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Damage Rating Revision Discussion

Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

Bitterness aside, it does seem a decent compromise, and still is an improvement on the former Damage Rating system (in my eyes).

One problem which does crop up are the weapon pods. If they have anti-mecha damage output, it made them very effective at shooting down missiles and harming mechas - I've really no problem imagining a Plumeria's weapon pods mowing down power armor (I hate weapon pods, but I still think the prospect of attacking any ship from outside with a power armor should prove a most daunting task).

However, I'd recommend not giving them a striking power above Heavy anti-mecha damage. If you creep up to anti-starship damage for each weapon pods, and that you have 36, you effectively place them in a position where the sum of them are stronger than the main guns.

Be wary of the NSP on heavy setting being on Very Heavy anti-personnel damage. If that's the case, you effectively give Kotori a chance with her pair of NSPs set on heavy to harm power armors like the Mindy. Not much, but some.

Some consideration might be needed for physical attacks. For example, where does a mecha kicking another situate itself in this? A human knifing another human, or a Ketsurui Samurai swinging her zesuaium katana at a power armor or a tank?
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

I would put them at Starship 1 or 2, probably 2 for aether pods only; this is because they're not anti-mecha weapons, they're for shooting enemy starships, too. It's still a lot better than having them as DR 10 on the old scale.

Be wary of the NSP on heavy setting being on Very Heavy anti-personnel damage. If that's the case, you effectively give Kotori a chance with her pair of NSPs set on heavy to harm power armors like the Mindy. Not much, but some.
Click to expand...
I think that's the way it should be. Remember the power is equivalent to a grenade or explosive, and can blow a whole car to bits in one hit.

Some consideration might be needed for physical attacks. For example, where does a mecha kicking another situate itself in this? A human knifing another human, or a Ketsurui Samurai swinging her zesuaium katana at a power armor or a tank?
Click to expand...
Melee attacks should be determined by the GMs. There's a lot of factor with force involved, so there's no consistent level of damage for melee attacks. Thus we'll not try to include melee on the DR scale, except for maybe special energy sabers, etc.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

I would put them at Starship 1 or 2, probably 2 for aether pods only; this is because they're not anti-mecha weapons, they're for shooting enemy starships, too. It's still a lot better than having them as DR 10 on the old scale.
Click to expand...

So, are we dealing with 36 weapon systems considered to be a light damage anti-starship weapon each... or do we treat weapon pods as a collective light damage Anti-ship weapon that does that damage output through a lot of multiple hits around that it can spread?

Remember, I was trying to convey that the damage ratings were so to estimate how much punishment a weapon could dish out, and that could work with anything from a machinegun to a volley of missiles.

I admit, I find the latter much more tasteful. It effectively gives you a very rapid firing omni-directional turret against an opposing starship, while giving the punch to turn into swiss cheese most mecha just like you wanted.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

Basically, DR-Personnel-10 is probably equal to DR-Mecha-3, and so forth.

Hold on...


Damage Chart
(For Anti-Starship weapons on mecha, use the starship damage grade, etc, personnel, etc...) 7 is lethal to light/unarmored units in all circumstances.


It should be noted under some circumstances, mecha will be using Anti-Starship weapons (weapons on the starship damage grade) and anti-personnel weapons (weapons on the personnel damage grade) and so forth and this is outlined with that in mind for anyone who's like "Yeah but... Wait, what?", thinking this is unlike the existing model.

The scale is obviously a little off but this is a good foundation to start with, where we can make adjustments and everyone understand it all.


[X] Blue - Cosmetic/None
[!] Red - Annihilation
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

Osakan, I was working more on a chart that'd look like this:

APR: Anti-Personnel Rating
AMR: Anti-Mecha Rating
ASR: Anti-Starship Rating

APR AMR ASR
001
002
003
004
005 001
010 002
015 003
020 004
025 005 001
050 010 002
075 015 003
100 020 004
125 025 005

I figured one which would have the next higher tier equal five times a lower tier would be easy to remember and convert on the fly. A factor of five increments per grade also allows a Very Light, Light, Moderate, Heavy and Very Heavy adjectives to be used.

And yes, I expect some mecha units would have anti-starship weapons, though they could very well translate into Very Heavy type weapons for their own grade.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

Oh, I see: We're going beyond the usual 10?

This leaves room for expansion.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

Technically I think it should be the former, but either works, and I wouldn't restrict GMs from using the latter interpretation.

