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NTSE Issues

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I think you bring about some excellent points. They just didn't need to be framed in mudslinging.
So instead of talking about those excellent points, you focus on some imagined "mudslinging" that only exists if you want to view the objective truth that way?

You're great, Fred, but your post also illustrates the problem some of us keep talking about. Some of us want people to focus on the substance of what we're posting instead of any whatever slights someone else invents and takes offense to.

Again: STOP LIVING LIFE IN A PARANOID WAY WHERE EVERYTHING SAID TO YOU HAS NEGATIVITY BEHIND IT

I can't go re-live everyone's lives for them but part of existing in a healthy society is to assume good things about what people say to you, not assume that every possible word is an insult.
 
I'm in favor of having Syaoran as an additional NTSE mod. He's one of the named people I'd have absolutely no qualms seeing in the role.

Kim would be too, but I want to avoid putting too much on her plate. She's already Staff.
 
Syaoran and Kim are good choices. Fred's right though Kim does enough for us already. Also I have no problem with increasing the authority of NTSE mods to moderate. That said I think Syaoran's idea about requiring posts in the NTSE to be screened like the news was the best one so far.
 
It's a bit disheartening seeing a lack of recognition for a job, despite the fact my NTSE criticism has always been punctual and generally agreed on. But I guess I'm implied to have bias or some incapable personality despite having said thousands of times and shown in action plenty that I don't let personal reasons interfere in these matters.

But, that aside, I guess it's nice that people recognize others like Syaoran who'd be a good addition. I will always cite that NTSE shouldn't moderate as that's what Staff exist for, but it seems the consensus is that the idea isn't the one people want to try and keep working on.
 
This is just silly. Not only does this limit input from the public severely, but it forces the NTSE to act faster and gives them a lack of tools to address something that could be missed. 10 days isn't even long. Most submissions spend a week or more in the NTSE because there's quite a bit to read and then go through (especially in your submissions).

Timers and more pressure on mods when we got @CadetNewb saying he feels pressured because of someone he can block and tell a submitter to ignore seems like the most ass-backwards way to approach the issues.

Article posted by Legix Tuesday at 12:37AM and Approved by Ame Tuesday at 1:01 AM, clearly you don't believe your own words. You can scream that it was talked about in discord or other methods over and over again but until its discussed in here and set in stone..... it doesn't count. Using the same burden of proof you tend to apply to Cadet and his activites on the NTSE its more then enough to scream bias and special treatment no matter the complication of the article since you guys tended to do the same over the simplest pieces of tech and hold them up for weeks. This one a corporation passed in less then an hour... and using a more concise method... screams bias and special treatment.
 
Using the same burden of proof you tend to apply to Cadet and his activites on the NTSE its more then enough to scream bias and special treatment
If there is something wrong with or unapprovable about Legix's article then it's any community member or NTSE+Staff's prerogative to go and raise questions about it. Point something out if there is a problem with the approval there. Go ahead.

When things get held up in review or are re-reviewed, it's because something was wrong with the article. Why is that a personal issue to you?
 
The thing is, when I first began the job as an NTSE Mod, I was fine with people coming in giving their honest two cents. Always was - it was actually helpful.

The last year though? That's a very different animal all together, and that's what's burned me out. What I've seen is basically a very specific crowd of people always posting in the same people's threads, and always in opposition, and sometimes with the most pedantic pile of bull I've ever seen. Worse, I'm well aware that these very specific people posting in the same submitter's thread over and over again have an axe to grind. It is aggravating that this literal handful of people have abused the privilege - it's not a right - to post in the NTSE, just to get at the people they don't like. Having this happen for an entire year - for an entire goddamned year - I have found that I don't even care if they're very occasionally right anymore.

And that's why I'm taking a break from the NTSE. This has gone too far. Make the Tech mods actual mods.
 
Article posted by Legix Tuesday at 12:37AM and Approved by Ame Tuesday at 1:01 AM, clearly you don't believe your own words. You can scream that it was talked about in discord or other methods over and over again but until its discussed in here and set in stone..... it doesn't count. Using the same burden of proof you tend to apply to Cadet and his activites on the NTSE its more then enough to scream bias and special treatment no matter the complication of the article since you guys tended to do the same over the simplest pieces of tech and hold them up for weeks. This one a corporation passed in less then an hour... and using a more concise method... screams bias and special treatment.
So if I'm being shown bias and I want to eliminate all bias as mentioned in the following posts... what does that mean?

