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Uniform Updates for the Star Army of Yamatai

Discussion in 'Setting Discussion' started by Wes, Jul 22, 2005.

  1. Rizzo

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    I'd like to add that while the SAOY is predominantly female many other factions militarys are not. The uniform needs to be dignified, of course, and also something that is universally taken seriously. If an officer is trying to negotiate a delicate situation a male may be either less inclined to listen or distracted by her short skirt. Maybe that isn't a major problem, seeing as Yamatai flies in some mean warships but it may also be a factor to consider, not every know faction, or even unknown faction, will be as women friendly as Yamatai. Look to the middle east and even India, women are abused there and are often treated worse than animals. A matriarchal military needs its uniforms to reflect the nation's power and complement her authority so that even in a vastly different culture no one would dare look down on her.

    However, in an emergency a soldier needs to be able to quickly lose the uniform to operate PA, so what we need may just be impossible to get. We need clothing with a super professional appearance AND we need it to be easily removed... I don't think I've ever seen that done.
     
  2. Dumont

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    So I'd like to clarify that my asking whether people were getting at skimpier uniforms wasn't me condoning or condemning it.

    On my part I've already given my account at great length about the relative design choices of the star army uniform to Wes, and it amounted to 'the uniform can look good on a woman or look bad on a woman, it depends on her body type'. What I would like to know is:

    Everyone in here is saying that the uniform is too masculine. How would people make the uniforms more feminine?

    Seriously, link me up dudeguys. I want some of them examples from fiction or whatever. What sort of design elements are you hoping for?
     
  3. Wes

    Wes Founder & Admin
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    Not everyone in here is saying that. Cadetnewb is saying that. I'm not saying that. I really like the Type 35 design and I wouldn't have approved it if I didn't. Also, I don't think sexiness or skimpiness should be a goal here - duty uniforms should look classy and sharp, and working uniforms should look professional.
     
  4. raz

    raz A Princess of Yamatai
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    If the uniform's art is any indication, the jacket was definitely designed to be a woman's cut before it was adapted for the men. In fact, I'd still say that the uniform looks more fitting on a Neko girl than it does most of those men. Here are some pics of Chinese girls in Service Dress, plus a bonus jumpsuit. They don't look masculine and mannish next to their male counterparts because of their military jackets. They just look uniform. I can see the Type 35 being scaled back to just officer and chief wear, though, as is the case in most irl navies.
     
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  5. Wes

    Wes Founder & Admin
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    I dunno, I was hoping to keep the Type 35 in its present shape/use until at least YE 40. The reasoning is there's a LOT of character art (mainly chibis) that would be obsolete if I changed it. The intent of the Type 35 was to make a more polished, refined version of the Type 22 Duty Uniform (the original Star Army uniform), that could be used for a long time. Basically I'm saying that the stability of the current duty uniform is important. That said, there's a bit more leeway with things like accessories (e.g. caps, footwear, etc) which has allowed us to add jika-tabi and officer caps.
     
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  6. raz

    raz A Princess of Yamatai
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    That's a great point. We're the Star Army, too, so no need to jump on Naval uniform traditions suddenly.

    In the end, though, if people don't like the Type 35 then they can band together and ask that their GM/Captain change their Uniform of the Day/Week orders. Captains still get to select what uniforms are worn on their ship, right?
     
  7. Gunsight1

    Gunsight1 Potato Salad
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    I think the 35 makes a good class A duty uniform for when you want to look clean cut and good and official. Keep it as that for sure! I just like the 30 series better as a personal preference. It was the main uniform when I joined and its the one I like best. I think they make a great geneeal duty uniform thats more confortable looking for when the more refined 35 is not called for.

    I know we hsve the 30c right now as an opional more casual uniform, but I'd love to see the 30a and 30b brought back as well for the same use. There is a good amount of art that uses those around too.

    Also, one of the things I've really liked in the new Star Trek films is how they have different sets of uniforms.. The more official and sleek grey uniforms for when at earth, which also act as a full dress uniform. The casual ship board duty uniforms and the new starbase uniforms in Beyond. All have a perpose, all are really cool. Not saying we should emulate that, just saying it is cool :3
     
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  8. CadetNewb

    CadetNewb Well-Known Member

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    I believe the Type 30C is a modernization of the Type 30B Gunsight. What we're missing, is only a modernized Type 30A.

