[Discussion] Year 2016 Revision on FTL speeds.

[CadetNewb]

@Dumont

You make several good points, but the issue here is more about self contained plots rather than PvP, though, it was a problem in the past with that too.

One of the main arguments for having slower FTL speeds, besides dramatic tension, is that if a GM chooses to delay one side's response when FTL speeds are high, it's difficult to justify so that they don't look like idiots. That is, if they're able to get there so quickly, why haven't they? Reasons can be come up with, but depending on the context, the very same rationale can be perfectly reasonable, or make said military look utterly incompetent. Take for an example, how we're currently at 'peace time'. Backup had better arrive fast, since there really shouldn't be anything keeping them since the entire military is huge, they can travel quickly, and are sitting around doing nothing but guarding stuff. You simply can't say they were busy now, while you could when there was a total war going on.

Yes, a GM can come up with something, but that gets tougher at times, limiting RP options if we're trying to not make one side or another look foolish or incompetent out of respect for another player faction, or any faction for that matter.

 

[Dumont]

Well, keep in mind that I'm only half invested in this.

What is this due respect thing, exactly? Because it's not exactly making sense to me right off the top of my head. You need to respect other factions by always giving them an opportunity to turn up with full force and a perfect response at all times to any situation, else they look incompetent in some capacity. The demand for this respect is so high that people are arguing about how reasons must be manufactured so that none are at fault when things go bad.

To me this just sounds like people are unwilling to get their toys dirty when playing in the sandbox, so to speak. We are all here to have fun in the sandbox, it's why I joined you all in it. And in my experience the best kinds of fun are the ones where you're exhausted and in need of a shower afterwards.

...phrasing.

There's nothing wrong with having one side or another look incompetent, since unless this is player characters being forced into a situation where they are incompetent (which should not happen): Those factions can just have someone unimportant demoted or shamed in some way, and replaced with someone competent. Something happens in the background, the entire setting has to react in some way, and the world is fleshed out more. Character is gained.

I'm on the record as stating many times that there is no fun in always having something be perfect, and without conflict or failing. If you only set things up so that all you do happens flawlessly, and only accept conflict which has been meticulously curated to be sterile and inoffensive; then you're just setting yourself up to fall apart when everyone gets salty over just how to curate what could be a big fun mess.

 

[CadetNewb]

It's common courtesy to be honest, not a desire to have things perfect. Though, I have to point out that it's actually the desire to have imperfection on the site that's the main motive for having slower FTL times (where, in a 'long' trip between Yamatai and Jiyuu, the time is still only 4 days). After all, what's more perfect than a nation that'll always be there to save the day within a few hours at least, and a single day at most? Moving on though. Yes, we can get some dirt and muck here and there, but it's considered pretty bad form to just drag them through the stuff without permission. I'd feel bad if someone did that to my faction, and I would think you'd feel the same regarding one you're attached to.

The Fridge Logic, or hindsight, to a situation or circumstance manufactured to get around the limitations of having fast FTL travel can also look very damning. Much like a movie you suddenly realize has a bunch of plot holes once you get home and are rummaging through the fridge in thought, hence the name. Plus...some factions could use a break from looking incompetent to be honest. Yamatai for an example, has such an incredible - as in, lacking credibility - track record, it's amazing all their neighbors haven't simply combined arms against it. Yes, we'll definitely get each other's toys dirty, but let's say it's my own faction that I'm having not come to the rescue as a GM. Yeah, I'll get it dirty too, but not to the point it looks utterly damning, or with repeat frequency.

My argument against having a fast FTL also includes the fact that it's always easier to reinforce, help or save people as a GM than it is to create the trouble to begin with. There's simply more tools on hand for it. With that in mind, why not make it easier for a plot's story to happen? Resolving it, OOC wise, is the fun part after all.

 

[Dumont]

I don't think anything should be done without permission, no one's factions or players should be shoehorned into acting in a set way without being given options. This does not mean that they should not be forced to make difficult decisions however. So don't get me wrong when I say that there should be less respect paid. At the same time, I've seen just about every roleplaying community I've joined fall apart due to an old guard demanding that their creations be respected. It's a balancing act between pandering and actual respect to keep these things going.