  • A deliberate attempt to ignore certain submissions.
  • Ensuring the NTSE stop deliberately hindering articles by ignoring them, as has happened to Frost seemingly multiple times as-of-late. As much as Arieg has complained, I again will point out that he has got well near 30+ articles approved in the past few months. This promotes more talk of bias because he got streamlined while some articles have sat in the NTSE for a month or more in that same timespan.
The workload is unbalanced because one side won't grab another's in this mess. The NTSE needs more mods, but giving the members more power is the definitive wrong way to handle this.

I just want people to start figuring out that the real issue is not the players, it's that people are rather trying to fight and argue instead of hear people out or just ignore them. It's on people who refuse to pick up X's submission because they openly admit bias and refuse to even try to work past it. It's literally a thousand other reasons that don't have to do with removing a player right.
Use PMs like you're supposed to and try to keep "NTSE Issues" relevant to actual NTSE issues like the shirking and avoiding of handling certain threads over the threads of friends. I'd love if instead of having to rely on @Ametheliana for all my submissions that @CadetNewb would have actually taken them. I'm sure Frost would have as well, but his threads only end up sitting there for a few months without a reply.

I've been saying it since Page 3. I want all of it gone. Saying I was shown bias and then me saying for it to be gone is like the biggest middle finger to receiving special treatment. Why would I do that if I actually thought I received/needed bias? You made me wait all this time and then gave me a reply like this? It's clear you didn't think it through and you clearly haven't figured out something important in all this.

If your lies of bias are even true, then I'm in a better position to argue against it because I've apparently benefited from it. My opinion and statements are triply validated because I know best about the issue because I can see it from the other side and validate it exists. But instead of realize that, you're trying to act like I needed bias to get an article approved that you spent the last few hours STUDYING over to try and figure out how to bring it down. And when you couldn't find it, you just defaulted to the fact it got approved fast.

Communication and clarity DEFINITELY matters. Again: this is why ALL my things in the NTSE pass fast. It's not just Ken-TEC. Everything I have put in the NTSE has cleared it faster than most articles, even from BEFORE Ame became an NTSE mod. So just stop, Arieg. It's really pathetic.
The thing is, when I first began the job as an NTSE Mod, I was fine with people coming in giving their honest two cents. Always was - it was actually helpful.

The last year though? That's a very different animal all together, and that's what's burned me out. What I've seen is basically a very specific crowd of people always posting in the same people's threads, and always in opposition, and sometimes with the most pedantic pile of bull I've ever seen. Worse, I'm well aware that these very specific people posting in the same submitter's thread over and over again have an axe to grind. It is aggravating that this literal handful of people have abused the privilege - it's not a right - to post in the NTSE, just to get at the people they don't like. Having this happen for an entire year - for an entire goddamned year - I have found that I don't even care if they're very occasionally right anymore.

And that's why I'm taking a break from the NTSE. This has gone too far.
I quoted the original post rather than the one you edited requesting mod powers, precisely because you seem to not realize that this happened to me. I didn't get an apology for it happening until just two days ago. You allowed the harassment to go on there, specifically trying to echo what even @Ira said was irrational harassment and apologized for. But we don't talk about the behavior exhibited there, instead you hone in on Frost. This is why the discussion isn't good, because we still have people refusing to acknowledge the entire issue just like Arieg is doing by trying to discredit me.

People need to stop acting like "this is it, screw this" because the reality is that everyone is still here and as far as I know, Cadet hasn't quit. You took a break. You've said it specifically that way multiple times for the reason it clearly isn't your intent to do more than strike because you're not a fan of how you've been treated. But no one will talk about how @Ametheliana was treated, no one will acknowledge the ignoring/bias shown toward Frost (but apparently we have to harp on that I was shown a faster approval time as a better issue?), and no one will stop pushing for these different goals instead of try to genuinely resolve or work on the very simple solutions outlined multiple times by @Syaoran.

If people would prefer to point and blame, instead of realize the petty "sides" thing is absurd, then we're going to be here and not get anything done. Just like the last two times the NTSE had issues, we brought them up, and then failed to fix it because we got distracted with alternative fixes.
 
What I've seen is basically a very specific crowd of people always posting in the same people's threads, and always in opposition, and sometimes with the most pedantic pile of bull I've ever seen. Worse, I'm well aware that these very specific people posting in the same submitter's thread over and over again have an axe to grind. It is aggravating that this literal handful of people have abused the privilege - it's not a right - to post in the NTSE, just to get at the people they don't like.
It has been repeatedly demonstrated that this "very specific crowd" you're talking about doesn't have "an axe to grind" and aren't trying to "get at" people they don't like. People post because they have concerns for the setting.