    Anyways. To be honest Wes? I don't think it matters if any piece of artwork does not represent what is currently being issued. It's completely 100% ok if they don't in fact. Instead, what I would say is that what matters the most, is if they're they're enjoyed. Plus, they're still very valuable since they would provide a look back at what was previously used. I mean, look at all our artwork on the site. Even if it's not being issued? It's some very nice eye candy. That's what counts. That we enjoy it.

    Though, to be honest Raz, I'm just not seeing how it was made as a woman's cut first. To me, it looks like a men's cut that someone had tried to repurpose to being a woman's cut. Though, I gotta be clear on something else too; I don't recall saying it made the women look masculine. It's just that the outfits themselves are, creating an odd juxtaposition between themselves and the women wearing them. I also can't say this enough either; I think they look boring. Like, just another drab sci-fi uniform that's all business. Hell, it's so formal and stuffy at this point that the only difference between the Class A Formal and Class B Everday would be just a bunch of medals on the chest.

    That's it.

    I actually talked about previous uniforms before. Basically had some fun going over them and what made them nice. Honestly, in comparison to the current uniform, almost all those uniforms have much more life, visual appeal and meaning to them. Where the current uniform is very generic, and can fit into most typical sci-fi, those uniforms looked great, made the woman wearing them look even greater, and said, "I'm Star Army!" clear and loud. People looking at them are immediately told what the Star Army is. They're told that the Star Army is a military, and a futuristic one. One that can be cattish and a tease. And, utterly lethal. A pistol at the side, especially the extremely lethal NSP, though subtle, makes this clear. Pictures are meant to be worth a thousand words, and hopefully, ones of import.

    The Type 35 doesn't really say much. I mean, if it weren't for the Hinomaru, I would overlook it and not even realize it's Yamataian.

    That? That is not good uniform design. The Star Army's uniform design evolved over the years, and what happened here, was a step backwards, right into the first, original design. And to be honest? First, original designs are not always the best thing since sliced bread. Sometimes they're place holders, or even non-functioning and crappy prototypes. Sometimes, there's nothing special about them at all. What I'm saying is, we left that type of uniform behind for a reason.

    Why did we ever go back?
     
    #908 CadetNewb, Aug 9, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  9. Dumont

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    I actually just wanted to get a bunch of dudes on the internet to talk fashion and see what happens, Wes.

    At the same time I got far too many likes on me going 'you just want skimpy stuff', which made me want nudge this towards a discussion of design choices rather than people calling for more skin to be shown. I can't tell you how often 'make it more feminine' is just a substitute for 'make it more stripper-like', and a call for examples of design is more likely to have people think twice before linking something totally inappropriate for a military uniform.

    At worst, you get some ideas for civilian fashion, Wes dudeguyman.
     
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  10. CadetNewb

    CadetNewb Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, I do think the Type 35 should remain in inventory for officers and formal affairs. However, for the 'face' of Yamatai and potentially the site - the rank and file - I don't think it's suitable. When constructing a uniform for a setting, it should convey to some extent what the potential player can expect. A uniform says a lot.

    Though I can't speak for others *cough* those pervs quietly watching out there *cough*, I can say that I really do mean the uniforms should be more feminine.

    On the uniform nostalgia thread I made, I even make observations regarding certain design features that do so, perhaps on purpose or incidentally. With the Type 30s for an example, you'll notice the outline or 'cut' of the uniform is very smooth and tends to follow the user's body closely. In comparison, the Type 35 actually appears stiffer like a suit jacket would, and I've already pointed out the outline of the shoulders. Next, there's that color difference between the chest and the rest of the body. You see it on most SAoY uniforms as well as the Type 30s, however, there's a key detail here that you might overlook; the material the chest and shoulders are made up of are very different. The chest is something that is uniformly smooth, while the arms and shoulders are not; this makes the chest stand out more, especially since it's brightly colored in comparison.

    The triangular upper portion of the chest further emphasizes the chest as well, making this part almost-sorta have a faux-corset effect with how it wraps around and over the bust. This impression is further strengthened by the material used in the shoulders and arms. It may have a sweater-like pattern, but it's been seen hugging its wearers so closely, you could see every single little curve. Basically, this sweater-like stuff gives off the impression that the shoulders are bare, further strengthening that subtle impression of a corset being worn. Looking at the pictures I linked in this other post, you can even see their clavicles with how thin the material is. With other images, you'll see that same material be thicker, like an actual sweater. Honestly, my head-canon has it that the material can be as thin as spandex, or thick as as sweater depending on what you go and grab; in other words, there are different versions for different climates.

    They look attractive in spandex or sweaters though.

