Create Limitations for New Guys

[Zakalwe]

I'm the only one in NovaCorp. What does that mean?

Unless you include Rob. Who isn't around much/at all.

 

[Yangfan]

Well, I have NPCs in NovaCorp (or did you forget? ), and Jake is running a plot at NovaCorp right now, so I would hardly say that you're the only one "in" NovaCorp.

I think getting another player to RP with you in order to create a corporation is a more than reasonable requirement. Notice that Wes didn't say "joint-ownership". You just need another player investing some time in your corp.

I like Jesse/Leutre's idea. Make people stick around for a period of time before approving their species submissions. A moratorium on new species submissions would also be acceptable to me.

 

[renako]

Actually, I don't think there's even a need for anymore race expansion. Most of SARP's system are already covered unless you expand the current maps.

Limitation is good for newbies like me, since even after a week, I am still trying to grasp the tech point and most of the war events -_-

There is only one thing which I do not agree with Wes's suggestion number 5 on NPC. Players should be able to make NPC, maybe basic NPC's like family or non-importence people like Merais's Doctor should be allowed. For those high ranking kind, maybe those can be rejected until newbies stay longer ^^;;

PS: I be done with grammar in my profile soon, check later please >_>;

 

[Doshii Jun]

Ah. Renako makes a good point.

I don't think Wes is considering "powerless NPCs" in this instance. If you want to NPC your character's family for an SP, or a man on the street or a waitress or anything that's essentially "powerless," no one's going to complain. Just keep it contained, y'know?

 

[FM]

However, I should point out, not every NPC is powerless; not by a longshot. For example, the Senate consists of NPCs, some of whom are Star Army personnel and all of whom wield significant power. There's also the sprites on the various SA ships, NPCed enemy soldiers, important corporate personnel, former PCs who have been 'downgraded', etc.
Essentially, most NPCs are people who wield some neccecary skill or role, but who aren't as important to the plot and are somewhat expendable.

The major differences between a PC and an NPC in this setting: a PC can do more (usually) than an NPC, an NPC can (usually) be controlled by more than one player, NPCs don't have the same level of 'plot armor' as PCs do, and NPCs can be hijacked by a GM at any time and the creator can't do anything about it.

At least, that's my experience. I might get yelled at, but that's the way it goes.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I dunno about the hijacking, but the rest of it's accurate. Again "powerless NPCs" are characters who exist around a certain PC purely for character purposes.

 

[Wes]

PCs are Player characters; One role-player controls their actions. They live within the setting.

NPCs are Non-Player Characters; they're controllable by GMs (and occasionally, trusted players running their own settings or trusted players helping the GM out) and are part of the setting.

 

[Cora]

On New races/technology.

You aren't exactly required to approve them all Wes.

Making people happy is one thing, but intentionally diluting your own Canon with meaningless attachments, like most of the races that were approved then left by the wayside, aswell as 95% of the player made technology, seeing how none of it's being used.

I mean for godsake, you should know this! You're trying to run an interconnected Central story, and you're the one making that impossible.

 

[Wes]

I like new planets and races, Chris. I just don't like how people tend to make submissions and then not follow up on them with RP.

 

[Cora]

Well the most logical problem is the fact most people have already made a character for the YSE, or, (on rarer occasions) other factions. That, and most other players shy away from playing the new thing, because there's the odd chance a Plotship may come about and threaten them with utter annilation.

But, I think the major problem with the other races, aside from the now impossibility of them being integrated into the Imperial army so they can be used, is that they're ignored by GMs due to them being a footnote made by a non-GM.

 

[Fred]

But, I think the major problem with the other races, aside from the now impossibility of them being integrated into the Imperial army so they can be used, is that they're ignored by GMs due to them being a footnote made by a non-GM.

Which means... what exactly?

 

[AoK]

Alright, time for me to step back into the arena of "living"

I have read up to this point, and for some strange reason, my usual 'paranoia spidey sense' isn't tingling. This can mean one of two things, one being that my heart surgury cured it, or two, this is a really good idea as a whole.

The one thing that I do have to ask, is what happens to the races that are on the fringes of being 'needed'. I bring up the Kohanians as a 'for instance'. They are one of those 'given up on' races, but they are still there, on their planet, kickin' it old school style.

Does that mean that we are going to need to wipe them out of existance, or, if I can get some players, and a bit of foundation, are they still salvagable? If you want me to just bow them out, and have them be a background just let me know. But, on the other hand, if I still am allowed to go forward with them, and maybe just have them be one of those "Small plotship mission" races, I will continue to work on how to bring that about, and the story that I am working on for that.

Anyway, just my thoughts, (however disjointed they may be).

 

[Chigusa]

I think I agree with most of it, however I do think that new players should be allowed to submit species and corporations. I think that contribution is really important, and since I'm pretty new myself, it'd suck if I couldn't contribute! D:

Bleh, besides, anything that you don't like, you don't have to approve, right?

 

[Fred]

I'm not too clear on what the issue about the Fenyarr (sorry, this must be the first time I write that...) or Kohanians is since it was mostly before my time. ICly, I remember the joint SA/NDI contact with them had disatrous repercussions... though how that went exactly is beyond my knowledge.

