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Approved Submission Yamataian Calendar (YE system)

Wes

Wes

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Submission Type: Calendar
Submission URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=calendar:yamatai

Faction: Yamatai, Nepleslia
FM Approved Yet? Yes for Yamatai, Nepleslian parts need approval from @Gunhand4171
Faction requires art? Not for this type of submission

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? No
Contains New art? No
Previously Submitted? No

Notes: FINALLY, right?
 
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I'd just like to point out that there was a poll that showed support for this. Admittedly, it didn't have a "status quo" option, but the status quo has no IC reason to even exist.
Wes said:
An international trade calendar that's based on Earth will just make everyone have to do even more conversions since I don't know what faction would have IC justification to use it.
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Maybe you could make your own poll to confirm the previous poll's trends, Fred, since you seem worried about the calendar being "shoved down our craw."

As a tangential point, I didn't like the result of the Galaxy Map poll. Option 2B is much prettier and we should use it! But that opinion didn't motivate me to request a second version of the map be made. Just saying.
 
It feels like it's more bleed-through from OoC into the setting than IC inertia that's behind stuff like this. Like the NMX having latin characters on their ships... that's fine so long as we don't actually try to give an in-setting explanation for it, we can assume it's simply for the audience's sake. Going off that idea, people saying 'December' even when the calendar doesn't have that month is a lot like laser beams being visible, and there being sound in space. We don't need to come up with an in-character explanation for it, let alone a scientific one, for it to remain a viable option to writers. I don't mind things like that, but I really don't like the idea of trying to explain and justify it, in-setting.

As far as the holidays like Halloween goes, I assume they're here not because 'they're descendants of Earth and traditions never die', but because this setting is based in part off of TV shows. TV shows will always include popular holidays, or original ones that are suspiciously analogous to them, rather than taking a world-building perspective to it. It's because they air in real-time, and real people get real excited about real holiday traditions, and want to stay excited about them when enjoying fiction that's ready for viewing at the same time. I find that easier to accept when the explanations don't go beyond a hand-wave.
 
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In-Character reason is not the end-all-be-all, and Out of Character is still an important factor, perhaps even more so at times since that's where we, the players actually exist. Out of Character, we still have to contend with what we have going on In Character, and I don't like the idea of there being another thing to be hassled by on top of everything else. The fact that the poll was rather biased in the manner it was, assuming we'd get a new calendar, also reduces its credibility. Also, it's unfair of you to compare this to the Galaxy map Raz; I don't think we're even asking for much. You could even debate we're asking for less, or even none at all.
 
I sure as hell would have liked a keep it the way it is option and the ability to say fine option 1 please, not the others if things are definitely going to change.

Also I really hope DEATH METAL DAY is a joke. It just sounds really cheesy/cliche to me. If we're going to have names like that can we at least make Nepleslia's Sunday Gun Day?
 
CadetNewb said:
In-Character reason is not the end-all-be-all, and Out of Character is still an important factor, perhaps even more so at times since that's where we, the players actually exist. Out of Character, we still have to contend with what we have going on In Character, and I don't like the idea of there being another thing to be hassled by on top of everything else. The fact that the poll was rather biased in the manner it was, assuming we'd get a new calendar, also reduces its credibility. Also, it's unfair of you to compare this to the Galaxy map Raz; I don't think we're even asking for much. You could even debate we're asking for less, or even none at all.
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Dunno how you're arguing that OOC is an important factor while saying it's unfair to bring up the galaxy map like I did. That logic doesn't line up at all; choose one line of thinking, please. So I'm outta here having said my piece in defense of this cool submission.
 
raz said:
Dunno how you're arguing that OOC is an important factor while saying that unfair to bring up the galaxy map like I did. That logic doesn't line up at all; choose one line of thinking, please. So I'm outta here having said my piece in defense of this cool submission.
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How does it not? OOC, it's an aesthetic choice of one map over the other, wasn't it? Meanwhile, OOC, this calendar is something I think is more hassle than it's worth.
 
Yeah, it... seems to be that what you're asking for, CadetNewb, is for everyone to imagine the calendar has whatever months and years anyone wants. The only reason that's not a big hassle is due to a de facto consensus that the calendar is the same as ours.

