Wormholes and SARP: What happened?

[Exhack]

I'm just wondering exactly was decided on this topic by the various members of our lovely GM crew. Now, I'd rather if we kept this civil, but if it goes they way I suspect it will, at least it's private this way.

People can present their arguments as the please, but I'd prefer it if a few questions of mine were presented first.

-What is the current status of wormhole-based propulsion?
-How has this affected ongoing plotships?
-Why was this decision reached?
-Could this judgment be negotiated pending highly specific restrictions?

Thanks for being reasonable, gents.

 

[Soresu]

Wormhole based propulsion should still be usable imo. Since frankly, you can't just magic that part of physics, space, and time out. Otherwise most of the remaining systems we use, won't work. Nadda, zip, zap, zero. You'd be ripping the universe a new one, it'd fall apart, and like I said before, the stuff we mostly use as is, is reliant on some of the principles utilized in wormholes as a whole. You take them out, the rest is like pulling the main support beam out of a place, it'll collapse.

 

[Fred]

Using them for instant annihiliation or to have weapons fire teleport within ships shields or even interiors is what I'm personally against.

...and before Soresu uses the subspace-encased positron cannons again as an example, personally, I'm pretty much close to the point of treating them as normal positron cannons from the point I have Miharu's overhaul complete. I'd rather go for the inherent properties of anti-matter weapons as a reason for their effectiveness instead of go for the rather vague implications "subspace encased/tunneling" have.

T'was a plot device for the Mishhu, an useful one that gave them a tool that others could dread and I've been target to it before Miharu as much as many other people. Now, it's accomplished its purpose. I'm ready to move on and use things players can relate to and deal with better than these kinds of hardware.

I've nothing against wormholes for space travel in itself.

 

[Soresu]

Actually Fred, for once, I was going to surprise you and NOT use them as examples. ^^; Quite frankly, wormhole propulsion should still be usable, but the weapon aspects not so much.

 

[Exhack]

I'd even go as far as saying that certain kinds of wormhole weapon are acceptable. Say, having a wormhole gate on your ship, opening it up and firing the lovely cruise missile they've been building back home through it. But using it to kill RP, by say, warping a bomb into/next to a ship is simply a bad use of good tech.

As for the propulsion, well. Maybe there should be specific range or charge time restrictions for each submission? Not a global one, but something that varies from design to design, depending on tech allowances.

 

[MoonMan]

Never been a big fan of teleportation in any form. Weaponizing wormholes means instantaneous, non-avoidable death via wormholing a nuke into the opposing captains' colon. And if wormholes for use in propulsion OTHER than large, stationary gateways means instant travel in a setting that ALREADY largely negates long spacetravel times...it seems a bit unnecessary and non-beneficial to overall roleplay.

 

[MissingNo]

Think about what you just suggested, Ex. First thing my mind went to was a fleet with basically infinite ammunition.

Have one or more worlds with nothing but factories building missiles. Each factory has one or possibly hundreds of gates and a missile launcher systems (this could also be used for MAC -- Magnetic Accelerator Canon -- guns, basically massive ship-borne railguns). Make missile, fire it through wormhole, have it exit through a gate on the ship. Make a ship with several dozen or hundred of these things and synchronize the gate openings and you have a ship that can fire each missile as soon as it leaves the belt. Unless someone finds each and every one of those factory worlds, you've got a fleet that never has to return to resupply.

I say "game-killer', don't you? The ONLY fair part about that set-up is that the gate is contained within the ship in my idea, like at the mouth of where a missile launcher bay would be in any other ship, so it's not warping the missile directly to the target, rather firing it like any other...except the supply never ends.

 

[Exhack]

That really isn't any worse than beam weapons that fire one pulse every 6 seconds, have total annihilation radiuses of several hundred meters, ranges of a few AU and run with definitely infinite ammunition. Screw theoretically, the main guns of most ships in SARP have limitless ammo, and high tech nations have insta-kill power. And again, to be fair. You actually have to calibrate two gates at two ends of the universe and pray that no one fires down your gullet.

It's potentially less overpowered than many of the weapons in this setting, and far more dangerous to use. But then again, it's also not really the point, and I don't want the thread to get derailed.

I did have those questions, that haven't been answered yet, yannow?

 

[Tom]

Why not do what Fred's doing and just downgrade/make tech fun again by making it reasonably powerful (as with the new Miharu 'upgrades')?

I'm going to make a topic addressing our tech concerns soon, I think. We kinda need to get on top of this .

 

[OsakanOne]

To start with, wormhole FTL is no longer allowed on ships.

The most feasible technology here and you say it's impossible because you're frightened of getting shafted, big guy?

I cannot express how biased your opinion appears. We still have Yamatai's god tech. We worked around that. We learned to cope and it's part of the SARP. So let's have a healthy dose of possibility and reality.

The resolution is so fucking simple - I'm kicking myself for not having seen it sooner:
We can have our cake and eat it.

We create a series of rules to be followed. Just as Zesuaium, aether and plasma have general rules, so should wormholes.

• 
  Rule #1)
  • 
    In order to create an exit wormhole, a line of sight is required which is not obscured by solid matter unless used in extreme proximity (10 meters or less through material no thicker than one inch).

