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ArsenicJohn
Is there any harm in doing a 1-month trial of this system?
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NTSE Issues
- Thread starter FrostJaeger
- Start date
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- Tags
- issueresolvement ntse
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Legix
Well-Known Member
This was actually a solution we talked about in VC the other night. Personally, I'd prefer it if I received all the main issues at once or at least a large chunk. The "speed" of the NTSE is that people "nitpick" one or two things at a time. Some say it's to be "nice", but I don't need someone to be nice. I need my things approved :Lc
@ArsenicJohn the harm could be that 1-month leads to things being approved that we need to repeal and work out afterward. The check and balance comes from EVERYONE. I'm not confident the NTSE could fact-check everything entirely without the help of the community, simply based on the fact that they DO miss things.
META_mahn
Well-Known Member
You rang?
That's also why I'm such a checklist advocate. You're given everything *right there,* just fix it and meet me in VC for round of PlayerUnknown's Frying-Pan-And-Smoke-Grenade-Simulator.
Addendum to my posts:
I've commented in my chat I feel much more solid running my own D&D campaign rather than making a plot on SARP despite the D&D campaign taking much more work. There's so many requirements placed on FMs and GMs that don't have to do with explicity creating more content that I don't think I'll like being a GM.
By "creating more content," I mean 80% of a GM's work load on SARP should be writing more plot. Sure, GMs can participate in JPs and whatnot but job #1 should take up 80% of their time and that job is "write more plot." More content, more stuff to play with, more everything.
In a similar way 80% of an FM's job should be writing more content. Expand more lore, make more culture articles, etc, to the extent I feel like there should be a 1:1 ratio of tech article and culture article submitted.
"but that's too much work" Is it so hard to make another city or a tourist spot? No, I don't think so.
I don't feel like weaponry is "more content." I feel like lore is "more content." Exploring that lore is part of "more content."
Arieg
DEFCON Everybody Dies
End of the day.... the method that involves players or those whom are not involved with the faction the submission effects does not work and has created this situation. It has effectively made the NTSE as it is now not fit for purpose, additionally it has created an unbalanced and unfair workload on what is effectively only two NTSE mods (Fred and Cadet) due to the others only occasionally selecting and doing reviews.
Bullroarer
Inactive Member
As a frequent submitter to the NTSE, i would welcome any new changes @Wes wishes to try. I agree on the submission process he proposes. This would of course require new mods, as the workload may increase due to new and old players submitting ideas being submitted. As for the FM/GM issue, i am glad to have a civil discourse about it.
Syaoran
Retired Staff
You can't say that because we've only really tried one method. Not every method that allows player comments doesn't work.
I don't see why everyone is complaining about player behavior, but they're against the ideas that will actually fix the bad behavior. As things are, a player could still make hell for a submitter, they just have to make a thread complaining about the article they think was unfairly submitted. And the hassle still comes by. The problem with the NTSE isn't the idea, but rather the implementation and lack of enforcement. Simply put, the majority of our problems on the site can be fixed by proper enforcement of rules. I'm not talking about some kind of super strict near dictatorship, but when is the last time someone actually got their NTSE privileges revoked temporarily?
Edit: And that question at the end is rhetorical, I know moderation isn't discussed. But my point is to emphasize just how under used moderation is. Things don't happen until something very extreme happens.
Legix
Well-Known Member
So do we talk about how Cadet had let Frost's submissions sit out? Or mine? Or really all the others?
I mean, I get it. You have to act like he's done his job because he selects yours fast... but like... that's not the case.
The NTSE has been slow (sorry to @META_mahn who has been picking up speed) because people across the entire team aren't handling submissions. Fred is just memeing and isn't even an NTSE mod AFAIK. Pretty sure Fred is just staff who comes in to handle issues within it.
The workload is unbalanced because one side won't grab another's in this mess. The NTSE needs more mods, but giving the members more power is the definitive wrong way to handle this.