If the user base used multiple calendars, establishing one like this would be vital to create a standard. Unfortunately, we already have a standard that we've been applying ad hoc, and some people have become very attached to it, while we still can't set it as the standard without the results being incoherent.

Is having the freedom to continue referring to a 12-month calendar and the days of the week used in English not enough of a compromise? Creating a new standard based on what's effectively a big shrug and a resounding "Meh" might technically be less hassle, but going that far to avoid 'a hassle' just seems embarrassing to me.
 
The 'hassle' might seem small on your end, but the thing is though, I'm a Game Master, and I'm worried this is going to be an extra workload. I gotta keep things in order for our plots and plot planning. As a Game Master, I have to go through RP, chronicling what's happened, and so on, so forth. It's already tough to do, and something I don't like doing, especially if it's looking for one specific post buried in who knows how many. I'm already going to have multiple tabs open, going through them all, and now I gotta worry about months. Maybe it's not a big deal, but I'm genuinely worried this is going to become an unpleasant splinter in my toe that just keeps hurting down the line.

Yes, you're correct that we've been working off an assumption, and an incorrect one, but it was also pretty easy. All I had to do was make sure the chronology matched up.
 
After functioning a certain way from 2005 to 2016, I'm not embarassed by the desire to not be bothered with the new thing and not be labelled wrong by operating the way I have. To me, enforcing this as the one thing is simply disruptive.

I don't see what's so hard about "don't bother me with this". I don't see why this must be a zero-sum game. Use what makes you happy, and it'll still be compatible with the way we've worked so far.

It's as simple as that.
 
I can add a note the page that you don't have to set your RP in the suggested IC month. As long as you say what month of the year you're in in the RP's opening post, that should avoid timeline confusion. I think as long as the RP is in the right year, things are pretty flexible.

I am still waiting for @Gunhand4171 to approve the Nepleslian names of the weekdays (and he can add Nepleslian month names too if desired, or just leave them as numbers). Until then, the ones I used are merely placeholders/suggestions. Oh, and I totally added Gun Day.
 
I'm just tired and frustrated, and at this point, forget it. If it doesn't work out, I'll just ignore it like DR and move on.
 
I'm going to jump back in with a simple question: How often do we all actually reference the date IC? Maybe in the first post of a thread? Maybe on your character page when you're listing awards, enlistment dates, payment dates, etc? While I understand peoples' (specifically @Fred ) aversion to the need to do conversions every time they list the date, I don't think the occurrence of listing a date is frequent enough to warrant scrapping this project or ignoring it simply because people are too lazy to take 10 seconds to do the conversion.

Furthermore, I feel like a conversion argument is void anyways since it's not a 1:1-day ratio, but a 1:1-year ratio. This means that, despite both having a 24-hour day, Yamatai days and Earth days will be taking place of a different period of time. Basically, since we're having a 1:1-year ratio, time in the setting is slowed down by 10-15%. 365 days of Earth days OOC takes place in the same amount of time as 315 Yamatai days IC, despite each day being the same length. There wouldn't be a need to convert, because there isn't a perfect 1:1-day conversion, but rather it would be a rough 'pick-a-date' kind of system. We could easily include a chart on the page which would show where it shows more line-up dates (Wes already has one that shows where the start date of each Yamataian month lines up with the OOC calendar, but I feel like we could have a more in-depth one that has 3-4x more line-up points, simply for the simplicity of estimating where in the timeline your post takes place).

Furthermore again, everyone is getting all worked up about a calendar system in a game where 12 hours of play time takes place over the course of four months. And people are up in arms that it would be busy work to tell exactly on what date a given post/thread/event takes place? Seriously? New flash: we already just make shit up when we pick on what date an event takes place. If, in your plot, your destroy an enemy base, does that take place on the date of the first post, or the date of the post in which the base was destroyed? Does it take place whenever the GM sees the post? If two GMs each start a thread, the second GM starting one week later, but that second GM's plot finishes first, which plot occurred first in the timeline? The answer is that there is no answer and we simply pick a date and all informally agree not to question it too much. We're literally making stuff up in regards to timeline, continuity, and event dates. There's no need for precise conversion, there's no need to get all muddled up about whether a certain event happened on a Suiyōbi or a Doyōbi of a given week, or even whether it takes place 3月25日 or 3月35日, because those things have never mattered before.

