[Star Army] Fleet Plan

[Zack]

So I wasn't going to say anything because I didn't want to instill USO values onto Yamatai, but since you've decided to keep the 10th fleet there is one very important mission the 10th fleet can carry out.

Assuming you cut the total number of fleets down to 4-5, you would end up having the 1st fleet, 2nd fleet, 3rd fleet, 4th fleet, and 10th fleet.

A large part of the tenth's fleet's mission would be to pretend there is a 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th fleets.

Its a classic move, its been used in nearly every war that armies have fought, and it is still used today because it works.

 

[Navian]

@Gunsight, I don't agree, though I do make an effort to resist attempts by corporations to break associations through rebranding, and by cities to try to make a clean break from the past or create a new image simply by renaming things. It doesn't seem to me that history can be erased, disconnected, or otherwise rendered moot by decree. It seems we feel differently, though.

And yeah, naming things confusingly on purpose is a time-honoured tactic. As long as all the Star Army admirals knew those fleets didn't exist, the illusion probably wouldn't backfire.

 

[Gunsight1]

@Navian, military's, especially navy's are very tradition oriented and sentimental, they do very much so preserve their history through the continuation of names. Again I site the USS Enterprise, which there have been 8 ships to bear the name since the American revolution, the USS Hornet, which there have been eight ships and 1 class of fighter plane to bear the name since the revolution (The last USS Hornet, CV-12 was even originally to have a different name, USS Kearsarge, but was renamed, while being built, to Hornet in honor of the then recently sunk USS Hornet CV-8), USS Wasp of which there have been 10 ships to bear the name since the revolution. In the Royal Navy, there have been 5 ships named HMS Ark Royal.

Names are important, very important. This dates back to old sailing navies, where sailors were, and to a point, still are very superstitious. A lucky name could be enough to inspire a crew to do the impossible, push a little harder, for the sake of their ship or fleet's good name.

 

[raz]

The only hangup I can really see is that it's not like the 10th is super unique in having a lot of RPd history.

Its spiritual predecessor, the 5th XF, had just as much if not more. And the 1st XF, Yamatai's most famous veteran fleet in terms of RPd plots and being fleshed out, is itself going to get merged into the 1st Standard. The 5th and 9th both have plots ongoing, too (Unluckies and Ryujo, respectively, and the Soyokaze is apparently a 9th ship "NJ-9SF-1015" even though it's TF77), and both have history from the 2nd Mishhu War (5th took back Tami, 9th had a stay-behind force on Tami the whole occupation, and 9th took back Tatiana). And while the 7th kept dying when Andrew left, there's quite a bit of RP there, too.

Not to say I mind the 10th staying at all; I don't necessarily disagree with it sticking around. One of my characters was the first SAINT liaison there, after all, and it's been mentioned that part of this is to get rid of Taisho of inactive players, which Gunny is not. But we could justify really any fleet sticking around for historical or sentimental reasons.

 

[Gunsight1]

The Tenth though is one of the actively played in fleets though

 

[Fred]

Well, according to what Wes noted, the First Expeditionary Fleet is also still not off the board, for similar reasons.

So, yeah. >_>

 

[raz]

The Tenth though is one of the actively played in fleets though

So are the Fifth and the Ninth, though (Unluckies plus Ryujo and tangentially Soyokaze, as mentioned above). While the former isn't going away, I doubt the new quartermaster Fifth Fleet is going to have anything to do with Kai's Type 30/34 Fifth Fleet.

Again, I don't really oppose keeping the Tenth. But the point of the new Fleet Plan is to modernize the Star Army, so if we're going to pay attention to "reasons" for one, why not give equal weight to others?

The Tenth is already the size of a larger/combined task force as it stands today. Why not just call it "Task Force Lantern" again under the new organizational structure and assign it to operations in Yugumo? That still pays heed to history, if not doing so even more respectfully, and matches up with real life inspirations (Task Force 61, for example, has been in use by the USN since WW2).

idk, just a suggestion. I feel like we can fit history and tradition in with the new Fleet Plan, because other than the 1st, it looks like all of the fleets are essentially going to be almost entirely restructured in purpose.

 

[Gallant]

If there's some super special attachment to the name "Tenth Fleet," then, sure, keep it. But I can't really see it mattering much, since a reorganized Tenth Fleet under the new Fleet Plan will look nothing like the existing Tenth Fleet. Is Yui really going to just say "hmm, okay, we're going to keep this tiny group of ships supported by military contractors while the rest of the Empire gets a modern TO&E"?

OOCly the purpose of the 10th fleet was to provide GMs with a non-standard fleet that they could pull 'realistically challenging' plots and assets from. I am 100% against giving it a full fleet compliment, for this exact reason. If it's been updated since I had it, then it certainly isn't my fault, lol.

While I was FlM of the fleet I had to periodically decline reinforcements, as the contractors and subcontractors were a feature, not a flaw.

It made the 10th difficult to deal with, let the plots playing in that area of space flex a bit within the overwhelming fact and truth of Yamatai's superiority without feeling as though Yamatai were at their doorstep ready to kick their door in with huge superfleets and massive aether weaponry - the traditional response to, well, practically everything. This may be the setting truth, it might be the real truth, it might even be what ICly Yamatai wants, but upon reflection it wasn't what the GMs needed and ultimately that's what a setting element should be for - use by the GMs. It is, in fact, being currently used for that.