    With the Type 35 though, the effect is not as strong. The shoulders are made of the same material, it doesn't hug the wearer as closely, and there's the hard-break from the zipper's covering there, which spoils the effect further by telling you, 'this is a jacket'. And with jackets, it's usually implied you're wearing something underneath, such as a shirt of some sort. The Type 30? That is the shirt. An additional option for both though, would be the straight skirt. While the pleated skirt is fun and girlish, the straight skirt can be used to reflect maturity very well. Yui, Hamada Shizu, Helen Klein and Ise Katae are good examples of this. The addition of sidearms such as the NSP, or even a character carrying a knife or sword also makes subtle suggestions as well; these are deadly, and imply that individuals that carry them, such as Fujiwara Miu, are as well. It's why I honestly think a knife should be standard issue, and appear on the uniform in some form as a symbol.

    Also as a handy letter opener, bottle opener, wire cutter, present-unwrapper, person un-lifer and so forth.

    Anyways, refocusing on the original bit? Feminine in appearance does not mean 'stripper-like'. In fact, they are two separate things. More subtle effects and design choices will achieve what we're looking for, all without having to lose some clothing.
     
    #910 CadetNewb, Aug 10, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
  11. Gunsight1

    Gunsight1 Potato Salad
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    Person un-lifer.... ;) I like that
     
  12. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, with the top and bottom points or triangles that the uniforms have, something like a 'swimsuit' style design could be interesting. Basically something like the type 30 bodysuit, but make the front panel cover the entire torso with the bottom point going over the hips/crotch. Maybe extend the 'sweater' material over the rest of the arms and legs? Kinda like the Alpha costumes of Cammy, Juni, Juli, etc.
     
  13. Wes

    Wes Founder & Admin
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    Let's not forget that the Type 35 duty uniform doesn't cover the same niche as the Type 22 did. Back then, we used the same uniform for basically everything, which is why duty uniform had cargo pants by default. But since the working uniform was developed, the duty uniform has been more "business wear" or "formal wear." Maybe we should look at an update to the working uniform instead.

    Here's what I have been thinking about:
    • The new working uniform would have the same colors as the duty uniforms (e.g. the regal blue top and cadet blue bottom)
    • Pants: Choice of cargo pants or yoga pants (sportswear is everywhere these days!) or possibly skorts
    • Tops: Something like a ruggedized version of the Type 30, maybe based on the Type 37A Jacket. Could have male/female versions.
    • Accessories: Type 32 Belt like the current working uniform
     
  14. Amaryllis

    Amaryllis Well-Known Member

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    How is 4 likes far too many? Why do likes even matter? Sometimes people give them out very casually, sometimes they don't.
    They don't necessarily mean people sincerely agree with you. They might like your post because they think it's a funny observation or that it's funny to appear to agree with it or they agree with the sentiment but don't think what is stated is reality.

    I don't see uniforms possibly showing more skin as much of an issue when Neko can cover any part they want any timway they want at any time using volumetric projection which is an innate biological ability.

    Also the word skimpy is questionable to me because it implies less material is used than necessary for proper standards.

    What are the standards in a far future highly technologically advanced society that can make people from scratch without a man or a woman? Complete nudity and sex in public is legally accepted in Yamatai. Women are potentially in a better position to objectify men than vice versa. They (Neko) might actually be more likely to objectify people of both genders in general. Neko also can only get pregnant if they want to and pretty much can't get diseases. Last time I checked SAINT Neko can change their genitals and gender at will and be any combination of man and female by manipulating their bodies. How do we know they aren't doing most of the hazing and bullying? For all we know the guys are the ones with public service advisory statements about statistics like 1 in 5 of them will be raped or suffer sexual assault in their lives. The Neko are the ones that always have perfect memories, super strength, stamina and durability. For all we know men might be seen as pitiful because there's no way they can compete with the massive turgid clit dicks some Neko can craft at will or their likely nearly functionally boundless sexual stamina. Maybe many men enlist and immediately get Neko bodies to avoid being seen as pieces of meat and punching bags. Neko might also be desensitized to nudity and sexual imagery as factory grown ones don't grow up with parents telling them to think about abstinence and choosing partners wisely. We also don't know if they often have religion to caution or restrict them. Given that basically all that can come of sex for them in terms of negative consequences is hurt feelings many might have endless orgies and grow bored with it. In addition, the empress, the prime minister and the top military leader are all female. Plus I'd ask what the rate of homosexuality is when it comes to Neko. And yet another thing, gender and body proportions might be practically on the level of fashion statements for many people in Yamatai given that people can change gender and measurements and appearance in general at will. On top of that maybe a Neko won't care about a skirt or pants because she'll decide to craft additional protection for her body when useful as some can turn their blood into weapons and grow additional limbs so I imagine they can generate improvized external armor. Another possibility is taking advantage of the ability to make body modifications like a tail or claws and adding a thick layer of fur to their bodies that is water proof and protects from external heat like some dogs that have a double coat of fur.
     