Lastly, people are always complaining, and we have even had recent discussions about this, that the setting is still rather thin, and there are many aspects of the universe that are not fleshed out. It comes up all the time, and at least once a year we have a major conversation about how the setting needs more non-tech setting element additions, and each time it comes up almost everyone is in agreement that we need these additions. People are always pointing to things like "terraforming" or any other setting elements that are taken from Earth and wondering why we don't change them. Yet the moment people like Wes put in the time and effort to actually flesh out the setting, and address these inconsistencies, people get all up in arms. The argument that we've always had these inconsistencies is not a good argument for keeping it that way, because at the end of the day this just appears as a desire not to learn new things, or a desire to never have the setting evolve and grow.

I think people are greatly overestimating how much of an inconvenience this change would present. The worst-case scenario is that the one or two times per month of RP work where you need to reference a date, you open up the calendar page, pick a rough date of where your RP is taking place IC, and move on with your lives, in the same way that over a five month thread we already pick a rough date of where the RP took place and move on with our lives.

/rant end
 
Geez!

You have this new thing and you want to use it. That's fantastic for you. Go ahead, have fun with it!

But why do you have to insist so much on the denying the option people had been using before Wes came up with this? What exactly do you lose by having us have our cake too?

In the other thread, Raz suggested that Yamatai instated its "Yamataian calendar system", and that before then, we had the "Trade Calendar". That works. It doesn't prevent the people that like the new thing to support it, and if it's indeed so good as implied... to lead by example with it. Excellence will speak for itself.

Even if Wes alone uses it, Wes usually has the greatest influx of new players come by his plot, and it'll shape the way they perceive the setting, and once they move on, they'll refer to it that way because that's what they've been used to for most of their time on SARP. It's likely an excellent way of grandfathering this in; the old fogeys that don't like it will still eventually be coaxed in if it's really so great.

Seriously, stop it with the zero sum game approach. It's not like a real life precedent doesn't exist: the Gregorian calendar vs. the Lunar Calendar. How many people use the Lunar calendar? Not many, right? Doesn't prevent it from existing.

I don't get why it's so hard for you to understand that. Why you getting absolutely what you want requires the carpet to be pulled from the feet of others, regardless of how insignificant you think their stance is. If could can give them a bone and still have what you want, why not?
 
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But why do you have to insist so much on the denying the option people had been using before Wes came up with this?
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In terms of the game, it's because people, myself included, have been putting OOC months on IC dates because there wasn't any standard on this and because the OOC calendar simply isn't canon. The way the site works is we have a shared canon and share standards like these--like a Mindy doesn't look or work differently from plot to plot, and the Star Army doesn't wear blue in one plot and red in another plot. And if Kotori leaves a statue on a planet in her plot, an adventurer in an Open RP plot who visits that planet may see that statue. We're in this boat together. So all of the plots of SARP (at least the Yamataian ones) should be using the same calendar.

The question was asked of me, "What months are there?" and I've spent a lot of time researching and thinking on it and creating spreadsheets and creating this calendar that matches the existing canon of the site. If we had a 12-month year it would either have 26-day months (with one leap day) or it would have 365 days and planet Yamatai would have its seasons happening 40 days more misaligned each year. I don't think we can just go back and continue ignoring that IC months should exist. I believe this article is the best and most sensible answer I can provide in terms of what the YSE's months look like, and I would really appreciate your support on this Fred and Cadetnewb. And if you really want to suggest an alternative, please present it for us to look at.
 
My response is that, this is how every setting element or change has existed since the beginning of forever. When we created the hill spheres around planets to prevent FTL, why can't some of the older players that don't like that concept ignore it? Maybe I didn't like the treaty that was created between a few nations. Why should the carpet be pulled from under my feet and deny my the opportunity to RP without that setting element? I had characters that were in older-version Yamatain/Geshrin/Minkan (or whatever we call them now) bodies. When new ones were created, my character was forced to update. He has SPINE now, which he want through five years of military service without. And yet, I can't simply use the good ol' days as an argument for not making this change. What's the point in a global setting if people can simply ignore setting changes without IC justification. It's the reasons that there aren't really elves or magic anymore in the setting, because the community decided we didn't like it and everyone was forced to adopt the change. We can't cherry-pick what elements of the setting we do/don't want to follow.

