Rejected Submission C9 'Pine Class Optionally Manned Warship'

It looks like you’re ignoring all the RP on this topic. This conversation also doesn’t appear to be contributing anything.

If you want to convince other people, you need to bring something to support your case. I can point to the ArcMark article as an example of how USO has An absurdly strong economy for its size. I can also point to the Alemi’s RP or the numerous products being bought and sold by USO / S6 as an example of a strong economy.

These threads exist so that people can give their opinions. That's their whole purpose. To simply dismiss someone's point of view because you don't agree with it is silly, arrogant and rude.

You cannot “point to the ArcMark article as an example of how USO has An[sic] absurdly strong economy for its size,” @Zack, because the Arcmark (thanks to being tied to the value of a meal from Akemi’s) has nothing to do with the state of USO’s economy; similarly, you cannot “point to the Alemi’s[sic] RP or the numerous products being bought and sold by USO / S6 as an example of a strong economy,” because the success of a single company does not by any stretches of the imagination mean that the rest of a faction’s economy is doing well - and what transactions are you referring to, anyways? As far as I’m aware, none of the other factions in the setting have placed any large-scale orders for anything produced by S6 and/or USO.

Ok frost, what constitutes a strong economy on SARP?

What I personally believe “constitutes a strong economy on[sic] SARP” is not related to the topic of this thread, @Zack.

Rizzo said:

Please then, do me a favor and attempt to sever a Lego kit into pieces. You will find that each section you remove has fewer blocks in it. The entire kit may have only 100 blocks, with some being specialty parts. The location of specialty Parts after disassembly depends on which piece is removed, or more specifically how it was removed. Thus the argument that every section would be armed is incorrect. Out of the entire ship there are a number of weapons. During the demolition of the structure some of these weapons will inevitably be destroyed, while other chunks may not contain any weapons at all to begin with.

Break your car into 10 pieces, then tell me how many pieces contain a tire. You will find that only four pieces of your car contain a tire.

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Okay, so I figured I'd chime in after doing some reading. Particularly because I saw this and it struck me as odd.

Basically, this is you giving the best-case scenario for how the ship could be used. Best-case, the ship doesn't get chopped up and nesting-egg itself into tons of smaller battleships. Best case.

Now, I for one don't like to leave submissions up to swinging best-case scenarios. Last time people were given freedom to have leeway backfired and seems to have a running history of being why systems end up being required. The RP gets bad enough via misrepresentations or differing uses that things can quickly swing into the worst-case and become problematic. I for one would like to avoid the concept of fragmenting/nesting-egg style craft being banned in the future because of Zack or someone doing such a thing and causing that problem.

The idea of a fragile ship aside (primarily because this thing is armed with T15 weapons, so that makes me skeptical it'll be treated as weak), there's honestly the problem of the economy. There's been an argument that "muh RP did this", but there's also a fixed currency available via the Akemi RP recently. Pretty sure the currency has been changed and as a result is no longer as susceptible to "we can just lie to make it worth more".

FrostJaeger said:

You cannot “point to the ArcMark article as an example of how USO has An[sic] absurdly strong economy for its size,” @Zack, because the Arcmark (thanks to being tied to the value of a meal from Akemi’s) has nothing to do with the state of USO’s economy; similarly, you cannot “point to the Alemi’s[sic] RP or the numerous products being bought and sold by USO / S6 as an example of a strong economy,” because the success of a single company does not by any stretches of the imagination mean that the rest of a faction’s economy is doing well - and what transactions are you referring to, anyways? As far as I’m aware, none of the other factions in the setting have placed any large-scale orders for anything produced by S6 and/or USO.

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I want to point out that their currency value isn't the thing here. In my understanding, USO doesn't have ease of access to resources necessary to produce something as close to top-of-the-line as the C9 appears to be. Even if we're under the idea USO could use the ArcMark effectively outside of USO space, they'd still be spending absurd amounts to acquire goods. FSC/FBS would be spending tons. Otherwise, they'd have to mine and produce these things themselves. Now, unless I personally missed something, USO does NOT have the industrial might to produce and support a large battleship sophisticated enough that it can keep operating when getting sliced to pieces. But that's just me: if there's RP to suggest they have the resource access, then I suppose that FSC could bankrupt/run their redline trying to financially bring-about something bearing T15 cannons and essentially the capacity to turn into various T14 and T13 battleships.

