uniqueness. This item, its gaining uniqueness and thus a personality, was almost assuredly the death knell for the mass production of such true AI. This development meant that you could not be certain how the unit would react in a given situation (as you would be with any true AI), and that is most definitely not a desirable trait in what is destined to be military. Further, a true AI cannot be "reset" to a previous 'version' like simpler computers can be. Once it begins learning and making connections within its neural net they cannot be safely undone, simply because one does not know what each given connection "means". A given arrangement in one unit may result in completely different thought processes than it does in. The only state to which it can be returned to is its initial state, before it learned anything (and even this may cause damage to the net). This, obviously, means that all it has experienced is lost, essentially loosing the advantage of the unit (as it must now relearn everything and gain experience just like it did before).

The last problem I foresee people having with true AIs is that of prejudice (as has been said before). Humans (and presumably there progeny in the Nekos and Yamatians) fear change and the unknown instinctively. These traits have be shown throughout our history. In the unfortunate the case of a true AI is a conflux point of change and uncertainty. The development of true AIs will lead to radical changes in society and in how people define themselves (as we will see here on earth in the coming decades). Fears will be born and will grow, however unfounded, to prejudice people against those machines truly sentient. The fact that they are essentially the same as there human creators (assuming they are taught similarly) will either be overlooked or add to the fear of and prejudice against them. A AI would no more kill a innocent or plot the over through of its civilization than would a normal person. A AI could be trusted to make just as good (and probably better, since its subjective time is so much faster) decisions as a organic commander, but this too will not really be considered. After all, who wants to take absolute orders from some inanimate box stuffed into a closet on the ship?

The last, last issue, which is the primary one, is that people want to play the role of pilots. As long as this is so reasons why smart computers (or possibly AIs) have not taken over in positions for which they are far more suited than a organic person.
 
The way you people make it sound, Star Army pilot end up doing is sit there and look pretty, and answer the very occasional order that the ship computer's would not be able/allowed to do.

As several SA ships has a pilot interface mounted in the seat of the ship's commander, it makes me feel the Starship Pilot occupation is somewhat redundant. Since that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense to have pilots grow out of enlisted ranks to earn a posting as a Starship Operator (which is more generalistic and stands well for about any bridge crew position)?
 
Well, as Wes used to say: \ (o_O) /

No, actually, I have some other explanations for it:

Piloting (most) Star Army power armors and (all) Star Army starships both require the SLICS interface. Sure, you can always fiddle with a joystick, but nothing among the Star Army technologies achieve mind-machine interface better than SLICS, I believe. And only Nekos are equipped with SLICS. So if the captain is not a Neko, he'll have to rely on pilots if you require a "human" pilot.

So why should we require "human" pilots for manned ships? Some ships are automated, so it's obviously not necessary. But, the power armors are piloted by Nekos and Yamataians, who, like Wes said, each has his or her own personality and fighting style. I therefore propose that the Neko pilots onboard starships achieve optimal synergy with their power armored comrades on the battlefield. In other words, the coordination that you can achieve between pilots is better than any coordination that can be ever achieved between an AI and a group of pilots, or between a group of AIs.

Or I could be just pulling rabbits out of my butt. You decide. :p
 
Yangfan said:
Piloting (most) Star Army power armors and (all) Star Army starships both require the SLICS interface. Sure, you can always fiddle with a joystick, but nothing among the Star Army technologies achieve mind-machine interface better than SLICS, I believe. And only Nekos are equipped with SLICS. So if the captain is not a Neko, he'll have to rely on pilots if you require a "human" pilot.

I counter this with a Rufus, in the battle of HnI, with the Sakura. Without the benfit of SLICS he flew around and destroyed plenty of ships while evading enough enemy fire that the ship was not significantly damaged.
 
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