    #914 Amaryllis, Aug 10, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2016
  15. Wes

    Wes Founder & Admin
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    I'm pretty sure people liked it because it was a joke and they thought it was amusing. Even though I gave it a serious response, I knew that too.

    I guess it's a factor that the more skin area they have, the better their volumetrics should work. That said, it occurs to me that if we allow for more gender-differentiated uniforms, species-differentiated ones might be a thing too. Already the sleeveless top is allowed for Phodians, Kodians, and some furred/feathered species, and we have Elysian uniforms with wing-holes and uniforms with tail-holes.
     
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  16. raz

    raz A Princess of Yamatai
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    We need to bring back the Type 30 Female Bodysuit in full force. Was the perfect working uniform for Neko. Could probably even do a guy version that incorporates elements of the current working uniform (pants instead of tights). Speaking of, the current working uniform jumpsuit is really cool, imo. Reminds me of DS9 uniforms for some reason.
    The way it fits (very tight) is probaby not too comfortable to work in for guys. This is probably due to the fact that Neko, the dominant species, are typically feminine personalities and the society designs clothes as such. That's all I'm postulating
     
  17. Edto Xar'Sivaree

    Edto Xar'Sivaree Lizard Freak!
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    I've actually been contemplating that while reading through this thread. Yamatai seems to like their skirts and such, but the body suit was quite the good Uniform as it allowed the Neko's to operate SPINE and AIES without removing their clothing. That's one of the prime features in its description. So, I've sorta been designing a uniform that is the body suit, but with skirt frills to maintain the idea. IDK how well that would be received, though.
     
  18. Wes

    Wes Founder & Admin
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    I don't think we'll ever bring back the Type 30 bodysuit. I never liked the look of it. When I decided we were going to bring back bodysuits in 2011/YE 33 (at @DocTomoe's suggestion), I chose the iconic original Type 22 design over the Type 30 version. Currently it's authorized only for female Nekovalkyrja and Yamataians.

    [​IMG]

    I could use some new art for this if we're going to keep it around, which I'd like to.
     
  19. CadetNewb

    CadetNewb Well-Known Member

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    @Dumont - Like Amary said, don't take 'Likes' seriously. I honestly just found what you said quite humorous, even though I want the opposite for the uniforms. I mean, some skin is nice, but, only in the right contexts. Naturally, this isn't it.

    Anyways, looking at both the Type 22 and Type 30 Female Bodysuits, I would have to say that the Type 30 would require more work to modernize it. If I had to guess, though it looked nice, the Type 30 was a bit too cluttered in comparison to the Type 22. The chest piece stood out in comparison to the body, with the same going to the sweater-pattern material/spandex, as well as the shoulder pieces. That made it look bulkier, and less appealing to the eye. Instead, I would suggest a modernized Type 22 under a new name. Likely the Type 38 or something. With modernizing the Type 22, we already have the bulk of the work done for us. I think it just needs to have the shoulder pieces removed to slim it down a bit and 'reveal' the shoulders more.

    Though, another thing to address with the Type 22 or a modernized version of it, is to make sure the article details how the sleeves and stockings can be removed. It's an important piece of history, and would come in handy should a Hemosynth user be wearing it again. Also, a quality of life upgrade; make it so there's two zipper sliders. One at the neck like normal when suited up, and another somewhere at the coccyx or sacral area that can be pulled from the back to the front. Otherwise, it's a hassle to go to the restroom in. Alternatively, we can just science the hell out of it.

    Going back to the Type 30 and Type 35 though, I would suggest thinking about the relationship the two have with one another. I believe that the Type 35 is more suited for officers, while the Type 30 would better suit the rank and file. Nothing says, "I'm in Charge" when hailing frequencies are open, and you see a bridge of Neko, all in Type 30's except for one. The person sitting in the middle of the bridge, with a Type 35.
     
  20. Ametheliana

    Ametheliana Ame Ame Ame
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    30C rules and Type 22 rules as they are imo

    CadetNewb had a good point about the Type 35. It isn't what I would put my infantry in, for instance

    I wouldn't want to see skorts and cargo pants around, honestly.
     

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