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Rejected Submission C9 'Pine Class Optionally Manned Warship'

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Zack

Zack

Inactive Member
Submission URL
https://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c9
Submission Type: Starship
Template Used: Starship
Submission WIP URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c9
Submission Destination URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=faction:uso:c9

Faction: USO
FM Approved Yet? Yes
Faction requires art? Yes

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? Yes
In addition to the articles up for approval elsewhere as part of the: C8: https://stararmy.com/roleplay-forum/index.php?threads/c8.62053/ and U7 : https://stararmy.com/roleplay-forum/index.php?threads/u7b-command-craft.62173/ There are:
- https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c4_interstellar_jet
- https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:sutafaia_defense_system
- https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c9shivaturret
- https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c9verticallaunchcell

Contains New art? Yes
Previously Submitted? No

Notes: Hi Ame
 
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The cited rule says in-universe restrictions can't be used to justify overpowered tech.
Zack said:
The C9 is intended to be more of a one-off for Section 6 anyways
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This tells us that Zack isn't seeking an in-universe restriction to justify overpowered tech. He is stating that, in-universe, it is intended to be a single-ship class regardless of its power.

This C9 doesn't even seem that overpowered, anyway. It's a gigantic space radiator attached to a chunk of hollowed out, planet-cracked iron. An outdated Nozomi-class Scout could clearly one shot this thing.

C9 said:
it is largely expendable and can be put in risky situations to maximize the use of those systems.
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It looks like Zack literally wants to blow it up in-universe at the first dramatic opportunity. It does not look like Zack wants to go subjugate the rest of the SARPiverse — or even a small part of it under the care of minor FM — with this ship.

Nobody needs to address my points. Just some drive-by input from a fellow roleplayer.
 
As far as I can tell from reading the article, there's absolutely no indication that this is intended, in universe to be a one off. Zack may only plan to make one, but as it stands that's only a promise of restricted use, because as he claims, he can make a hundred of them easily.

Additionally, the wording of the article suggests to me that there is intended to be more than one of them.

  • In the about the ship section, it is repeatedly described not as a ship, but as a "Design" and as the "Pine class"

  • It is described as being used to defend the Section 6 carriers, of which there are two that I know of at the moment. This would require at least two C9 class vessels to accomplish.

  • This time in the History section, it is again described as a class of ship, not a single ship.
All of this leads me to believe that the original plan was to have a goodly amount of these around, and that Zack said it would be a one off as promise that falls in line with "promising in universe restrictions on use or availability."
 
Because he didn’t just simply say “sure let’s build one for now.” He said “sure, but I could build a hundred if I want,” essentially.
 
I never claimed that he was wrong to build one Ame, but it is a "Promise of an in universe restriction on availability/use"
 
META_mahn said:
The fact it’s being allowed is quite something especially when Yamatai doesn’t allow its own suzerainties to build dreadnoughts (and yet an enemy faction is).
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I'm sorry, is anyone else concerned that a tech moderator is deciding who is and isn't an enemy faction of Yamatai? Or maybe it's jealousy, since it is a comparison of two totally different governments. Hmmm, that does give me the impression that there might be a bit of hypocrisy present, let's check the rules!
FrostJaeger said:
You are remembering correctly, @Alex Hart.

View attachment 15459
Click to expand...
Ah yes, here it is, rule 4, the most over quoted rule in the book!
So Zack isn't permitted to point to older submissionsfor comparison without this picture popping up all over the place, however the moderator can compare the entire USO to an older submission(Elysian Suzerainty)? Seems dangerously close to a moderator breaking rule 4.a.

But of course Wes just came and made a compromise to appease both the submitter and the moderator, who seems to have different military buildup guidelines than the rest of the community has. I can't help but wonder why after comparing apples and oranges, one of which he is a FM for, and having the big boss make a decision that it is not being accepted. Could it be that there is a bias involved?

I would certainly hope that this isn't the case, seeing as we are all reasonable people looking to promote unique stories that appeal to individual members of the community rather than some group of angry nerds upset about imaginary space fleets. If the concept of Elysia being denied huge ship production bothers you might I suggest using IC RP events to change that situation rather than force the IC rules placed on Elysia on the USO OOCly?
 
Zack said:
We should be able to build 100 of these under the current guidelines.

If you want to change the guidelines then sure, but I would expect them to be fair and not a 'Lets change this just for USO' guideline change.