I'm not arguing against the IC reordering, but I'll draw the line at wiping out what made 10th unique and fun for GMs to use, and 'safe' for other FMs to use as an antagonist or a plot widget. It was used by Luca in Akahar, and DocTomoe and I frequently shared assets Lorath/Yamatai for use in our plots. I expect it's the same for Gunsight; you can bother the 10th Fleet Bees, without bothering the entire Beehive. It was the frontier. It was Yamatai without the threat of instant death or total war, and people liked it.

It is, basically, the narrows of Yamatai.

If it gets 'cleaned up', it loses that useful aspect. It's really that simple.

 

[Navian]

An alternative to using a mini-fleet as an antagonist would be to use a single task force or other subdivision. The rest of the fleet can be assumed to have other duties, it should be rare that a single plot ever requires an entire fleet acting together.

If the system only works if a cog is sprung loose from it, the solution isn't to leave a loose piece jangling around; the solution is to revise the system so that every part of it contributes to the function of the whole as intended. This is a good opportunity to add new solutions to old problems.

 

[raz]

If it gets 'cleaned up', it loses that useful aspect. It's really that simple.

Wes posted this:

Based on feedback, I am considering keeping the tenth fleet, but it'd have to have a clear role and ... would probably look very different in terms of assets.

Gunsight, as the fleet manager, just seems to want the name and heraldry, which is obviously workable. But the matter of whether to keep the 10th an odd podunk fleet that's out of line with modernizing doctrine being put in place because there's a new war seems to have been settled already.

So I'll reiterate a possible solution: Call it "Task Force Lantern" again or rename it something new (Task Force Ryuusei?), since the 10th is the size of a task force anyway, and give it responsibility over the same space geography plus Leo Star Fortress. It works for keeping the 10th's special snowflake status, but does not go against all sense and reason.

 

[Gallant]

I don't think either of you actually get or understand what I am saying, and I am not certain how to be clearer.

@Navian is just spouting off what makes IC sense to them, which is a point I've already addressed, and you, @raz, are doing the same thing. I realize that you're trying to find solutions that fit in-setting. That's nice, that's great. But it's totally missing the point here.

I am telling you, I don't care about what makes sense in character, because what makes sense in character can be explained away with less than two paragraphs of writing. Sometimes, even a single sentence. You might have read Gunny as having requested just the name and heraldry but I can assure you, 100% assure you, from talking to him even right this very minute, that it's just not the case. You're reading it wrong.

We want the spirit of the Tenth.

We want the "Narrows". We want the "loose cog" fleet. The being out of step with the other fleets is a selling point. It is a feature of the Tenth. It is, further, the seminal feature that it resists or otherwise circumvents sweeping fleetwide regulations, many of which the players just don't like or don't feel are important. During my run as fleet manager it even became a canonized thing that Naoko (my Taisho) and Yui didn't get along on a personal level. I'm quite happy to see that Gunny, in his own way, continued this sort of disagreement onwards into the current 10th. It's just as diverse, just as small, just as entertaining. It's just as capable of providing the sort of Yamatai that you can be a bit 'bad' in, that you can interact with in an entertaining way, without the fear of being oblitherated by the (very canonized) Might Of Yamatai.

And frankly, further, I don't care, as a GM, what you think would make sense in setting, because if we were going to do that and carry every single technology and fleet into its logical conclusion, Yamatai would not only dominate the starmap even more than it presently does, it would also have crushed every other faction that opposed it, long ago. That's not hyperbole; that's the real truth. We manufacture so many reasons that Yamatai hasn't crushed its enemies that we look dyslexic as an astral nation. Instead we as GMs/FMs etc. have put forth arbitrary fleet caps. We've stopped wars. We've forced things. We write up enemies of the week, for god's sake, so you fancy gentlemen with your firm opinions about what can't possibly exist in Yamatai, and how it doesn't make sense the 10th fleet didn't modernize -

Well, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know how to be more understandable, more clear, than I've been already.

We're writing catgirls vs. tentacle monsters in space. If you're looking for the most well thought out battleplans and perfect symmetrical formations for fleets like you're reading Clausewitz, I think you might just be barking up the wrong tree.

We want the 10th Fleet unchanged, and there's plenty of reason to let us have it.

 

[Navian]

I think I did understand this, to the point where I already responded to it. If you don't want any changes to be made to the 10th fleet because there are problems that have a jury-rigged fix and you don't want to disrupt it, that, itself, should be a reason to promote a more comprehensive revision. Otherwise, it's essentially 'I don't want things to be fixed everywhere, because then this little corner won't be the only place where things work'.

This isn't just about what makes sense in-setting. It doesn't make sense OOC to make an exception because you don't like the rules; the rules can be changed, instead. We have a good opportunity to fix any problems with the way fleets are organized that make them difficult to use in the RP, and preserving one fleet's own unique fixes for the sake of itself and its players is, if nothing worse, terminally unambitious.