How do we determine defensive DRs?
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

**UPDATE**

I have decided to APPROVE the weapon portion of the DR system, as posted on the Damage Rating wiki page.

I will begin updating weapons on Star Army equipment to the appropriate new DRs.

The armor portion is still in development.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

Is it understood that this current 'approved' system has no way of interfacing with our current rule set and as such can't be used in RP despite its approved status?

This means that the submission is both incomplete and for a later date.

Also, Fred's proposed structure points system would give star bases more than 10 times the HP capable of being dished out by the most powerful weapon rendering star bases entirely immune to all weapons.

And in addition to this, starship main guns like the Aether shock cannon, now will have an even higher raiting while other guns will only get a slight increase or no increase at all. This effectively is a nerf to all non-aether weapons.

From what I understood this is exactly the opposite of what this system was designed to do.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

In the meantime, GMs can covert old DR ratings to the new scale by merely diving the old rating by two. It's not complicated, Uso.

I also disagree that this system nerfs non-aether weapons (many "aether" weapons have been getting 3 or 4s instead of 5s).

The new system works: Mecha can no longer slice starships in half, etc.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

Mecha and power armor weren't able to slice ships in half before. They weapons were able to penetrate a ship's armor and shields but ultimately ended up only causing pinpricks of damage against them which is as it should be.

Aether weapons are total annihilation which means under this system and under your suggestion that DR ratings simply be halfed they would be considered rank 3 DR 5 weapons.

In addition to this halving the armor value of something to fit with this new system effectively breaks armor if this is how you do intend to make it fit with armors DR raitings. As such a laser weapon will always be able to penetrate zesu, a material that is entirely resistant to such weapons, simply because its ranked as a star ship weapon. This armor mechanic would be entirely broken.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

I plan to eventually strip most "aether" weapons of their titles, because most current aether weapons are actually aether powered energy beams rather than actual aether. Only starship weapons that were already Total Annihilation are being assigned SDR 5 ratings (aether shock and legacy).

To an extent, having starship weapons be able to defeat Zesu PAs is intentional.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

To an extent perhaps, but it does not accurately reflect what should be happening when a weapon meets armor.

Or if you want another example of how the new system is broken take an example from the star base shields. weapons no longer stack in this system which effectively makes a DR 10 shield immune to all weapons unlike where before a DR10 shield could be overloaded and taken down by sufficient strength 8 weapons and above.

This seriously looks like everyone likes this because of a few attributes but that the majority haven't considered how it applies to the RP.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

That's assuming shields work the same way. As in: set number, bring in a damage value higher or fail to do damage at all, higher damage value results in protection being decreased.

Like I pointed out before, the way to interpret shields I'd use would be to give the shield a mitigation value against weapons. Everytime the energy shielding is struck, the damage given is blocked or reduced by the shield. However, the amount of damage blocked goes to deplete the shield's ability to absorb damage.

I'll give an example:

#1 SAoY Training Drone (Ki-D2-1c Yushi hull)
Starship-grade Yamataium armor, 10 structural points
CFS shielding, Absorbtion: 10, Threshold: 1
Click to expand...

The Plumeria makes a flying pass by the drone, turning to get into position to fire its front weapon, and also begins charging its aether shock array. As it does so, it looses a flurry of beam fire from its weapon pods. The attacks are blunted somewhat by the shields, but the training drones shielding can't cope entirely with the volley and some of it dig rents in the armor.

#1 Training Drone status:
9 structural points left
CFS shielding: Absorbtion: 9/10, Threshold: 1

The Plumeria then lines up its prow with the drone and closes in, firing all its positron cannons. Though the drones shield still are active, they prove woefully insufficient to protect the ship from harm, only blunting about half of the volley. For good measure, the Plumeria adds some weapon pods fire to that. the drone' armor now has breaches in several places and it has severe internal damage.

#1 Training Drone status:
2 structural points left
CFS shielding: Absorbtion: 2/10, Threshold: 1

The Plumeria finishes off with another volley of positron and weapon pod fire.

Another drone then flies into range for further weapon's training.

#2 SAoY Training Drone (Ke-S3-1E Sakura hull)
Starship-grade Reinforced Yamataium armor, 20 structural points
CFS shielding - Absorbtion: 20, Threshold: 2
Click to expand...

In the wait between the two engagements, the Plumeria's Aether Shock Cannon reached full charge. With a new target facing it, it wastes no time in releasing the power of its deadliest weapon. The drone's shields save it from disintegration, but they are still insufficient to entirely hold off the attack and the ship's armor sustains some damage.

