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Damage Rating Conversion Chart
- Thread starter CadetNewb
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CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
I think you missed it. If you're ok with me editing the article, I can see if I can make it easier to interpret or work on the format.
Fred
Retired Staff
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
Sorry you stepped on a landmine @Guard Dog , it's something that's been talked about to hell and back.
@Fred , I've tried taking a first crack at the article. For now, I've only tampered with the first chart however. I've gone ahead and renamed 'Mecha' to 'Vehicle'. Besides that, I've also expanded the chart to include more examples of both offensive and defensive measures. One downside is that it doesn't look quite right, but with some tinkering, I think I can get the chart to look nicer. More importantly though, I left some areas blank for the time being. With ships in particular, I'm not sure what would go where since I'm not entirely sure what weapons would do what to which ships. For an example, would the Plumeria's main weapon array destroy another Plumeria that's unshielded in just a few shots? Or would it demolish an unshielded Super-Eikan in that manner instead? Alternately, is it a wide area weapon that wipes out destroyers and corvettes, but will take several more shots to destroy an unshielded Plumeria?
The same goes for other ship weapons such as the Sharie's Main Weapon Array. The fact that it's so much larger in size yet has the same DR according to the current system we're trying to replace is absurd, and makes figuring out what does what a lot harder. At the least, smaller things such as PA and vehicles are better defined.
@Fred , I've tried taking a first crack at the article. For now, I've only tampered with the first chart however. I've gone ahead and renamed 'Mecha' to 'Vehicle'. Besides that, I've also expanded the chart to include more examples of both offensive and defensive measures. One downside is that it doesn't look quite right, but with some tinkering, I think I can get the chart to look nicer. More importantly though, I left some areas blank for the time being. With ships in particular, I'm not sure what would go where since I'm not entirely sure what weapons would do what to which ships. For an example, would the Plumeria's main weapon array destroy another Plumeria that's unshielded in just a few shots? Or would it demolish an unshielded Super-Eikan in that manner instead? Alternately, is it a wide area weapon that wipes out destroyers and corvettes, but will take several more shots to destroy an unshielded Plumeria?
The same goes for other ship weapons such as the Sharie's Main Weapon Array. The fact that it's so much larger in size yet has the same DR according to the current system we're trying to replace is absurd, and makes figuring out what does what a lot harder. At the least, smaller things such as PA and vehicles are better defined.
Fred
Retired Staff
I noticed that adjectives like "Very Light" was changed into "Ultra Light". Overall, it's the change that displeases me the most. I use the term "Very Light" / "Very Heavy" in the roleplay, and it's consistent with the very first way of rating weapon damage in SARP. I want to keep that nomenclature.
Multi-kilometer structures was changed to Dreadnoughts. Not sure I like that. I wanted to encourage the Battleship category as being the 'biggest acknowledged ship size' used in SARP, and leave the rest to exceptions and/or space stations. Basically, dreadnoughts probably ought to be counted in the battleship category as long as they haven't gone multi-kilometer (3km+)
There's already an example of how the Plumeria's weaponry might behave at the very bottom of the article. (also, past evidence has shown this kind of gunship being one-shot destroyed a positron cannon shot , so, I'm not positive it belongs in the cruiser category)
I don't mind the change from Mecha to Vehicle, though I think it's disingenuous to our genre. Mecha stands for Mechanical, which can be a whole lot of things, going from robots, to spacecraft, to tanks. It's also more genre accurate to SARP, which essentially stems from strong anime references. I don't think we ought to be compelled to avoid it even for non-robotic units; it's just that we're more used to associating 'mecha' with robots more than we are with shuttles or tanks. but that doesn't mean the word is being used inaccurately.
It kind of bothered me not to see "knife" anywhere, but then I realized that the article kind of went for having protection and using weapons to defeat that protection. There's likely an unspoken "Class 0" standing for T-shirt and knife. But after I thought of that, I figured that I probably actually didn't want bladed melee weaponry to really figure in there because I'm not sure it can be adequately rated besides of the muscle behind a blade, and the blade's material, versus the common sense of what thickness of material is being cut/poked at. In that light, I don't think the Zesuaium Katana should figure in the list. I figure whatever value gets given will constantly get fudged by the narrative anyways (a lightly armored neko gets stabbed in the belly by a zesiaum katana; but she's assuredly not taking "assuredly lethal" damage in the same fashion contact with a live aether saber would cause).