I don't really know Yamatai's reputation, since it's one of the least interesting factions on this forum to me (Go team Freespacer). But if there's some sort of OOC reasoning requiring the entire setting to be retconned or warped around them to maintain a desired in-universe reputation: Then there's something seriously wrong with that reasoning. Yamatai is a cool faction, even if it's not entirely to my tastes, but a large empire with a shady reputation trying to be a genuinely heroic force for good in the universe makes a better story for me than 'we are already an incredibly competent force for good' which is what it comes off as trying to be when people say they need this to adjust reputations.

I was called in for the newbie opinion, as someone who's been here about four months. All I'm seeing is squabbling over technical specifics that mean next to nothing to me; I quantify ship speeds as 'fast' and 'not so fast'. I don't really OOCly care about how long time is in transit as I know I'll always arrive in time for the next plot point where I can continue playing a character doing cooler stuff than I can do in life.

My actual preference for long or short haul FTL? Long haul. Because I like to imagine my characters doing fun stuff in transit. Arccos sits around the armor bay on the Queen's Slave in her underwear playing video games. Shiho does weights and plays zero-g basketball in the Eucharis. Kiver snuggles into the cockpit with ship technical specifications and an enormous blush on her face. Those are just more fun to imagine for me than mutually assured destruction and cold war style terror of murderfleets turning up at any second.

 

[Amaryllis]

Current travel time between the Yamatai and Nataria is about 4-6 hours. If you can't have a dramatic 'holding out for help' scene in that amount of time I don't think you'll be able to do it with 4to6 + 8 hours.

I don't see why you'd think that when it'd be more than doubling the time meaning a battle with more than twice as many ships could be resolved with that change. You say the difference is only minutes but then it's actually hours and then it's actually more than doubling travel time which you think is already adequate for resolving space battles before help can arrive or having a battle of attrition. I don't see why doubling an already sufficient amount of time wouldn't be significant when it means people have much more time to do things before and after the battle phase. It'd mean ships and crews below military standards would still be easily able to terrorize an area and have time to safely get away. It'd mean areas that could now be quickly supported would be much more vulnerable to attack or be vulnerable when they weren't at all. Ships would need to travel less than half the current distance away from a point to be out of range of helping at it. You could even argue it'd be adding too much time not too little. First the difference is too small, then it potentially seems to large to me at least for some people but either way it doesn't matter to you. At what points in speed do travel times matter to you? Does travel time just never matter to you?

 

[Fred]

Zack's operating on flawed information.
Current travel time from Yamatai to Nataria is 8 minutes, since the Plumeria - our example case - goes at 1 light year per minute.

Dumont is right in the aspect that we're squabbling. However, the only real dissenting voice is Zack, who's trying to act as a one-man army, and we're getting bogged in his argument that just circles over the same tired points. This thread is pretty much done.

We've discussed that if a revision of the FTL speeds would be done, and those that constructively addressed the point helped define the following as desirable sweetspot:

• Convert hyperspace speed from lightyear per minute to lightyear per hour
• Convert CDD-based FTL travel by dividing it by ten.

Wes was given several alerts, but hasn't returned to this. Next step, as I see it, would be to actually put that up to a site-wide vote to see how much of our memberbase supports it.

Thread locked

 

[Wes]

Current travel time from Yamatai to Nataria is 8 minutes, since the Plumeria - our example case - goes at 1 light year per minute.

It would take at least an hour in STL speeds to enter and exit each of these systems due to the current FTL system where a star's gravity well (hill sphere) creates a no-FTL zone around it. So the trip from Yamatai orbit to Nataria orbit would take at least two hours and eight minutes. It is my opinion that the current system provides a sufficient "time buffer" to allow action to happen. Most space battles last far less than 2 hours.

 

[Fred]

Thread re-opened

Therefore, as things are, despite the feedback given in this thread, you do not want our FTL travel - in terms of how fast it is - to see any adjustment based on the agreed upon revision.

Alright @Wes. I asked you to make a decision, you gave me an opinion. Unless you tell me this should go for a community vote, I consider this is as final as it gets.

Is it okay to explore the thematics behind SARP's FTL travel in order to tighten the details on it, as well as contemplate changes such as spacy mobility for power armor and phasing out CDD speed in favor of Hyperspace?

 

[Wes]

Well, I think it's obvious from the wide interpretations of travel times that the current rules aren't clear enough. We should probably try to define things better regardless.

 

[Fred]

Alright. Putting this thread on ice. We'll get another discussion going shortly.

Thread locked.