#2 Training Drone status:
17 structural points left
CFS shielding: Absorbtion: 18/20, Threshold: 2

Plumeria then fires its arsenal of positron cannons and weapon pods on the second drone, though this drone boasts stronger shielding than the first one and the protection is sufficiently good enough to spare any damage from reaching the training vehicle's hull - though the shielding's ability to protect the ship from harm is significantly depleted. The Plumeria's aether shock cannon begins recharging.

#2 Training Drone status:
17 structural points left
CFS shielding: Absorbtion: 6/20, Threshold: 2

The Plumeria standstill and continues pouring weapons fire into the target. The positron cannons and weapon pods lash out at the drone's shields until they finally totally give out, depleted, and exposing the vulnerable hull beneath. Some shots fly through unopposed and seriously savage the armor.

(it stopped the equivalent of 3 positron cannons. The three others and the weapon pods effectively struck the hull directly)

#2 Training Drone status:
9 structural points left
CFS shielding: Absorbtion: 0/20, Threshold: 2

The Plumeria holds off, finishes charging its main cannon and then fires. Shieldless, the drone vanishes before the onslaught. (alternatively, another full weapon volley might have destroyed it too)

* * *

Above was the way I personally preferred to view it, though I certainly don't suggest we start making starship battles go like this - this is more of a benchmark test. Before Uso tears into it, I'd just mention that while I see no problem in using it for myself that I figured some might find it complicated (despite it just being a matter of substractions).

from a game designer's point of view, I think it'd work great on tabletop PnP. This is sort of like how the Stoneskin spell worked in D&D 3rd edition and I never found that complicated; a damage buffer and a damage reduction value.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

With only half of the system 'approved' shields still do work in the same way. Not withstanding the problems inherit in this system DR 10 shields are still completely immune to damage.

Problems with this system off the top of my head include a lack of description on how it works other than examples and additional inconsistency with how weapons already work requiring additional recon in addition to having to change all the DR stats.

Shields already do provide mitigation against damage with how they work. Currently this is only replacing a working system with an incomplete system.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

The idea of scaling damage to size is great and much needed to help provide a consistent and understandable system to the average RPer on this site.

It's kind of like a Rifts version of SDC and MDC damage, except less retarded. In that system SDC could never puncture MDC and 1 MDC was = to 100 SDC (which in most cases was utter annihilation of said SDC materials). Because of this, everything was made into MDC and SDC just got ignored completely.

What's nice about this system is that it eliminates the problem that we had with certain levels of DR never being able to hurt anything by allowing some of the damage levels to overlap (level 5 foot weapon = level 1 PA weapon). It's also MUCH easier to understand because it's all in multiples of 5 and takes just a second to skim through.

As much as I hate PvP and think we should be stepping away from it entirely, if this kind of system is used to arbitrate battles, it could be much more tolerable.

I also like how it seemingly nerfs everything across the board. Even a level 5 starship weapon doesn't mean an instantaneous kill anymore when against another starship.

HOWEVER, I feel that 'collective systems' should share the same rating. That is, you don't go stacking aether shock cannons on a ship and expect to be pulling 3 shots per attempt at 5 damage each. Rather, I want those 3 shock cannons to be pooled into one level 5 shot per volley.

I'm sick of seeing ships with loads of weapons and turrets and I think that implementing that kind of idea would put an end to the stupid amount of lasers we put on our ships.

I don't see how Aether is looking like king here if it's just a hypothetical 5-grade starship weapon versus a 4 or 3 on another ship. The difference is close enough to make any battle exciting.

The next step, though is to make an absolute limit to the amount of weapons of each type you can stick on a ship.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for armor and shields, I'm still a little fuzzy on that one. I need a very easy explanation.
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

I like this but this would mean that we'd be using the Simulation Chamber more, to see if a weapon or defensive system's values need tweaking.

I'd also appreciate a full layman's term break-down of every value and an explanation as to what's happening with the numbers so new users aren't flummoxed by what they see.

(To be honest, sheilds/armor still confuse me just a tiny bit).
 
Re: Fred's revision on the DR system

I know what you mean...I used to GM Robotech: The Role-Playing Game.
I have to disagree on this one. You're basically saying that a squad of gunships shooting your starbase does the same damage as a lone gunship. 1 = 5 is a mathematically incorrect statement. Think about that. Not allowing weapons to stack just doesn't make sense.

I am also still fuzzy on the shields and armor.
 
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