But yes: I think that saying it's fragile as a defense is very poor one. Just because it's X big doesn't mean you HAVE to give it T15 durability. You can class it as a T13 and add a very simple note that the armor for it is THAT weak. Which honestly, if the numbers are the problem, what's the issue with changing them if the focus is on RP? I just don't personally get it. I've never had this problem with submitting ships or things before and even remember downscaling parts of my Jackdaw to fit the system with remarkable ease. It didn't stop me from portraying it accurately in my RP.

So riddle me this, @FrostJaeger. If your opinion on what constitutes a good economy isn't related does that mean you're bringing this thread off topic?

@Legix legit guessing that you're not yet familiar with the system I made.

Rizzo said:

So riddle me this, @FrostJaeger. If your opinion on what constitutes a good economy isn't related does that mean you're bringing this thread off topic?

@Legix legit guessing that you're not yet familiar with the system I made.

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Your scalar thing? I remember it well enough. But you were also trying to have one-size-fits-all that could scale up and only changed with power input, AFAIK. It wasn't quite the same as a ship that could break up and boast potentially the same firepower.

Unless you're referring to something else. Honestly haven't followed much FSC and USO contraptions in the last few months or so, what with being FM of Nepleslia and running other things. But I've not had a problem even once in my various NTSE submissions, so beats me guy.

Okay, that makes sense, I just needed to know where you were at with us @Legix. Candonallowed the economy to collapse after a bad purchase S6 made and used the situation to sieze economic control by pursuading, or just killing anyone that rejected their place in his economic plan. By all accounts it was evil, but the result is a lack of people to resist him has now made it possible for the Frontier Banking Service to hide the total number of AMs in circulation and as a crypto currency generate them as needed. Also, they have made the higher paying jobs the ones they need done so it's easyfor them to hire miners, builders, and etc.

Rizzo said:

Okay, that makes sense, I just needed to know where you were at with us @Legix. Candonallowed the economy to collapse after a bad purchase S6 made and used the situation to sieze economic control by pursuading, or just killing anyone that rejected their place in his economic plan. By all accounts it was evil, but the result is a lack of people to resist him has now made it possible for the Frontier Banking Service to hide the total number of AMs in circulation and as a crypto currency generate them as needed. Also, they have made the higher paying jobs the ones they need done so it's easyfor them to hire miners, builders, and etc.

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Right. I understand the idea they could partially hide/control their currency's inflating value (at least to a degree, since eventually Akemi's burger purchases would show that more burgers are being bought and put a strain on the market to produce, effectively cutting their burger count and hurting the money situation).

But even assuming they could hire more miners and builders, that doesn't change the infrastructure differences nor help much for contributing a practically top-of-the-line battleship with these sort of specs. This is why I pointed to the idea of tuning it down. If this was a smaller, less-capable ship/fell in at the lower tiers, then I don't think there'd be as much problem.

It seems like the main concern has to do with this ship bordering what would be the "peak" of the warships out there. Like this is why I don't want nesting-egg style ships banned. The concepts behind this are cool. It's just that the collective consensus falls under this ship being too big, too capable, and generally too high on USO's list. I'd still rate a colonial Nepleslian world above USO's production capacity, but think they do have enough to make smaller battleships.

As I stated, it can be nice and big but have a lower Tier rating. You can honestly stretch the tiers quite a bit via RP, so making it weaker doesn't seem like you'd have much to lose. It's just a precaution to prevent someone seeing a T15 warship with T15 guns, with the capacity to turn into T14 ships with tons of T14 guns, and immediately leaping to the idea that an USO warship can go toe-to-toe with a Nepleslian or Yamataian battleship.

This isn't to be confused with them being able to in the future. But USO still only has ONE true planet capable of industrial might in a star-based nation and it's still a fledgling. They've not been around that long, either. ICly, it makes little sense for USO to produce a monster like this as-is in my humble opinion.

But the idea is cool and shouldn't be thrown back at the NTSE like it was. This compromise should be reasonable and the NTSE should be able to agree that a weaker tiered representation is fine for SITE balance, so that you guys can run this ship without any OOC hassle for your IC RP balance.

