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Corporation Buildup Limits / Shipyard Usage

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Ethereal

Well-Known Member
I was wondering what limitations there are on independent organisations building up fleets as it seems this is a big issue of late with a lot of different answers flying around.

Is it a case of "if you have the money, you can buy unlimited" like some people suggest, is there a limit based on what territory you may control or governments you are assisted by? Obviously there's a hard cap of your employees - you can only busy as many ships as you can fill with people.

Secondarily, obviously shipyards corporations control can be used to make ships they themselves have designed. How does one procure plans for other ships? If the ships are on the open market, can they be reverse-engineered after a few years?
 

raz

SAINT Director
Inactive Member
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Corporations are chartered within specific factions, and thus must be approved by that's faction's FM in the first place. Emrys and Geshrinari are Yamataian companies just as Zen and NAM are Nepleslian. If the FM has a problem with what your corporation is doing in their territory then the decision to falls to them or the Setting Manager. If your corporation has enough ships to be tracked by the military buildup limitations guide then it should probably at least be an NPC faction (or player faction like Origin used to be).

All of this information is derived from how corporations interact with their host faction and what the military buildup limitations guide says.

You can procure plans for ships by:
  1. Having a character who works for your company design the ship. I have seen both full-blown player characters and single-mention names in tech history fulfill the designer role in my time here.
  2. License existing designs by having a roleplay or sending an IC message to the owner.
  3. Someone gives your company the designs for free.
  4. Reverse-engineer (or plainly steal), I guess?
I can't think of many cases where people actually reverse engineer things in SARP, though. It's definitely been talked about before but usually doesn't happen because doing so is legitimately no less involved than having a character develop something organically (plus no added stress when the FM you're crossing gets angry).
 

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
Excellent, thank you for the information.

What if your company spans across multiple factions and territories with their production capabilities? Would it be up to the FM you're producing the ships in to tell you what's too much in that location? If not is there any way to move your chartered faction, like how companies move HQs?
 
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Not much to say for this one, in all honesty - but to minimize the inevitable drama that this is going to create:

If you don't have constructive criticism and/or feedback to offer, then do NOT post in this thread.
 

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
I agree that corporations need to have some sort of guidelines and in this article as a concept. I haven't had time to give it a good looking over but corporations seem to be a point of contention in SARP and it's long overdue we had limits on them. We don't want companies toppling nations and imposing their own regime by pulling numbers out their arse, if you can excuse my language. For example, I have had to self-nerf my company in the past because these limitations didn't exist at the time and it was the only way to give myself limitations, if self-imposed and self-dictated.
 

paladinrpg

Well-Known Member
I'm on board with the idea of establishing a formal rule on corporate fleets, because this issue has come up way too many times in the past and the rulings have been inconsistent. The definition of a ship that is civilian vs. military use is very fuzzy, and especially with the idea of PMC's is only gets moreso.
 

Syaoran

Retired Staff
I'm not NTSE or anything but I think somehting like this should undergo a setting wide discussion before it gets turned into some article that has one person's input to judge how we do our site. Not only that but these rules are somewhat arbitrary in the first place as almost no cooperation actually has an 'active military presence' in the first place. Also one of the reasons listed for use is to prevent factions from using corps to bypass military build up rules, which Frostjeager himself wrote the revisions for. These rules stipulate that only -military- and -national defense- related ships are restricted by it. Which rather clearly allows for unlimited non military ships. However again, most corporations do not have a significant military presence in the first place. So now we're limiting their normal ships as well and undercutting our own military build up rules.
 

Primitive Polygon

Well-Known Member
Hum... I support this in theory, but I don't know about time alone being the limiting factor of their build-up. The number of players being relevant for factions to grow inspires people to interconnect with others much better. As an easy medium, I suppose some kind of relationship between ground bases might make sense?... Then you at least have to talk to FMs so you can build more on their planets, and thus be forced to make deals, e.t.c.

I suppose it could also do with far more mentions of civilian class ships on the maximum limit table, such as mobile shipyards, colony ships and cargo vessels...

Other than that, it's a good article and covers all the basic issues.
 

Arieg

DEFCON Everybody Dies
Inactive Member
When it comes to the military build up limitation as long as the player count to star system rule is not enforced the entire system is pointless and honestly redundant since PVP is something which cannot happen without both FMs signing off on it willingly. So at this point in SARP's life this entire excercise is kinda moot and more tools to turn the NTSE into this,

awww_trbimg_com_img_59d53382_turbine_ct_protest_st_louis_highway_20171004_.jpg

Instead of this,

apastorunlikely.files.wordpress.com_2017_08_toll.jpg
 

Syaoran

Retired Staff
Also as the 'difference between civilian and military ships' was brought up. That has become a problem because people have tried to distinguish things based on the wrong thing. The only difference between a civilian and a military ship in terms of production is which -market- it's available at. Now as for if we're talking in battle, the military build up rules are actually pretty clear on that. And again Frostjeager wrote the revision so I'm surprised he's having trouble with this. Corporate and civilian ships -not- involved with national defense do not get limited. That means however if they -are- involved with it, no matter who owns it, it counts for that military build up limit. It's actually very easy to identify what is a 'military' ship and what isn't. And as long as we don't start having corporate wars in a literal sense, there's no reason to limit the network of ships a corporation has other than for common sense reasons.
 