Meta had a good point in this, too. It's what I've said about FMs multiple times as well: content is culture. Weapons and guns are fine... but there's a reason why I took the time to invest in the Delsaurians recently, made a Civilian Tech corporation that sells LEGITIMATE CIVILIAN GEAR, and have been handling things like Awards for @Ametheliana and @Gunhand4171 in Nepleslia. Creating culture and thicc'ness to the setting is far more important than the like 30 weapons, modules, and ship articles that got passed the last few months. It was part of the discussion earlier, even.
I just want people to start figuring out that the real issue is not the players, it's that people are rather trying to fight and argue instead of hear people out or just ignore them. It's on people who refuse to pick up X's submission because they openly admit bias and refuse to even try to work past it. It's literally a thousand other reasons that don't have to do with removing a player right.
META_mahn
Well-Known Member
A wise man (my band director) once said:
If you do your job you shouldn't feel bad.
I HAVE NOT BEEN DOING MY JOB.
Now I am. Kinda.
Pass me Mister Arieg's Missile #329.
Syaoran
Retired Staff
And with actual moderation being done that wouldn't happen. Because players doing that would be punished
Bullroarer
Inactive Member
as to the "culture" article issue. I have submitted almost all culture article. systems, corporations, characters. People can do that. But some people enjoy submitting tech. I am submitting those as well. Let's try Wes's suggestion of private submissions. we already can and do private character review and submissions. I dont see why we cant do the same, or have the same option for other types of submissions as well.
Ethereal
Banned Member
This system sounds like a good idea, at least as a trial run if nothing else. No sense in not trying a potentially beneficial change.
Also I agree that RP is much more valuable than pumping out the article for never-used-shuttle number 29347 for whatever metric for deciding FMs and "power" so to speak. Not that I agree with the concept of people holding more power than others on a community based on shared experiences.
Also I agree that RP is much more valuable than pumping out the article for never-used-shuttle number 29347 for whatever metric for deciding FMs and "power" so to speak. Not that I agree with the concept of people holding more power than others on a community based on shared experiences.
For everyone in favor of this "mystery box" idea, there's just one massive problem: Ten years ago, we tried the exact same thing - and ten years ago, it failed. As @Syaoran said in one of his earlier posts, isn't doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result the definition of insanity?
After all, there's a reason we've been using the current system for many, many years: up until recently, it worked - and, as a matter of fact, still does (albeit with lots of drama).
After all, there's a reason we've been using the current system for many, many years: up until recently, it worked - and, as a matter of fact, still does (albeit with lots of drama).
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Kim
スター軍の司書
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ArsenicJohn
With all respect Frost, you weren't here ten years ago, so I am not sure how you can have any clue why it failed. Even if it was tried, changing nothing isn't exactly trying something new either.
With all due respect @ArsenicJohn, I'd recommend actually reading the threads that I linked - specifically, the second one - as it mentions the "mystery box debacle." Besides, we've been using the current "format" of the submission process since at least 2009 (if not 2008) - so if the "mystery box" didn't fail, then why isn't being used today?
Syaoran
Retired Staff
'cept we are saying something should change Arsenic. A lot of you in favor of removing player input are acting like we haven't explicitly said that we do want things to change, and actually given solutions that we think will work. We just don't think removing player input is the answer.
Legix
Well-Known Member
With all respect, it's not comforting that people who were here back then and were involved in the mess are pushing for it. Especially when less extreme options are available to try out and not end up screwing up community involvement.
I don't really get why people are doing private character reviews... that... seems silly. And it definitely isn't related to this. It actually seems completely ridiculous that people are privately submitting characters when I'm pretty sure there hasn't really been much outrage there in months.
Kim
スター軍の司書
So there is more than one way to weigh in on a submission for a setting than this formalized process- you talk to the player or you talk to the faction manager before you make something for that faction. As a submitter, you should have already started talking to your appropriate FM before you create something for it. I have done that each time I have written something that was background fluff loosely based on something pre-existing for Nepleslia or Yamatai. You should start a dialogue before it even hits the forum for approval.
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