Look, I'm not arguing tech. I'm just fed up with people taking a dump on my work. FMS, no matter what anyone says, is extremely advanced. They possess Kuvexian plans and equipment. FBS is a financial powerhouse. This has been built ICly and IC speaks louder than OOC. I think that's how @Ametheliana put it.

No one is saying it isn't.

Legix said:

This is why I pointed to the idea of tuning it down. If this was a smaller, less-capable ship/fell in at the lower tiers, then I don't think there'd be as much problem.

It seems like the main concern has to do with this ship bordering what would be the "peak" of the warships out there. Like this is why I don't want nesting-egg style ships banned. The concepts behind this are cool. It's just that the collective consensus falls under this ship being too big, too capable, and generally too high on USO's list. I'd still rate a colonial Nepleslian world above USO's production capacity, but think they do have enough to make smaller battleships.

As I stated, it can be nice and big but have a lower Tier rating. You can honestly stretch the tiers quite a bit via RP, so making it weaker doesn't seem like you'd have much to lose. It's just a precaution to prevent someone seeing a T15 warship with T15 guns, with the capacity to turn into T14 ships with tons of T14 guns, and immediately leaping to the idea that an USO warship can go toe-to-toe with a Nepleslian or Yamataian battleship.

This isn't to be confused with them being able to in the future. But USO still only has ONE true planet capable of industrial might in a star-based nation and it's still a fledgling. They've not been around that long, either. ICly, it makes little sense for USO to produce a monster like this as-is in my humble opinion.

But the idea is cool and shouldn't be thrown back at the NTSE like it was. This compromise should be reasonable and the NTSE should be able to agree that a weaker tiered representation is fine for SITE balance, so that you guys can run this ship without any OOC hassle for your IC RP balance

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Legix said:

It seems like the main concern has to do with this ship bordering what would be the "peak" of the warships out there. Like this is why I don't want nesting-egg style ships banned. The concepts behind this are cool. It's just that the collective consensus falls under this ship being too big, too capable, and generally too high on USO's list. I'd still rate a colonial Nepleslian world above USO's production capacity, but think they do have enough to make smaller battleships.

As I stated, it can be nice and big but have a lower Tier rating. You can honestly stretch the tiers quite a bit via RP, so making it weaker doesn't seem like you'd have much to lose. It's just a precaution to prevent someone seeing a T15 warship with T15 guns, with the capacity to turn into T14 ships with tons of T14 guns, and immediately leaping to the idea that an USO warship can go toe-to-toe with a Nepleslian or Yamataian battleship.

This isn't to be confused with them being able to in the future. But USO still only has ONE true planet capable of industrial might in a star-based nation and it's still a fledgling. They've not been around that long, either. ICly, it makes little sense for USO to produce a monster like this as-is in my humble opinion.

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Alex Hart said:

No one is saying it isn't.

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Really?

FrostJaeger said:

You cannot “point to the ArcMark article as an example of how USO has An[sic] absurdly strong economy for its size,” @Zack, because the Arcmark (thanks to being tied to the value of a meal from Akemi’s) has nothing to do with the state of USO’s economy; similarly, you cannot “point to the Alemi’s[sic] RP or the numerous products being bought and sold by USO / S6 as an example of a strong economy,” because the success of a single company does not by any stretches of the imagination mean that the rest of a faction’s economy is doing well - and what transactions are you referring to, anyways? As far as I’m aware, none of the other factions in the setting have placed any large-scale orders for anything produced by S6 and/or USO.

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Hey, there's another one!

Oh boy!

Alex Hart said:

I’m not saying that you can’t build it, all I’m saying is that the USO economy is definitely not good, and that we’ve blown no one away. It only works because of FSC, not because anyone made good choices.

Additionally, I wasn’t trying to twist your words, @Rizzo, I was trying to explain that the economy has been, as I understand it, supplanted by the FSC.

The FSC is the economy, and so the economy isn’t “real”. Things aren’t working because of smart choices, they’re working because of desperate measures.

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Smile Alex, you're on camera!
I think you can start to see the point I'm trying to make.
This started as a TECHNOLOGY SUBMISSION and kept nudging it's way into the RP I've been generating. Thus I say again, FMS will build the ship and FBS will fund it. This ship is FSCorp approved. Now if you'dall like to make this about TECHNOLOGY please, be my guest. I simply insist thatthe conversation notdevolve into what I've already got covered.

