Rejected Submission C9 'Pine Class Optionally Manned Warship'

Hey look a ship named after me. O_O I didn't adopt a ship did I? Izzy would kill me.

@META_mahn what changes does Zack need to do to get this approved?

First we have the paper-thin dreadnought issue. If super thin components of a ship count as part of their DR that could open a can of worms that I’m not very keen on opening. Yamatai’s Sharie is smaller due to its superior material science.

Ship division is also an issue. Ideally I’d like to see it on a much smaller ship first and see how it plays out.

Wes has repeatedly said the ship division thing is a non issue.

Thin ships also exist in the setting, and the main hulls of most Yamatain ships are similar in thickness to the C9 at scale (just the C9 is side to side thin, while Yamataian ships tend to be up and down thin)

Is there an actual thing holding up approval here?

I think the issue is the radiator, which is possibly too fragile and light to count towards ship mass and tier.

Also, what about my concern here "One concern I have is the proliferation of really large ships. It's makign it harder and harder to convey a sense of scale if everything everywhere is huge just because it's 'not worth building outside of tier 12-15'. For instance, I've got a giant ship planned to be retrofitted soon, and with these being attempted at, it's going to make it look like 3.5km ships are the norm."


I legitimately am concerned about this, as it makes my job harder. I don't want to have to make my stuff bigger just to seem big because someone decided to make all of their stuff bigger first.

Edit: You liking my post doesn't exactly make me look more credible in Zack's eyes Meta & Frost.

There are indeed a couple of “thing{s} actually holding up approval,” @Zack.

Firstly, where has Wes said that “the ship division thing is a non issue[sic]?” I searched both this thread and the one for the C8, but wasn’t able to find anything by Wes that supports your claim.

Secondly, it doesn’t matter if other “thin ships also exist in the setting,” nor does it matter if “the main hulls of most Yamatain ships are similar in thickness to the C9 at scale”; according to General 4a of the Submission Rules, “it is not a valid argument to justify overpowered or questionable abilities on your submission by pointing to an older submission, especially of a different faction” - and besides, Fred said here that a ship’s tier is based upon the “biggest dimensions of what counts,” not the biggest dimensions overall.

And now the C8 and the U7b are both approved.

Also, I did some thinking on the USO economic system. It's hardly perfect. In fact, it's an ideal system...that kind of collapses once you apply economic principles.

The government owns the banks, and the banks are the ones that create currency. We can establish this. We can also confirm the fact that the amount of money is finite, as in, every ArcMark is backed by some amount of resource. No inflation, therefore, can occur. Right? Wrong.

The answer why it's wrong is banks. Whenever you store money in a bank, the bank now has your money. It gives out that money in the form of loans. This artificially creates money, which creates inflation...which devalues your currency. Oops!

So, let's restrict loans. Oh, but that can't happen either. Because if you restrict loans, you restrict business development, restricting your economy's potential to grow. So you find it hard to put down that loan for building your gigantic battleship, since then you don't collect money from the populous.

So now what? Kill the banks? Now everyone's just keeping their stacks of cash to themselves. Nothing happens, except for a very occasional trade for food. Remember that the people of 188604, before they were a civilization, were people on a desert planet scrounging for food. They can certainly live off of barely anything, being self-sufficient above all else.

Eventually, you'll have to give into one of our modern-day economic systems. It'll just happen. At best the USO financial system is a temporary measure to get yourself back on your feet, and I don't think funding a battleship is a smart way to get back up.

Are you really still stuck on this? A Yamataian spy trained to collapse governments reversed the principles to create a pseudo form of the Yamataian economy. Done. This is hard Canon, built in character. Why do you keep returning to this subject? Do you have more information on the Uso economy then the person who made it?

Let's keep discussion about the ship and not about USO in general.

Someone asked if USO can build this. How about we say that for now they can build just the first one (if/when approved), due to it probably being fabulously expensive, and in the future Zack and I can talk about additional ones when the faction's more established.

What do you think, Zack?

I don’t think a dreadnought is a light matter for any faction. The fact it’s being allowed is quite something especially when Yamatai doesn’t allow its own suzerainties to build dreadnoughts (and yet an enemy faction is)

Realistically he’ll only ever produce one, if he devotes everything to making a C9.

We should be able to build 100 of these under the current guidelines.

If you want to change the guidelines then sure, but I would expect them to be fair and not a 'Lets change this just for USO' guideline change.

Of course if you do that, you'd have a hard time coming up with a definition for established faction that would allow USO to build only one capital ship, that doesn't also restrict every other faction on the site to 1 or less capital ships.

USO has one of the most developed planet articles on the site, a brand-new-high-tech space factory, a super-tech mega-factory on the surface, multiple large resourcing operations with various levels of actual RP behind them. Wazu by himself would be justification enough to be able to build a fleet of these, but the cast of USO is a who's who of SARP's best tech geniuses, Spies, and business-cats. This is even before we consider just what the C9 is: A drone built out of one huge hunk of harvested material and filled with a bunch of pre-built components. No rugs, furniture, or wardroom kitchens to worry about. Realistically, the C9 would be far cheaper to produce than the Sharie but that doesn't factor into the MBL.

The C9 is intended to be more of a one-off for Section 6 anyways so a 1 limit isn't a huge deal but the USO is going to be building a lot of T15 starships. Though on a side note, I would also like to fix the MBL as part of DRv4. The current rules make T12 and T15 starships the only starships you should be building and I'd rather see factions just have a 'maximum tiers of ships' amount rather than a limit of 150 small ships and 100 big ships... but that might be for another day.

If I remember correctly you're not allowed to promise in universe restrictions on use and expect for it to have any effect on your submission.

You are remembering correctly, @Alex Hart.

I'm not promising any in-universe restrictions.

I'm saying I only plan to build one, but we could build at least 100 if we wanted.

You're not promising an in universe restriction on availiblity, you're providing one on use. Which is still against the rules.