Know what trying to "get at" people you don't like looks like? It looks like repeatedly forcing the community to respect the use of a setting element that has no canonical justification. (Is that a better way to say it?)

Almost everyone in this thread has genuinely acknowledged that their perspective on things isn't the only one that exists and it seems to have kept everything pretty cordial. Why do you keep hammering home this assertion that criticism is an attack? It isn't true. Stop being a party to submissions that are broken, imbalanced, or don't make sense within canon — or simply realize that the submission will get criticized. Coordinate with other GMs and FMs and use the FM/GM board so everything's perfect. It's not hard.
And that's why I'm taking a break from the NTSE. This has gone too far. Make the Tech mods actual mods
We have all seen different tech mods lock threads. We have all seen different tech mods post in already locked threads. We know tech mods can move threads and edit thread titles (that's one of their main jobs). So either you're following @Fred's example and exercising extreme judicial restraint or you weren't trusted with the power (which I know isn't true because you've been doing the tech mod thing for years and the job requires mod powers).

Every deleted post gets moved to a staff forum. The worst that can happen to a tech mod for moderating a post is that staff members see them being biased with those moderation powers.
 
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The thing you don't realize is, as a mod, I don't have any powers to stop you from being harassed in the NTSE Legix. All I could do was provide the best feedback I could on your submission, which is exactly what I did. Because, the only tool I had on hand to stop any harassment was to lock the thread, effectively either killing your submission in the process or drawing out its whole approval time even more. That someone can be harassed, and effectively get results, is unacceptable.

Syaoran's suggestion of having all posts in the NTSE pend moderator approval is the best solution we've had so far - NTSE mods still see the feedback, and don't have to reveal it to the submitter or public at large if it is dishonest in its intent.
 
Communication and clarity DEFINITELY matters. Again: this is why ALL my things in the NTSE pass fast.
The fact the Warlock was well-written and I couldn't find any actual flaws in it despite deliberately trying to find a mistake was basically why it passed in seven minutes.

I was scouring the Warlock, trying to find somewhere that I could call Legix out on. I couldn't. I actually end up checking the people that I like more, simply because I don't want to be accused of bias.
 
I don't have a huge amount of time today, so I'm not going to be able to say a lot, actually planned on not really posting in here today because of that, but well my name has come up in a way frankly I did not expect. So as for the nominations for me as NTSE, well I think that's up to @Wes? And if people do want me as NTSE I'll give it a shot, but that's only if the NTSE is a shape that I agree with. I'm fine dealing with people ranting and raving if they do, but I don't want to support something that openly gives room for corruption just because it was an easy fix to something else, even though we had the chance to patch up all the holes. So even if Wes does come knocking with a request, it will be pending the design of the NTSE going forward.

As for all this, I must say...you guys have kinda gotten off track again, we're back to trying to prove someone wrong of justify ourselves. Aren't we supposed to be discussing designs for fixing the current issue with the environment known as the NTSE? Be that a systematic issue, or a behavioral issue, depending on what you believe.
 
The thing you don't realize is, as a mod, I don't have any powers to stop you from being harassed in the NTSE Legix. All I could do was provide the best feedback I could on your submission, which is exactly what I did. Because, the only tool I had on hand to stop any harassment was to lock the thread, effectively either killing your submission in the process or drawing out its whole approval time even more. That someone can be harassed, and effectively get results, is unacceptable.

Syaoran's suggestion of having all posts in the NTSE pend moderator approval is the best solution we've had so far - NTSE mods still see the feedback, and don't have to reveal it to the submitter or public at large if it is dishonest in its intent.
You have the ability to lock threads and I've have preferred it. Especially given that I could have been denied the harassment and the article opened/posted in with genuine input. This is my beef with it. But I definitely agree that people shouldn't be able to get away with it. But that's why I agreed with @Syaoran about a clearer establishment of rules and the enforcement of them. I don't think the NTSE need to get more power beyond that ability to lock the thread to halt the abuse. I just think we need to exercise caution over just trying to throw tons of things out like more power when we haven't had @Fred until recently.
 
You may prefer having the thread locked over leaving it open so it is quickly approved Legix, but in the end of the day, that's still being between a rock and a hard place. It's a Catch 22, because either way, a submitter suffers. Tech Mods just don't have the tools necessary to deal with this kind of crap. All we can do is ask them to leave or lock the thread, because this behavior is borderline enough that it can't be reported. Even look at what Fred said - he thinks you're crying wolf.