And there we go. Problem Solved. Transposition is now impossible and if we decide we want to "warp out" of a hanger or launch ordinance without a bay door, we can.

This also makes it a little more difficult to run away but the dynamics here are also very interesting: Worm-holing is no longer feasible in a junk-yard, mine-field or asteroid field unless the wreckage is first moved.

 

[SUBLIMEinal]

To start with, wormhole FTL is no longer allowed on ships.

The most feasible technology here and you say it's impossible because you're frightened of getting shafted, big guy?

I cannot express how biased your opinion appears. We still have Yamatai's god tech. We worked around that. We learned to cope and it's part of the SARP. So let's have a healthy dose of possibility and reality.

The resolution is so fucking simple - I'm kicking myself for not having seen it sooner:
We can have our cake and eat it.

We create a series of rules to be followed. Just as Zesuaium, aether and plasma have general rules, so should wormholes.

• 
  Rule #1)
  • 
    In order to create an exit wormhole, a line of sight is required which is not obscured by solid matter unless used in extreme proximity (10 meters or less through material no thicker than one inch).

And there we go. Problem Solved. Transposition is now impossible and if we decide we want to "warp out" of a hanger or launch ordinance without a bay door, we can.

This also makes it a little more difficult to run away but the dynamics here are also very interesting: Worm-holing is no longer feasible in a junk-yard, mine-field or asteroid field unless the wreckage is first moved.

I think this is a pretty solid suggestion, if I do say so myself.

 

[Wes]

Not approved. I don't think we should allow wormhole-based FTL in the RP anymore, since it's basically unused anyway, and because it defeats the point of the speed restrictions.

The only time wormholes should be used is with the "Gates."

Let's not use wormhole generators on ships, and especially not missiles.

 

[Zakalwe]

Wes, do I have your permission to redesign the Onslaught with this in mind? It heavily used wormhole technology, and while I accept your decision it will require a good going over.

 

[Wes]

That's fine, Zakalwe.

 

[Fred]

Weeees. *plaintively*

You know some guys still use and want to use wormhole technology for traveling. It's be stupidly shooting them in the foot to deny it to them. Heck, teleporting Mindy armor based themselves on a similar method of travel (seriously, stepping through a wormhole and teleporting are very similar. If you do pull this restriction, it should go both ways).

I say just make it a fold equivalent. Perhaps it can pass through solid matter, but requires longer charging times and has halved speed. What they want is the novelty, and I don't see how it hinders our roleplay to make them happy on that level.

Perhaps we can bring up why only ships can use wormhole-technology. Perhaps those, once in use, require drive systems adequate to surviving transition through it... something a ship big enough could have and a small unit wouldn't, thus disallowing the use of munitions and such through them.

 

[Soresu]

Ok...there is nothing stopping people from using Wormhole based FTL-drives. I personally like a little flavor in my FTL systems, Wormholes offer that over straight vanilla Fold drives. Not everyone will want fold, so why not leave this propulsion system up as an alternative? What is so bad about it? Wormholes are a natural phenomena in space, and a natural form of travel (From a sci-fi standpoint). Personally, I don't see the big deal over this drive system beyond it not seeing use to such a massive degree as fold based propulsion. Still, that shouldn't be the reason to get rid of it...

I mean hey, it is nice to have alternatives, and to spice things up by having a little variety in our choices.

 

[Wes]

Wormhole travel (being instant) circumvents the Starship Speed Standard.

 

[Soresu]

We could make it, not instant... to make things fair couldn't we? I mean, no one really knows if the transfer of matter is a wholly instantaneous process across wormholes...

 

[Fred]

The charge time to create a wormhole to a destination could offset the reduced travel time too.

 

[OsakanOne]

Not approved. I don't think we should allow wormhole-based FTL in the RP anymore, since it's basically unused anyway, and because it defeats the point of the speed restrictions.

The only time wormholes should be used is with the "Gates."

Let's not use wormhole generators on ships, and especially not missiles.

Wormhole travel (being instant) circumvents the Starship Speed Standard.

No drama is intended. I'm saying what I need to say.

And?
Maras can only do it over a set distance or less every so many minutes or so and if it can't make the jump, it's FTL mobility seriously takes a hampering.


Variety is the spice of life and you sir, need to realize WE, THE ROLEPLAYERS OF STARARMY.COM want this, whether you do or not and we're arguing for it because it's fun.

As powerful as you are, you should realize the roleplayers always have as much of a say as any GM when it comes to matters like this and the players have obviously said "Nope, we're keeping that".

You're a founder. Foundation. You're the guy we come to with questions, who's supposed to coordinate plots and enrich the experience, not slap us over the wrists for something far more reasonable than things you yourself have done. Specifically: Something already In use that people Want to use that will be worked in, even if under a different name.

That's like when Apple said "No, only buy from my online store. Nothing else on your pod and fob off PC users" when they first introduced it. Noone brought them. Noone uses iTunes ringtones. Nobody uses Amazon Kindle. Noone uses Windows for server tasks outside of the office.

We get it ourselves. Music, ringtones, ebooks and the people made Linux. The SARP is a community site by nature and blocking something because "I can't quantify it" is ludicrous! IT HAS its own PIT-FALLS!


If we took a vote, we'd be keeping it .
Don't fight the people.