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
It is pretty hilarious that the loophole exists that you could require corporations in your territory to maintain a private fleet and then use your government mandate to immediately cease and nationalise those vessels, entirely bypassing the buildup limits.

As for corporate wars, we've almost got one between FSC and IIS right now, god knows where they'll go lol since I don't own a military fleet out of principle.

Some good input here.
 

Syaoran

Retired Staff
It is pretty hilarious that the loophole exists that you could require corporations in your territory to maintain a private fleet and then use your government mandate to immediately cease and nationalise those vessels, entirely bypassing the buildup limits.
Except that doesn't bypass the build up limitations at all. Because build up limitations are based on the current -use- of the ships not who made it or such, as I just explained in the post right above your's. If it's a corporate ship being used for national defense, it still counts for military build up.
 

Acewing13

Paradox Addict
Inactive Member
"Corporations over the limit cannot perform any in-character transactions until the excess ships have been scrapped."

Personally I don't see the point in limiting any and all RP because of a ship limit. Maybe restrict them from doing anything with their ships until they get to the specified limit, but at the end of the day, I think Syaoran is right. There's no point in restricting ships unless they are used in war, since that's the only point at which it matters. And its not a loophole, since you could say that they fit under the whole 'mothball' category.
 

Ethereal

Well-Known Member
Except that doesn't bypass the build up limitations at all. Because build up limitations are based on the current -use- of the ships not who made it or such, as I just explained in the post right above your's. If it's a corporate ship being used for national defense, it still counts for military build up.

You're saying ICly we're removing sovereign rights of nations based on OOC articles? I must not be getting that right, since all nations IRL and otherwise have the right to cease property. Sorry if I'm not following. Too much burying my head in law books lol ><
 

Syaoran

Retired Staff
You're saying ICly we're removing sovereign rights of nations based on OOC articles? I must not be getting that right, since all nations IRL and otherwise have the right to cease property. Sorry if I'm not following.
We're not removing sovereign rights. We're placing a 'magical OOC barrier up. We're not blocking their right to cease property. What's happening is a limitation on what can be used as their war force. They can cease a billion ships if they wanted to. But they can only use as many as the build up guidelines state as possible for their war force. That's how the rule works. Yamatai for instance can make as many ships as they want. Nothing stops them from doing that. However they're OOCly limited in how many can be ready for war or used in national defense(even if not ready for war) at any given moment.
 

Primitive Polygon

Well-Known Member
Hum... I do think there is also something that's being missed about these not being professional military forces, too...

Like, if these are supposed to be security forces, and not straight up invasion forces, could they really be relied upon to attack others in the same way a hardened government military could?... And even if the relevant government was totally okay with hosting a bunch of well armed fearless psychos, doesn't that also imply that corporate corruption would be rife?...
 

Syaoran

Retired Staff
Hum... I do think there is also something that's being missed about these not being professional military forces, too...

Like, if these are supposed to be security forces, and not straight up invasion forces, could they really be relied upon to attack others in the same way a hardened government military could?... And even if the relevant government was totally okay with hosting a bunch of well armed fearless psychos, doesn't that also imply that corporate corruption would be rife?...
That's something that should be talked about in those military build up rules themselves. But that technically gives even less reason to have rules on cooperate build up as that would effectively make corporate company owned ships 'less effective' than military owned ones and would result in new rules about how many of those can be used as well.

Either way though it ends up with these rules not actually being needed.
 

Primitive Polygon

Well-Known Member
I do concede it's a matter of RP quality. Like, people really should be RPing their company and not treating them as mindless automatons, even if they are a literally mindless automatons/robots. But specific equipment and all that could really be handled by in-character government interactions.

Maybe they could simply use the normal faction rules, except instead of planets, they have a number of sanctioned facilities on other factions planets; And how many a Faction Manager is comfortable tolerating on one of their planets is up to their discretion.

Loads of cooperate facilities = More support if you get invaded by an enemy, but a higher risk of corporations ignoring your laws if there isn't an immediate threat.
 

Rizzo

Inactive Member
Why do we need this system now? Things seem to be just fine as they are. Is this causing problems somewhere?
 
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