We. Don't. Have. The. Tools.
 
The rules are pretty clearly established, I think. Locking the thread doesn't punish the offender it stops all discussion. The power we are talking about is requiring mods to look at something, say it's relevant, and allow it. I have yet to hear a better solution from anyone. Yes, I would prefer only moderators, the submitter, and relevant FMs post but I am fine making this compromise.

What would your idea of better enforcement look like @Legix?
 
The power we are talking about is requiring mods to look at something, say it's relevant, and allow it.
Do you not realize that's just adding a middle man? Again, submitters don't have to pay heed to anyone but the reviewer or staff members.

That said, it's an acceptable idea because any one NTSE reviewer could decide that there's a point to someone's post and unleash it on the world. Which gives me the impression that basically nothing would change other than the lack of a ton of rude follow-up posts provoked by a submitter's hurt feelings.
 
The rules are pretty clearly established, I think. Locking the thread doesn't punish the offender it stops all discussion. The power we are talking about is requiring mods to look at something, say it's relevant, and allow it. I have yet to hear a better solution from anyone. Yes, I would prefer only moderators, the submitter, and relevant FMs post but I am fine making this compromise.

What would your idea of better enforcement look like @Legix?
As I stated and Syaoran outlined, better enforcement is the following.
  • More clear rules in the NTSE.
  • Ignoring and not "taking the bait" or whatever when someone comes in to be disruptive/break said rules.
  • Allowing the Staff (such as @Fred who, again, has had an increasing presence and been on top of disciplinary work) to handle disputes.
It's not anything out there. It's just a simple shift in how we currently insist that NTSE mods handle it.

You may prefer having the thread locked over leaving it open so it is quickly approved Legix, but in the end of the day, that's still being between a rock and a hard place. It's a Catch 22, because either way, a submitter suffers. Tech Mods just don't have the tools necessary to deal with this kind of crap. All we can do is ask them to leave or lock the thread, because this behavior is borderline enough that it can't be reported. Even look at what Fred said - he thinks you're crying wolf.

We. Don't. Have. The. Tools.
Fred didn't say I was crying wolf. He said everyone was crying wolf. All the people involved in the petty reporting war. And if anything, if it's just crying wolf then that'd mean it isn't a big issue. I've seen staff act when people do clear rule skirting, so like... I don't really understand the idea here.

And my submission wouldn't have been approved quickly if it got locked in the instance I mentioned of GENUINE harassment. Because logically, the NTSE should be able to still handle the article. We're alright with giving the NTSE the ability to silence people's posts (which while they get moved, they ARE kept out of the public eye potentially forever), but the NTSE won't act with the power to lock a thread to prevent harassment now. You already HAVE the tools to help a submission, as well as the ability to still post until a thread can be unlocked. This is something other NTSE as well as you have demonstrated.

Edit: Since it's relevant, I'm adding an edit BETWEEN what I originally wrote. I understand that the idea is to speed up the approval process... but I think it runs fast enough when things actually GET picked up. The issue as far as I've seen it is a lack of submissions being taken. If my submission slows down but it saves me harassment, I'd definitely prefer it. I hope anyone who's sane would as well. And, as I point out: it can be unlocked when issues are resolved (which is punctual thanks to Staff speed) and allow people to still get to the meat of things. That's it for the edit.

I'd appreciate it, though, if you tried to recognize Fred's entire statements. The agreements earlier specifically came out because multiple people such as @Syaoran could even cite that there's just too many people with soft-skin. That a lot of people are engaged in the petty arguing. It's not "just you Legix". And I don't appreciate that spin on his words being done to try and make it so you can discredit my points that you could have but did not act with what power you already had available. This includes other NTSE as well.
 
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I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Though it is obvious Fred was referring to us all, I was using your experience as an example. The problem with locking a thread is that it still slows down and delays a submission, making it more of a hassle for both submitter and reviewer. We have to unlock and lock the thread whenever we want to post in it, and that's a pain. Even though it can be fought through, the fact remains that both submitter and NTSE mod actually have to fight through it. That's another obstacle, another hurdle, that shouldn't even be there.

Considering the goal of the hecklers, that's still a win in their book, which is not acceptable. Locking a thread is a blunt instrument, not a scalpel, and thus far, Syaoran's suggestion of having posts pending moderator approval is the best solution I've seen.
 
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