Except I foresaw this and gave it a long deadline. In fact I feel like this conversation should happen, if not here, then at least somewhere.

Rizzo said:

Really?


Hey, there's another one!

Oh boy!

Smile Alex, you're on camera!
I think you can start to see the point I'm trying to make.
This started as a TECHNOLOGY SUBMISSION and kept nudging it's way into the RP I've been generating. Thus I say again, FMS will build the ship and FBS will fund it. This ship is FSCorp approved. Now if you'dall like to make this about TECHNOLOGY please, be my guest. I simply insist thatthe conversation notdevolve into what I've already got covered.

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I'm pretty sure you've misread me and seemed to miss that my discussion doesn't have to do with the technology aspect NOR the economic. I said your resource availability wasn't there.

And honestly, your attitude aimed at me is outright silly. Particularly because I DID refer to the technology: I advised you scale it down on tiers. What is with this rabid fetish that people working with USO seem to have on making everything TOP OF THE LINE in the setting if you only care about the RP? Why can't you just make it and RP it as top of the line in your plots?

People are screaming and pointing fingers but no one involved in the submitter's side seems to be willing to compromise at all. How is it that there's still people who are this unwilling to adjust for the sake of their RP? What makes this so worth arguing and throwing tantrums because you're not part of "the big number club"?

Genuinely I'm trying to grasp why, however, that the earliest points of this (ones I even repeated) were ignored when they had to do quite straight-on with the technology aspect. Primarily, the size of this.

Alex Hart said:

One concern I have is the proliferation of really large ships. It's makign it harder and harder to convey a sense of scale if everything everywhere is huge just because it's 'not worth building outside of tier 12-15'. For instance, I've got a giant ship planned to be retrofitted soon, and with these being attempted at, it's going to make it look like 3.5km ships are the norm.

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META_mahn said:

I'm posting my proper math behind the "ship-split is OP" thing.

Alright, we have it now. Let's do science. First, we use it against the Izanagi. We hit the Izanagi once, it goes boom. Look at all the dead Nekos. You monster. Let's now hit the C9. This is where things get interesting since our theoretical weapon hits the C9...and kills it. But it doesn't. Because now there are two Tier 14 ships, both split from the C9's original Tier 15. Already this means the C9 can withstand an attack even the most powerful ship in the setting cannot, and can still be functional. But, I digress. Let's keep cutting, shall we?

We cut both halves of the C9, making 4 Tier 13 ships. We cut, more and more, until we end up with the 30-odd Tier 10s. Now our instant blade of death one-shots each chunk. However, at this point, we have used our weapon 61 times. The C9 has now taken 61 hits from something that one-shots an Izanagi -- and it has survived.

Now let's perform science -- first, to blow up an Izanagi. Disregard the blood on my clothes. We first line up a shot with our ASA, and hit the Izanagi, depleting half its barrier. In two more similar hits, the Izanagi is dead. The Izanagi has tanked a total of three hits. Next we put the C9 in front. Once again, we fire our ASA, this time destroying the C9 in the same three hits. But wait, what's this? A "potentially lethal blow" simply caused the C9 to break apart? And now it's in multiple still-active pieces? Well, we can't just let these six Tier 13 pieces of C9 sit around, can we? So, let's shoot it again...and maybe vaporize half. The other half is fine, so let's drive Sasha around, line her up perfectly, and vaporize the other half. Here, we can see that the C9 has tanked two more hits than the Izanagi could.

But wait! It wasn't the ideal scenario at all! That's right, because we went from the most ideal scenario, to a somewhat idealistic scenario. Because the worst case scenario for a C9 is if it gets hit by three Tier 15 area attacks. This makes it tank the same amount of hits as our Izanagi over there. Completely fine mind you, but the fact this is the worst case scenario for its defense is, well...not good. Perhaps a little...unbalanced.

Edit: In theory, you could even rotate the T13 chunks with shield modules on them to project their T15 shield to protect them from certain death. This lets the C9 tank an additional 4 to perhaps even 12 hits, putting it at being able to tank 6 to 14 more hits than the Izanagi, 3-5.6666 repeating times more hits.