If someone wanted to make a separate article, outlining the details and history of a separate calendar, than each faction would be within their right to choose which they prefer, but in the absence of another article and submission, I don't think we should be ignoring the only version that we have. Look at Neshaten, they have their own calendar and this would in no way interfere with that calendar, because there's an IC reason why not. If you've got non-Yamataian characters then I see no reason that they couldn't ignore this modification. But if the Yamatai and Nepleslian FM both say this is what goes in their setting, then this is what goes.

I've just never been a fan of making inconsistent IC changes, or preventing correction of inconsistencies, for OOC convenience. I would be making this same argument if people were arguing against changing NMX ships to have their alphabet on the ship, or if people were pushing for a change to make laser beams invisible, unless there were a reasonable IC justification for keeping them as-is. This whole 'Trade Calendar' doesn't sit well because, where did it come from and why do people use it? What's it measuring? What's being used as the measuring device? Where did the setting get a 365-day from? Come up with a justification for it and I'm right there with you, and it could be up to each FM which calendar their faction will use.
 
There could probably be a calendar based on four seasons (if Yamatai has four) that's arbitrarily broken down into twelve months. This is still kind of borrowing from an Earth history that doesn't exist, though. Since the people who think nine months is the end of the world are involved with the already anomalous Ralt setting element, maybe they can somehow tie it to that culture.

Fred said:
But why do you have to insist so much on the denying the option people had been using before Wes came up with this?
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Because it was never an "option" so much as it was an assumption. Now we have a canon answer. It's not a change, it's gaining information we didn't have before. This happens all the time on SARP.

I've done a search of the Byakuren and Yamatai forum. Neither your current plot nor the YSS Miharu contain reference to October, November, or December as measurements of time. So it's not like it's even hurting your current or previous RP. Dunno why you're acting like it has any impact on it whatsoever.

Meanwhile, one of the plots I previously GMed takes place in the "tenth month," and I don't feel super affronted or anything. And, as I pointed out, Wes made reference to "December" before and clearly doesn't think that canon is suddenly invalid.
 
If the reason for doing this is to ensure that any setting element or plot event can be tied to a firm date, one that can be shared across the site, that's a noble goal I do not see working out.

We are not that unified. I don't believe we want to be. It forces GMs and players to make choices that could bind others and/or themselves in ways that upset the flow of the narrative of one or many plots. We are on plotships in part to avoid automatically being wrapped up in the decisions of another GM.

All of us following the calendar would eliminate potential inconsistencies, but I can't help but believe those inconsistencies exist as a helpful shield for GMs who want not to be tangled up in the events of the wider setting.

The vets have examples of how it helped. They might not remember, or they might be willing to forego them.

I like the submission because I want to be able to tell time. I like that precision; I believe it helps me tell the stories I want to tell.

But I am not a GM.
 
When I used the word 'embarrassing', I didn't mean that it's embarrassing to anyone who does it. I meant that when people use the Earth calendar for a sci-fi RP set in another galaxy, it's embarrassing for the RP community. That doesn't mean anyone has to feel shame, especially if they can't afford it, but it's like an art department resorting to crayons because they went over-budget. Even if not embarrassing for the artists, it reflects poorly on the whole studio. It's not that big a deal, but if we shared the same objective, it wouldn't be 'a deal' at all.

No, this isn't a 'zero-sum game'. That's the issue, in fact. We get more out of the RP if we work together than if we don't. But we've not been working together, we've been talking about creating multiple standards, with the benefit being that it allows groups to work independently using whichever one they prefer. We're doing that because there's a disagreement, and avoiding conflict is being put at a higher priority than accepting a single standard.

Creating a unique calendar for everyone to share as a basis for the RP being vilified... paradoxically, in fear of complications and extra work, despite that having multiple standards will no doubt lead to extra work and complications. It doesn't add up.

What else is there to say?
 
Fred gave me an idea to add a note like "Prior to YE 39, many in Yamatai and Nepleslia also used a 12-month, 365-day "operational calendar" that was introduced by the Nerimian Defense Initiative, an allied military, when the Grand Star Army was still being formed. As of YE 39, this practice has largely been dropped and is no longer standard in the Star Army of Yamatai.

This would explain why Earth months were mentioned in the past and could cover some future slipups too (old habits die hard!). What do you think? It's only a couple sentences but could help with the transition.
 
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