In the examples employed, I kind of sense a reticence to cross categories. I want to specify that "Game-balance" is really mostly out of the window now - it's more a matter of does it make sense for this kind of unit to pack this kind of firepower once it gets NTSE evaluated. It's perfectly fine for an infantryman to carry a bazooka that's a light anti-mecha weapon (class 7).
Multi-kilometer structures was changed to Dreadnoughts. Not sure I like that. I wanted to encourage the Battleship category as being the 'biggest acknowledged ship size' used in SARP, and leave the rest to exceptions and/or space stations. Basically, dreadnoughts probably ought to be counted in the battleship category as long as they haven't gone multi-kilometer (3km+)
There's already an example of how the Plumeria's weaponry might behave at the very bottom of the article. (also, past evidence has shown this kind of gunship being one-shot destroyed a positron cannon shot , so, I'm not positive it belongs in the cruiser category)
I don't mind the change from Mecha to Vehicle, though I think it's disingenuous to our genre. Mecha stands for Mechanical, which can be a whole lot of things, going from robots, to spacecraft, to tanks. It's also more genre accurate to SARP, which essentially stems from strong anime references. I don't think we ought to be compelled to avoid it even for non-robotic units; it's just that we're more used to associating 'mecha' with robots more than we are with shuttles or tanks. but that doesn't mean the word is being used inaccurately.
It kind of bothered me not to see "knife" anywhere, but then I realized that the article kind of went for having protection and using weapons to defeat that protection. There's likely an unspoken "Class 0" standing for T-shirt and knife. But after I thought of that, I figured that I probably actually didn't want bladed melee weaponry to really figure in there because I'm not sure it can be adequately rated besides of the muscle behind a blade, and the blade's material, versus the common sense of what thickness of material is being cut/poked at. In that light, I don't think the Zesuaium Katana should figure in the list. I figure whatever value gets given will constantly get fudged by the narrative anyways (a lightly armored neko gets stabbed in the belly by a zesiaum katana; but she's assuredly not taking "assuredly lethal" damage in the same fashion contact with a live aether saber would cause).
In the examples employed, I kind of sense a reticence to cross categories. I want to specify that "Game-balance" is really mostly out of the window now - it's more a matter of does it make sense for this kind of unit to pack this kind of firepower once it gets NTSE evaluated. It's perfectly fine for an infantryman to carry a bazooka that's a light anti-mecha weapon (class 7).
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Aendri
Inactive Member
It's should probably be pointed out that, in the name of realism, mecha is derived from the same basis as modern day "mechanized units". It's the term generally used for any units that aren't tank based, but still rely heavily on other heavy armored vehicles like APCs and IFVs, basically the step between "armored units" like tanks and standard infantry.
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
The Very Light Ship category is a no-problem thing so I fixed that; I want it to all line up and sound consistent, but that can get tossed out the window since it's not the highest priority thing in the world. I've also added 3km+ Structures to be alongside Dreadnoughts; my rationalization is that they're 3km+ ships by nature anyways. Though, to be honest, I'm a little disappointed the SSD Executor doesn't quite fit here since it's 19km in length. 
Meanwhile, I'm finding the Plumeria somewhat of an unusual case. Though, that's no surprise given the type of ship it is. It's got the minimum length of a cruiser, but is comparable to a tougher destroyer. Plus, I'm still very uncertain about its weapons. I always thought it'd take maybe three or four hits to the hull to kill a Plumeria with the Positron Railguns, not one. The idea that it's main weapon array would also one-shot a Super Eikan is also a surprise to me as well, since the chart is arrayed with weapons defeating the same classification of armor. To play it safe, I'm just going to take the Plumeria off for the time being and not touch that part of the chart for now, since it brings up another concern of mine that I'll revisit in a moment.
As for changing Mecha over to Vehicle, I did so to not exclude everything else that would also fit into that class of offense/defense. What do you think of changing it to just "Mech"? Would that work? The word seems to not emphasize various walkers, but also also caters to various other vehicles from my perspective.