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Legix said:

It seems like the main concern has to do with this ship bordering what would be the "peak" of the warships out there. Like this is why I don't want nesting-egg style ships banned. The concepts behind this are cool. It's just that the collective consensus falls under this ship being too big, too capable, and generally too high on USO's list. I'd still rate a colonial Nepleslian world above USO's production capacity, but think they do have enough to make smaller battleships.

As I stated, it can be nice and big but have a lower Tier rating. You can honestly stretch the tiers quite a bit via RP, so making it weaker doesn't seem like you'd have much to lose. It's just a precaution to prevent someone seeing a T15 warship with T15 guns, with the capacity to turn into T14 ships with tons of T14 guns, and immediately leaping to the idea that an USO warship can go toe-to-toe with a Nepleslian or Yamataian battleship.

But the idea is cool and shouldn't be thrown back at the NTSE like it was. This compromise should be reasonable and the NTSE should be able to agree that a weaker tiered representation is fine for SITE balance, so that you guys can run this ship without any OOC hassle for your IC RP balance.

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What main problem hasn't been made clear enough through repeated mentions of it? The size and tiers of this ARE the main problem people have. Not once did I say in my statements that you don't have the technological capacity (though I will argue you do not have the skill in shipmaking even via your corporation to construct a ship of this scale with someone as lightweight/weak as Durandium Alloy) to construct this. The problem is the tech scale of this is too huge. That has been the number-one problem and probably still is in most people's minds. Why do you NEED to have a Tier 15 warship that can be a "top dog" for a nation that prioritizes RP as much as you both clearly seem to do?

Why not just very easily make the compromise and move on? What do you really have to lose from actually reading and listening to the feedback versus just blindly combating it?

Because again, it involves you staking a claim that FSCorp is not capable of constructing a tier 15. It is just as capable as Origin Industries who builds space stations because that's the type of shipyard they have. They are also just as capable as the Kuvexians since that is where there designs are being reverse engineered from. That was a big event too. Kuvexia is even with Yamatai, thus the quality of FMS products is, as you may guess, very good.

Yeah, it's made a lot simpler, of course there's a vastly different aesthetic, absolutely these ships are dangerous. Why should the IC achievements of FSCorp be called into question OOCly?

Guys, I think we need to put things in perspective here.


Just some quick maths from this week in RP: Elysia is about 3 times more active than Nepleslia.

The USO is 14 times more active than Elysia and Nepleslia combined, and 56 times more active than Nepleslia by itself.

The USO / FSC / S6 / Skyguard / Akemi's / Spacers / 4th Elysian Empire / PsychoPomp all have the best of the best equipment because they've gone out and earned it in RP. Uso's peer group alone has more capability than Nepleslia as a whole because its stocked with the most exceptional people in the setting. There are more Elysians and Nepleslians showing up in USO than in those faction plots combined.

The feedback I'm getting on the ship here doesn't sound like feedback at all, it sounds like sour grapes.

The question isn't really 'Why should Uso have stuff just as good as anyone else's stuff'. The answer to that is pretty obvious: We have a shit ton of RP, and a shit ton of talented people. The question really should be 'Why is Nepleslia still a major faction?' and 'how is Elysia so over-represented in the NTSE?'

Zack said:

'how is Elysia so over-represented in the NTSE?'

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This isn't a good thing, just FYI. We can't approve our own submissions. I even stay away from Galactic Horizon subs because we may have future partnership deals. It's especially bad when we're on the cusp of faction revival if only Frost would make some articles

If you want your power so bad, why don't you have it already?

Maybe because we're too busy RPing?

We've pointed out repeatedly that the Elysian NTSE mods don't seem to review any submissions. I just went through the NTSE and flagged a bunch today to make my point. NTSE rot has gotten kinda crazy with things going for weeks without a post even after mods have been tagged. That's kinda nuts. NTSE mods aren't using the checklist for the vast majority of submissions. NTSE mods can't even give a straight answer about the rules, requirements, or expectations. For example right here I keep getting told things are 'too powerful' but there aren't any guidelines for what is acceptable and NTSE mods can't seem to articulate why something is acceptable or why something isn't acceptable.

Worse yet, we have new players who show up, talk to the NTSE mods for a few minutes, and immediately want to leave the site. It is crazy that the NTSE has this amount of submission rot when potential players don't want to use the NTSE.