If you really think it's the only fleet that works for plots, why don't we do something a bit more? We could give every fleet some of this spirit, if it's such a good thing. If the problem is they're too large and well-organized, we can subdivide them. That's already part of this plan.

 

[raz]

I don't know how to be clearer.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Wes has been pretty clear about what he wants the future Star Army to look like. Better to work with them FM than against his vision, imo.

We want the 10th Fleet unchanged

Making it a task force under one of the new Fleet Plan fleets absolutely preserves the character of the Yamataian force currently occupying Yugumo far more than keeping the name of the command as "Tenth Fleet."

Everything on the topic has been pointed out on both sides a while ago. At this point it's up to Taisho Yui's player, I think.

 

[Gunsight1]

Thats not it at all @Navian, this is a case of wanting to preserve a setting element that a lot of people have put a lot of time and effort into and want to continu doing so, as well as preserve a unique setting for plots to take place in. If Tenth changes a unique setting will change, having effects on multiple active plots and altering the setting for those plots, possibly quite drastically. The fact that it is different doed not mean that it is broken

 

[Gallant]

That's true, it's up to Wes ultimately. I'm just writing in the hopes that he hears and considers.

And furthermore, as far as you're concerned, @Navian; it's not the only fleet that works for plot, and I never said that. Neither am I arguing that the other fleets should not adopt similar policies, or gain similar autonomy. They have always had the ability to change, and I understand that many of the current fleet revisions are targeted at fleets with inactive Fleet Managers, or fleet managers that have left the website. That is to say, this is folding in fleets that can't actively change, because the former system didn't work very well.

This is simply not the case with the 10th, which has had an active and engaged Fleet Manager since its inception. Disbanding the tenth and reforming it into another fleet or series of task forces is not only fixing what is not broken, in this particular case - already an exception - it is also specifically targeting this fleet's primary draw, which is, again, the fact that it is an exception, was originally written as an exception, has been played as an exception, etc. The Tenth Fleet existing as an exception was never the problem, is not a problem, and shouldn't be a problem in the future.

In fact, all things considered, the Tenth finding a way around the fleet mergers would actually be pretty consistent.

 

[CadetNewb]

Though I understand Wes wants to keep things neat and tidy, ultimately, doing so will also disrupt plots and players. These are things that they have worked on and RP'd with, turning them into actual setting elements. As a result, reorganizing some fleets would effectively destroy what they've worked on. Honestly, if a fleet has active fleet managers, I don't think it should be altered - there's nothing gained, and a lot lost. Not just the content that they have created, but, frankly, trust and respect too. Nobody is ever happy when what they have worked on is deleted arbitrarily in exchange for so little, and we've seen how that turns out in the past.

 

[Navian]

I still don't see how merging fleets destroys anything. The ships, starbases, officers, and assignments don't disappear. There's no deletion involved, except when it comes separately, like when a mission is no longer available, positions are no longer required, or ships become obsolete.

I don't see anything about these issues in this fleet plan, it only talks about mergers and assignments. Some Taisho positions will be removed, but not the ones that are currently played, so that shouldn't be harmful to players or GMs.

I don't think the 10th fleet being an exception is a problem, but it seems to be an attempt at fixing a problem by working around it instead of actually fixing it--and if this is all about 'don't change the 10th fleet' and not at all about changing the other fleets, that's a sign that the fix isn't helping anyone else.

 

[CadetNewb]

That's the thing. I do not believe this fix helps anyone Navian - it's just some custodial work to tidy up the wiki and make things stronger IC without aiding plots intentionally. Which also happens to give some of our GMs and players a hard time. You may think that nothing is lost through the merger, but I suspect that is because you have not worked on an endeavor such as this before. By merging the fleet - that is, the content that was worked on and made by these players - what they made is lost. Even if they regroup in this new fleet, they will not be able to function anymore. The reason why, is the autonomy that the 10th Fleet afforded the GMs and players. The sector that they were assigned to was presided over by them in the way they wanted in order to facilitate the types of plots and gameplay they wanted.

By merging fleets, not only is their hard work lost, but they are no longer able to control the fleet assets themselves, since they are to be standardized. With the standardization, the area under the 10th Fleet's charge is influenced differently, and the specific gameplay opportunities they want are gone, and as a result, they cannot RP as they wanted to.

That's why it's a big deal; it might just be a total write-off.

 

[raz]

I don't think Wes intends to simply trash anyone's hard work, tbh. Traditions, histories, and the warfighting styles of certain units will obviously carry over, as has been discussed earlier in this thread. Asserting that material will go to waste without evidence to back up the claim seems pretty disrespectful until we hear how Wes/Yui plans on handling Yugumo.

For all we know, Yui will let the assets currently stationed in the Outer Colonies keep doing their thing regardless of the command they end up under. Her announcement talked about how task forces would be semi-autonomous, after all. And part of the OOC reasoning is about getting rid of inactive Taisho, which Gunny's Atago Hinoko most certainly is not.

 

[Zack]

Maybe you should use this as an opportunity for RP and break away from Yamatai?

It seems that if you don't like central control, it doesn't make much sense for a centrol control to keep you around either.