I agree with you on bladed weapons having their damage potential being thrown up to Myths/Legends, Gods and GMs, so I also took the Zesuaium katana out of there as well. The Aether Saber-Rifle however, is still on there regarding both it's saber and its rifle. Not sure if I should take off its saber bit too.
The reticence you're talking about though, I'm honestly not sure how some weapons would translate over to this system and took my best guess. It also partially ties in to the previous concern regarding the Plumeria.
*****
Focusing on that topic in specific though, I don't think I agree on the TTK/Time-To-Kill. I know it'll vary from GM to GM, but right now, it seems excessively quick according to the article.
Overall, I envisioned the TTK being faster the lower the class was, while it'd be longer the higher the class was. Because of the space-age materials used, a 5.56mm rifle would still go through soft-body armor or light polymer plates, but only after breaking them down with a few well placed rounds. A double or triple tap on the chest for an example. Moving up to power armor, I always imagined the TTK when shields are out of the picture to be one or two seconds of fire. I know the article currently states it's on a per-projectile/attack basis, but an unshielded/barrierless M2-A1 Mindy having its chest plate being penetrated by a LASR in one shot seems excessive.
I always imagined that it'd have to take a good burst at the least instead.
And with ships, well, I thought they'd be tough enough that the TTK was along the lines of stuff in Star Wars. Basically having to beat the crap out of each other even though they're the same class, with spinal weapons being the exception. Those, I thought would be the same class as the ship itself and kill an equivalent vessel in one or two shots; the rest of the cannons would be below the ship's own class.
A Plumeria being able to pop an unshielded Super Eikan in one shot, and a shielded one with two or three doesn't seem right. Fights would be very quick and messy, when a plot would need all the armor it can get so they'd have more time to do things. Especially since a GM could just use Anti-Plot Armor whenever they wanted anyways.
Meanwhile, I'm finding the Plumeria somewhat of an unusual case. Though, that's no surprise given the type of ship it is. It's got the minimum length of a cruiser, but is comparable to a tougher destroyer. Plus, I'm still very uncertain about its weapons. I always thought it'd take maybe three or four hits to the hull to kill a Plumeria with the Positron Railguns, not one. The idea that it's main weapon array would also one-shot a Super Eikan is also a surprise to me as well, since the chart is arrayed with weapons defeating the same classification of armor. To play it safe, I'm just going to take the Plumeria off for the time being and not touch that part of the chart for now, since it brings up another concern of mine that I'll revisit in a moment.
As for changing Mecha over to Vehicle, I did so to not exclude everything else that would also fit into that class of offense/defense. What do you think of changing it to just "Mech"? Would that work? The word seems to not emphasize various walkers, but also also caters to various other vehicles from my perspective.
I agree with you on bladed weapons having their damage potential being thrown up to Myths/Legends, Gods and GMs, so I also took the Zesuaium katana out of there as well. The Aether Saber-Rifle however, is still on there regarding both it's saber and its rifle. Not sure if I should take off its saber bit too.
The reticence you're talking about though, I'm honestly not sure how some weapons would translate over to this system and took my best guess. It also partially ties in to the previous concern regarding the Plumeria.
*****
Focusing on that topic in specific though, I don't think I agree on the TTK/Time-To-Kill. I know it'll vary from GM to GM, but right now, it seems excessively quick according to the article.
Overall, I envisioned the TTK being faster the lower the class was, while it'd be longer the higher the class was. Because of the space-age materials used, a 5.56mm rifle would still go through soft-body armor or light polymer plates, but only after breaking them down with a few well placed rounds. A double or triple tap on the chest for an example. Moving up to power armor, I always imagined the TTK when shields are out of the picture to be one or two seconds of fire. I know the article currently states it's on a per-projectile/attack basis, but an unshielded/barrierless M2-A1 Mindy having its chest plate being penetrated by a LASR in one shot seems excessive.
I always imagined that it'd have to take a good burst at the least instead.
And with ships, well, I thought they'd be tough enough that the TTK was along the lines of stuff in Star Wars. Basically having to beat the crap out of each other even though they're the same class, with spinal weapons being the exception. Those, I thought would be the same class as the ship itself and kill an equivalent vessel in one or two shots; the rest of the cannons would be below the ship's own class.