Later, there was this resurgence from those anthropomorphic creatures in the Nozomi plotship (which plot was never fully posted in archives, so knowledge here is limited again) in relation to the 'Shadow' character.

Then, there was the appearance of the Chris-played Nei in the Sakura's first and second missions.

So, in-character details aren't exactly plentiful. What I think I gathered though is that the main reason why the Kohanians weren't continued to being played (such as Nei) was because there was an argument over their control over magic. It seemed to be a case of "I'm not happy with the rules in this house, so, I'm taking my toys and going away".

There is no magic in the SARP. Even the nodal 'equivalency' isn't done anymore. What strong psionics there were are being phased out. If you're willing to make the Kohanians be a magic-devoid race... I don't really see what would be the problem: after all, it seems you were the one whom wanted them out of circulation.

However, when talking about them being left in the background, there is the matter of these Kohanians being a low-tech race which don't really have an interest in the stars. Seeing that the major focus of this forum is on star-spanning conflicts involving fleets of ships over low-tech inhabited planets... I think it is understandable that races like the Kohanians and the Phodians don't have all that much spotlight on them (though the later part might be because our GM of Shadows is lurking more and posting less! ^_^; ).

I think it's best to examine the viability of the Kohanians as a playable character race and then see if a player base can be gathered around it. Personally, I think - after having read about them - that they make better NPCs... but then, what do I know? *shrugs*

 

[AoK]

Since I suck at quoting, Kotori, I will just answer the part of your post that had the assumption, (partly accurate as you will see), and the questions.

Your research is correct, in that there is little to no info on what happened. Suffice it to say that after the YSA/NDI debauchle (I'm spelling it that way, even if it's wrong), there was an outcry from some of the veteran players in the line of "I told you so, he's too new to run a plot, look how he ruined the RP". When that started to happen, I got very discouraged about my creative abilities, and 'went into hiding'.

A little while later, I was told that the reason I failed, was because of lack of planning EVERYTHING out before letting the race be seen, kinda a situation where I let the experiment out of the lab before it was truely tested. So with this knowledge, I wrote out what I felt was missing, and tried again.

This time, however, I had a good antagonist, a character that people would love to hate, because he profitted off of making others miserable. Plus, he had a dream to be a god, which I thought was a good way of making the people who didn't already hate him, well, hate him. With this character, I again tried to bring my race out to the people, and this time, I got approval from Wes to have magic be allowed, but ONLY on Fenyar. I should have probably taken this deal, but I didn't think it would be fair, or right, since the Fenyaro would be leaving the planet to join the Star Army, and if they didn't have the abilities they had been trained in on the planet, they would be at a great disadvantage.

So I pestered Wes some more, and finally got the okay that magic could be used by the Fenyaro, so long as I kept and eye on it, and made sure that it was not abused.

Well, things were going well, and I got a few very smart and talented players to start playing the Fenyaro, and helping me to develop their magic system, which we attributed to what we called The Gate System. Pretty much it could be explained as specialized training to get specific results, like the most pain, or healing by chi sort of things.

While we were working on this, I guess some people were going to Wes and complaining that magic shouldn't be in with the tech, and Wes was more swayed by their arguements. I say this, because even though Wes said that he trusted me to take care of any problems that came up with the magic being used among the tech, when a misunderstanding of how a player wrote out their post of a Fenyaro using their abilities, Wes made the decision to cut all magic out of the RP without letting me handle it.

The decision was made that no more magic would be allowed, outside of PANTHEON created 'illusions'. And when that was done, I talked with Wes again, trying to explain that the Fenyaro really aren't anything without the magic, as that was what I had created them around. So that sort of answers the question about if I would be alright with them being magic devoid. Without the magic "setting them apart" (flame away, I know you want to), they are not the race that I created and worked on. It would be like asking Wes to make the Geshrin able to get sick, or taking away the Nepleslian's cybernetics, or the Neko's hemosynthesis.

Anyway, that's my side of the explanation, I am sure that Wes, Yangfan, and some others have more to add to it...

 

[Fred]

Your Kohanians face the same problem the elves of Yamatai face. That's one of the reasons you don't see too many elves around too.

You've answered your own question. Your vision of the Kohanians does not match the template set for the SARP. Since you appear not to seem to want to yield on that level, this makes the Kohanians unplayable. While it's perhaps a stern measure, it does prevent the possibility of there being a precedent for other later race submissions to take into account. The only way I could see of even remotely allowing that sort of stuff would be in regard to NPCs.

I mean, Quelya (my planet submission) remains undiscovered, but the planet's 'sentient' dwellers have potent powers - even if you categorize them as NPC living terraforming units *shrugs*

For a playable character race, though, this wouldn't be permissible. Therefore, you can either content yourself with a flat 'no' or see what you can work with.

Let's dig up what's in the ESP rule page...