It isn't like the USO crew would be bad at it either. We are super active, super popular, low drama, we have some of the most in depth wiki articles of any faction, have tons of art, and the things we do take over work fantastically well.

Zack said:

Guys, I think we need to put things in perspective here.


Just some quick maths from this week in RP: Elysia is about 3 times more active than Nepleslia.

The USO is 14 times more active than Elysia and Nepleslia combined, and 56 times more active than Nepleslia by itself.

The USO / FSC / S6 / Skyguard / Akemi's / Spacers / 4th Elysian Empire / PsychoPomp all have the best of the best equipment because they've gone out and earned it in RP. Uso's peer group alone has more capability than Nepleslia as a whole because its stocked with the most exceptional people in the setting. There are more Elysians and Nepleslians showing up in USO than in those faction plots combined.

The feedback I'm getting on the ship here doesn't sound like feedback at all, it sounds like sour grapes.

The question isn't really 'Why should Uso have stuff just as good as anyone else's stuff'. The answer to that is pretty obvious: We have a shit ton of RP, and a shit ton of talented people. The question really should be 'Why is Nepleslia still a major faction?' and 'how is Elysia so over-represented in the NTSE?'

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You mean to tell me Nepleslians, a group intended to be compatible to show up anywhere, is in your plot?

First of all: quantity of RP doesn't trump quality. Considering the ringer Nepleslia has been through and that it's recovering, I'd appreciate if your inflated and subjective number gaming stopped. I'm glad USO is active, but the best things? No. The MOST things? Definitely.

You know what I hear as the norm? Most players who join USO end up regretting it down the line or just leaving after their "contributions" get overwritten. For all the people scared of the NTSE, a few have even gone on to work with other factions.

You want to make it about USO and how "successful" you are when it had nothing to do with it. But the reality is that your "constant RPing" is because of how small the USO circle REALLY is. And every time someone comes at your submissions, you cry back on the popularity and activity of a group that has pretty similar growth currently to Nepleslia (yeah, you know, that big bad thing you keep hating on and railing against because you've got some personal boner for the faction you don't run).

You're clearly not too busy RPing because you always end up lashing out at Frost and turning your submissions that have any trouble at all into a giant dick-waving contest where you can try to brag about your faction. Meanwhile, I am more and more commonly dealing and working with players who you end up tossing to the side for either opposing you or wanting you to get more realistic with your IC pacing (all that quantity sacrifices quality quite well, I think).

I'm sure I won't hear the end about how Nepleslia is "inactive", but I also know I won't hear the end about how USO is great while seemingly hemorrhaging players and leaving countless submissions abandoned mere months after approval. And honestly, I wouldn't mind if you specifically were barred from the NTSE for this sort of behavior. Every time you come to the NTSE, Zack, you make it a chore unless whoever the NTSE moderator is handholds you straight through approval. And I mean straight through, no questions and at the highest pace possible. All you do is whine and want a bigger excuse to try and explain away any feedback.

I won't even talk about the fact that most Nepleslian plots are 18+ and, as a result, hidden from public/new members. I shouldn't have to explain why the faction isn't the most active after changing leadership multiple times in the last year with constant leveraged attacks made against it by both members present and past. But what's annoying more than anything is your constant push to de-platform people because you can spam a bunch of single-paragraph posts faster than everyone else on the site.

The idea of you anywhere near the NTSE quite bluntly doesn't make sense because you're oblivious to how the rest of the site works. I'm sure we're going to hear in a week from now how you're keeping a faction all your GMs run above the peak of Nepleslia, where the largest plot is run by the FM who has a kid to take care of.

I'm sure you'll never shut up about any of it, so long as you think it's perfect material to try and push your approvals and push to be given staff powers. But honestly, I'm sick of it and this is precisely why myself and various others groan every time we see a new submission from you. NTSE or not, we all know how we're about to hear ALL about USO because it has to be ALL about USO every time you speak despite the fact that USO is probably one of the most isolated factions on SARP. After the departure of so many others, we still have to look forward to the most absurdly combative members of the site when it comes to submissions. Someone who preaches how they love RP but can't compromise ever because they couldn't care less about RP and just want to stroke their ego with "the next strongest X" on SARP.