A Plumeria being able to pop an unshielded Super Eikan in one shot, and a shielded one with two or three doesn't seem right. Fights would be very quick and messy, when a plot would need all the armor it can get so they'd have more time to do things. Especially since a GM could just use Anti-Plot Armor whenever they wanted anyways.
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But that is exactly what the massive weapon array on the front of the Plumeria is for. It's a "total annihilation" type weapon that's supposed to wipe out anything you point it at. The larger versions of these on the Sharie are made to plow through entire enemy fleets.
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
To elaborate on what he said, if the Plumeria - or any other for that matter - can kill enemy ships that quickly, it gets harder to have a plot to begin with since it limits what's actually challenging. For an example, in order for the enemies to even be a threat, they'd need sheer numbers to overwhelm firepower of that magnitude, making them less credible. Meanwhile, if the enemy's equivalent ship can do the same amount of damage instead, small scale fights would end up being very quick, dangerous and messy. If they can't, they're not very credible as a threat. Another problem is that such levels of firepower render larger ships as being pointless; if a Super Eikan can be popped with a pair of shots from a Plumeria for an example, why even have it and waste all those resources?
Regarding other settings, it would mean that the Enterprise D wouldn't get into a drawn out fight with its opposing counterpart where the plucky crew would have to come up with some new tactic or use some clever engineering to win the day. Admiral Akbar's Home One would never have to resort to counting on a valiant A-Wing pilot taking out the Executor's bridge because it was slowly losing the point-blank slugging match. Battlestar Galactica wouldn't have to send in its Vipers to take out the Cylon Basestar. They'd all just toast each other in just a few seconds.
For this reason, I suggest that in most cases, a ship's weapons would be under their own class to draw out the fights they go through. Maybe have turreted anti-ship weapons be two levels below the class, while hard mounted ones with very limited aim would be just one class lower. Finally, a spinal cannon would allow it to mount a weapon of its own class, basically insta-killing anything around its own tonnage that doesn't have shields, and taking another shot or two to kill if they do. That right there, is already a game changer. Meanwhile, they'd take multiple shots in order to knock out a vessel a class higher than themselves with the spinal gun, but the fact it'll take maybe half a dozen to a dozen shots rather than fifty to a hundred would be a big deal. A really big deal, since a more 'conventional' ship would be forced to re-enact the opening of Star Wars IV. In exchange, spinal-gun mounted ships would probably have a hard time hitting something that was sufficiently small and fast enough with that big stick, but that's besides the point.
My point is, a short TTK with personnel and infantry is fine, but not so much with starships in a space-opera setting. Anything that goes against that had either be rare or a one-off, and if produced in numbers instead, come with a trade-off.
Regarding other settings, it would mean that the Enterprise D wouldn't get into a drawn out fight with its opposing counterpart where the plucky crew would have to come up with some new tactic or use some clever engineering to win the day. Admiral Akbar's Home One would never have to resort to counting on a valiant A-Wing pilot taking out the Executor's bridge because it was slowly losing the point-blank slugging match. Battlestar Galactica wouldn't have to send in its Vipers to take out the Cylon Basestar. They'd all just toast each other in just a few seconds.
For this reason, I suggest that in most cases, a ship's weapons would be under their own class to draw out the fights they go through. Maybe have turreted anti-ship weapons be two levels below the class, while hard mounted ones with very limited aim would be just one class lower. Finally, a spinal cannon would allow it to mount a weapon of its own class, basically insta-killing anything around its own tonnage that doesn't have shields, and taking another shot or two to kill if they do. That right there, is already a game changer. Meanwhile, they'd take multiple shots in order to knock out a vessel a class higher than themselves with the spinal gun, but the fact it'll take maybe half a dozen to a dozen shots rather than fifty to a hundred would be a big deal. A really big deal, since a more 'conventional' ship would be forced to re-enact the opening of Star Wars IV. In exchange, spinal-gun mounted ships would probably have a hard time hitting something that was sufficiently small and fast enough with that big stick, but that's besides the point.
My point is, a short TTK with personnel and infantry is fine, but not so much with starships in a space-opera setting. Anything that goes against that had either be rare or a one-off, and if produced in numbers instead, come with a trade-off.