Empathy takes good roleplaying to pull off. Message sending is the most common function - and apparently not one the Kohanian would seem liable to have. Brute force psionics is generally frowned upon and not all that useful. forced mind reading is pretty much like the Vulcan mind meld as far as I'm concerned... though it might be wireless ^_^;

With GM support, you can have some clairvoyant/divinatory abilities (seldom) or precognitions.

That's what you can play with.

Now, if I was to make an argument in which to allow the elves to survive despite their lack of available magic, I'd personally adapt them so that the more visible part of the culture would actually lean more toward the spiritualism and herbalism which the native americans displayed a couple of centuries ago. With their herbal lore being renowned to the point of their potioncraft 'seeming' magical... I think this would keep the elves culturally strong and consistant with what they were before without the lack of magic harming them too much.

If the player's roleplaying was topnotch into portraying his character as wise, as a GM, I might even indulge in giving that character precognitions. That's mostly based on the player/GM desire to keep arace in character -- which is rare.

See? I adapted a magic capable race. It pretty much still feels like the description we have on site. With this, I might even be able to convince Wes to make the elves of this particular spiritualistic clan playable.

Now, in the Kohanian's case, you need to adapt them for them to be playable. You know you can't use the big supernatural powers with them, so, either you find a decent way to portray the race acceptably (or at least part of the race, which the players would end up playing - just like high elves in D&D are the elves typically played) or you simply drown any tangible hope of seeing them played again.

Might I say, as a personal opinion, that I consider that elves were as magic-dependant as the Kohanians. If the Kohanians are nothing without magic... then perhaps they weren't a suitable character race after all. Taking a race just for the powers over the race's actual culture is cheap.

 

[MissingNo]

Kotori, I strongly don't agree with you calling the Kohanians "cheap". You misunderstood what James meant when he said the Kohanians relied on magic. If you read the example he gave...

Without the magic "setting them apart" (flame away, I know you want to), they are not the race that I created and worked on. It would be like asking Wes to make the Geshrin able to get sick, or taking away the Nepleslian's cybernetics, or the Neko's hemosynthesis.

...it sounds more like magic gives them an identity. He's not playing that race for the power it gives him, he put magic into their cultural make-up to give them something to set them apart from other races like, as he mentioned, enhanced immune systems for Geshrin/Yamatians, Nepleslian cybernetics, etc. Is Wes being cheap for making the Nekos based around hemosynthesis?

It's basically a gimmic, a quality meant to attract other players _AND_ (possibly most importantly) help him stay interested in his race. I must say, the magic system he has created _is_ rather unique, and would be fun to play, imho. It is not reliant on an internal source (like chi or psionics), but an external source for its effects. I'm working with him to finalize the micro-details, but this is basically going to be advanced manipulation of physics based on genetics and a lot of training. As you said, the Native Americans had herbalism that had magic-like effects, well, the same can be said of the Kohanians now.

If you have any questions, I'd welcome the opportunity to help this along. But, since this is a thread for a poll regarding the creation of races by newbies, maybe we should start a new one for this line of conversation?

 

[Fred]

The last paragraph was an impression, not an outright insult to James. Your counter is a good one, though I see the application as magic being the old ways of yesteryear for some non-magic using Kohanians seduced by technology as also being viable for the race while respecting it's magical 'identity' for background history. *shrugs*

One way or another, judging if this new 'magic system' of yours would work or not is Wes' province... not mine. However, I thought it was pretty clear that the SARP was trying to eliminate all magic-like abilities within the setting.

I admit to being puzzled as to why this discussion was brought here in the first place. I mean, the Kohanians are hardly a new species. ^_^;

 

[MissingNo]

I think James was using them as an example for something, and then you asked for more info about them...and then this happened ^_^

Getting this thread back on track...

The restrictions sound about right...I think someone already brought this up, but a "trial" period is a good idea for newcomers who want to create a race. First, the player should RP in a main or side plot as a character not of the race they intend to introduce, to help them get a feel for the RP and learn about the setting a bit. Once they feel confident about that, they can introduce their race either as a "SA, meet ____, ___, meet SA" situation. I agree that letting a single member of the race be introduced might be a bad idea in that the creator-player (being the only one playing that race) could either get tired of playing that race or that race ends up not catching on with the board and the race would need to be dropped, a hard process if the character was an important part of a plot (something that inspired my Melumsi retcon and ended up resulting in the death of Sergei and destruction of Old Kohana).

If a race fails to catch on, though, instead of erasing it from the IC history, let the SA raze the planet, or have some other calamity wipe out the race. If the creator chooses _not_ to review, re-plan, and fix what went wrong and abandons the race, then it could be said that the race died out completely and their part in the history of the SARP and the plot can be left in with no harm to the timeline. If the creator-player does want to fix what went wrong and does manage to get people interested again, then they can play the remnant that rebuilds that culture and race. A new start. Once again as an example, this is what James is trying to do with the Kohanians.

 

[Chigusa]

Keep in mind that there may be a race that could be popular, but later on seen as breaching some sort of a rule. For example:


Race A gets approved
Race A catches on with players
Rule B is passed
Race A breaches Rule B
1/2 Players want to keep Race A
1/2 Players want to observe Rule B
-----------------------------------------------

This creates a dilema.