Of course if you do that, you'd have a hard time coming up with a definition for established faction that would allow USO to build only one capital ship, that doesn't also restrict every other faction on the site to 1 or less capital ships.

USO has one of the most developed planet articles on the site, a brand-new-high-tech space factory, a super-tech mega-factory on the surface, multiple large resourcing operations with various levels of actual RP behind them. Wazu by himself would be justification enough to be able to build a fleet of these, but the cast of USO is a who's who of SARP's best tech geniuses, Spies, and business-cats. This is even before we consider just what the C9 is: A drone built out of one huge hunk of harvested material and filled with a bunch of pre-built components. No rugs, furniture, or wardroom kitchens to worry about. Realistically, the C9 would be far cheaper to produce than the Sharie but that doesn't factor into the MBL.

The C9 is intended to be more of a one-off for Section 6 anyways so a 1 limit isn't a huge deal but the USO is going to be building a lot of T15 starships. Though on a side note, I would also like to fix the MBL as part of DRv4. The current rules make T12 and T15 starships the only starships you should be building and I'd rather see factions just have a 'maximum tiers of ships' amount rather than a limit of 150 small ships and 100 big ships... but that might be for another day.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. I withdraw my proposed request that you limit this to one ship, as it would be unfair to your faction on an OOC basis. So basically although you said you'd only build one (for now) I'm leaving it open for you to build additional ones in the future if it makes sense in the RP, within the MBL limits.
 
Rizzo said:
I'm sorry, is anyone else concerned that a tech moderator is deciding who is and isn't an enemy faction of Yamatai? Or maybe it's jealousy, since it is a comparison of two totally different governments. Hmmm, that does give me the impression that there might be a bit of hypocrisy present, let's check the rules!
Click to expand...

I’m sorry, is anyone else concerned that a tech moderator is being extraordinarily disrespectful to one of his peers?

Rizzo said:
Ah yes, here it is, rule 4, the most over quoted rule in the book!
Click to expand...

It doesn’t matter how often a rule is quoted, @Rizzo - the rules are the rules.

Rizzo said:
So Zack isn't permitted to point to older submissionsfor comparison without this picture popping up all over the place, however the moderator can compare the entire USO to an older submission(Elysian Suzerainty)?
Click to expand...

That’s correct.

Rizzo said:
Seems dangerously close to a moderator breaking rule 4.a.
Click to expand...

Rule 4a does not apply to moderators, Rizzo - it only applies to submitters.

Rizzo said:
But of course Wes just came and made a compromise to appease both the submitter and the moderator, who seems to have different military buildup guidelines than the rest of the community has.
Click to expand...

Where did @META_mahn state that he has “different military buildup guidelines than the rest of the community,” Rizzo?

Rizzo said:
Could it be that there is a bias involved?
Click to expand...

The same question could be asked of you, Rizzo - could it be that you’re being extremely biased in favor of the C9?

Rizzo said:
If the concept of Elysia being denied huge ship production bothers you might I suggest using IC RP events to change that situation rather than force the IC rules placed on Elysia on the USO OOCly?
Click to expand...

Might I suggest reading Meta’s post before making personal attacks, Rizzo? As the FM of Elysia, I can tell you right now that Elysia is not being denied “huge ship production”; in fact, Elysia - unlike USO - actually has the economic base to construct said “huge ships.”
 
That about sums it up though doesn’t it? Elysians don’t want this approved because they want their smaller faction to have better stuff.

It’s ok to be the little guy sometimes, but USO is more than ten times the size of the other factions combined not counting Yamatai. It is kinda unrealistic for USO to stay small.
 
Please keep discussion limited to this ship, and not the USO faction in general. I've asked once before, and I won't ask again.
 
I also wouldn’t say Elysia has the economic or political power (currently) to construct a dreadnought. I don’t think I could approve a dreadnought even for my own faction.
 
Alright, can another mod take this on then since Meta looks like he is stepping down?
 
There is nothing wrong with requesting a different reviewer. A submitter has to be able to trust the moderator giving the review.
 
Meta does seem focused on the USO rather than on the submission. The submission is fine. I think frost pretty much summed the objects seemed to be more based in faction politics than anything objectionable.
 
So Zack can make one of these, he can make 100, but can it pass the checklist?

Is there anything technical that needs changing?

I notice, Zack, that your weapons are not in the correct format and there's no text after the header Statistics and Performance.
 
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