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Reading what has been said in relation to weapons and time to kill, I have noticed something that troubles me. All of the arguments against powerful weaponry assumes that it will hit. What you need to do is write the narrative in such a way that you don't have two ships floating in space taking pot shots at each other like a 19th century pistol duel. Sure a Plumeria might be able to pop a Super Eikan in one shot, however the Super Eikan has a wider variety of options that would make lining up the shot very dangerous for said Plumeria. Crews would have to work to manage to line up the main gun on the enemy while trying to avoid taking crippling fire in return.
To use a parallel that might be easier to visualize, it would be a complex engagement much like the melee combat that you have going on presently in your Fifth Fleet plot. Each group has weapons that could prove fatal to the other very quickly, however both parties need to be careful, as over-extending their efforts to earn a kill would leave themselves open to a counter attack which could potentially cause them to loose the engagement.
Starship combat should be the same. One should have to look at the capabilities of their vessel as well as its limitations, such as how the main gun on a Plumeria only fires in a straight line in front of the vessel. You then have to work around those factors. The Plumeria would have to work to position itself to be able to open up with its main gun on a foe without being shredded by return fire, especially since it would have to dedicate power to the charging of the main weapon array which may or may not draw from the shields of the vessel, or the engines weakening it defensively, or perhaps simply the increased energy signature as the weapon readies the shot would cause the enemy to focus fire in an effort to either destroy the ship or at the very least disable the main weapon.
So again while a small ship like a Plumeria might be able to carry a gun that can catastrophically damage a larger vessel, the larger vessel would have more options to it with a wider array of weapons or possibly the ability to carry fighters, bombers, or whatever else it may have. Think of it like how IRL a torpedo boat would have the potential to sink a battleship while the battleship's size would give it the advantage in armament variety as well as options.
Just because a small unit has a big gun that can hurt a larger unit doesn't mean that the smaller unit is superior.
To use a parallel that might be easier to visualize, it would be a complex engagement much like the melee combat that you have going on presently in your Fifth Fleet plot. Each group has weapons that could prove fatal to the other very quickly, however both parties need to be careful, as over-extending their efforts to earn a kill would leave themselves open to a counter attack which could potentially cause them to loose the engagement.
Starship combat should be the same. One should have to look at the capabilities of their vessel as well as its limitations, such as how the main gun on a Plumeria only fires in a straight line in front of the vessel. You then have to work around those factors. The Plumeria would have to work to position itself to be able to open up with its main gun on a foe without being shredded by return fire, especially since it would have to dedicate power to the charging of the main weapon array which may or may not draw from the shields of the vessel, or the engines weakening it defensively, or perhaps simply the increased energy signature as the weapon readies the shot would cause the enemy to focus fire in an effort to either destroy the ship or at the very least disable the main weapon.
So again while a small ship like a Plumeria might be able to carry a gun that can catastrophically damage a larger vessel, the larger vessel would have more options to it with a wider array of weapons or possibly the ability to carry fighters, bombers, or whatever else it may have. Think of it like how IRL a torpedo boat would have the potential to sink a battleship while the battleship's size would give it the advantage in armament variety as well as options.
Just because a small unit has a big gun that can hurt a larger unit doesn't mean that the smaller unit is superior.
So are we ever going to be able to whack oversized weapons on platforms that have massive repercussions for them that seriously harm their operators or risk permeant damage to the platform in firing?
An example is a concept I'm toying with called a proximity cannon: An addon for a frame or fighter which is an oversized starship grade weapon. The weapon does not have the power source locally but instead is beamed or transferred energy via a collector assembly from a host starship: The power source is purely driven from the parent or host platform: storing a single shot then firing it, then needing a direct recharge from the host starship.
The upside is the ability to precision fire a starship grade weapon in an environment or combat theatre where the starship is not.
The downside is it has huge cooling requirements, the cannon itself is heavy, the collector assembly is mechanically complex, there must be a direct line of sight between the unit in the field and the host starship and the two must be able to communicate -- and the latency between shots grows with distance, meaning the shot time becomes exponentially longer.
Its a neat concept but what it boils down to is this:
I want to be put an SDR1 weapon on an ADR4 machine. Because its a while weight-class above, there should be lots of flaws and problems. Similarly, the same should also be true in reverse: If an SDR grade platform uses an ADR weapon it should have lots of advantages like rate of fire, recoil compensation, energy delivery and cooling.
An example is a concept I'm toying with called a proximity cannon: An addon for a frame or fighter which is an oversized starship grade weapon. The weapon does not have the power source locally but instead is beamed or transferred energy via a collector assembly from a host starship: The power source is purely driven from the parent or host platform: storing a single shot then firing it, then needing a direct recharge from the host starship.
The upside is the ability to precision fire a starship grade weapon in an environment or combat theatre where the starship is not.
The downside is it has huge cooling requirements, the cannon itself is heavy, the collector assembly is mechanically complex, there must be a direct line of sight between the unit in the field and the host starship and the two must be able to communicate -- and the latency between shots grows with distance, meaning the shot time becomes exponentially longer.
Its a neat concept but what it boils down to is this:
I want to be put an SDR1 weapon on an ADR4 machine. Because its a while weight-class above, there should be lots of flaws and problems. Similarly, the same should also be true in reverse: If an SDR grade platform uses an ADR weapon it should have lots of advantages like rate of fire, recoil compensation, energy delivery and cooling.
Fred
Retired Staff
TTK is something that I consider entirely malleable to the whims of a plot's GM. Typically, I try to set the baseline closer to Wes.
As for my thinking on the Plumeria:
I once saw a positron cannon one-shot a Sakura. A Plumeria is kind of like a Sakura. To me, the positron cannon is class 11, so, that makes the Plumeria a good class 11 candidate. To me, the Plumeria doesn't have the hallmarks of even a light cruiser - an interceptor glass cannon with little "crunchability " and most of its vital systems just below the surface of the ship.
So, yeah, to me, the Plumeria would fit in the broad "Destroyer" category. Yes, this puts it at the same place as the Chiaki. However, the Chiaki is advertised as an extremely tough little ship following similar design processes as the Plumeria, whereas the larger Plumeria profits from larger crew, more amenities, smallcraft, cargo, intra-stellar capabilities and a greater weapon payload. I don't find it wanting very much. Also, it's practically built around a giant cannon, so, I don't mind giving it the gunship consideration (I'd also point out that there's favoritism toward the design by the setting admin that we should just take with a grain of salt and move on)
Compare it with the Urufu, and I don't feel too bad for the Plumeria. The Urufu is a light cruiser, and when you look at its makeup, it feels like a cruiser.
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I'm more comfortable with Vehicle than "Mech". >_>;
Mecha > Vehicle > Mech
I'll accept Vehicle as a necessary evil. It was just not my preference.
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Yes, Osaka, it's fine for an infantryman to use a bazooka. It's fine for a Fighter-bomber to have torpedoes that can be a threat to starships. It's fine for a tracked tank to have a turreted cannon that can threaten a scoutship.
As for my thinking on the Plumeria:
I once saw a positron cannon one-shot a Sakura. A Plumeria is kind of like a Sakura. To me, the positron cannon is class 11, so, that makes the Plumeria a good class 11 candidate. To me, the Plumeria doesn't have the hallmarks of even a light cruiser - an interceptor glass cannon with little "crunchability " and most of its vital systems just below the surface of the ship.
So, yeah, to me, the Plumeria would fit in the broad "Destroyer" category. Yes, this puts it at the same place as the Chiaki. However, the Chiaki is advertised as an extremely tough little ship following similar design processes as the Plumeria, whereas the larger Plumeria profits from larger crew, more amenities, smallcraft, cargo, intra-stellar capabilities and a greater weapon payload. I don't find it wanting very much. Also, it's practically built around a giant cannon, so, I don't mind giving it the gunship consideration (I'd also point out that there's favoritism toward the design by the setting admin that we should just take with a grain of salt and move on)
Compare it with the Urufu, and I don't feel too bad for the Plumeria. The Urufu is a light cruiser, and when you look at its makeup, it feels like a cruiser.
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I'm more comfortable with Vehicle than "Mech". >_>;
Mecha > Vehicle > Mech
I'll accept Vehicle as a necessary evil. It was just not my preference.
* * *
Yes, Osaka, it's fine for an infantryman to use a bazooka. It's fine for a Fighter-bomber to have torpedoes that can be a threat to starships. It's fine for a tracked tank to have a turreted cannon that can threaten a scoutship.
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