Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military?

[Doshii Jun]

Answer can be found here. In sum: No, they do not, but caveats apply.


If a Neko or a Neko couple have a youngling, and they're currently not on active duty (they're on the Prestige system or salary, taking time off from their service), does the Neko youngling have to serve in the Yamataian military?

The ethos is "the Empire gave them life," but for the youngling, that's not the case (directly, anyway). Especially with NH-33, who can produce younglings with basic programming instead of the military suite.

That leads me to think that younglings are not duty-bound to serve, even if some want to.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Exactly. What she knows at birth. Why would you birth a Nekovalkyrja youngling with civilian-only memories/programming if she was going to become part of the military? It makes no sense ... unless that Neko is taking on a deweaponized body.

Let me be utterly clear about that: a deweaponized, civilian-grade NH-33 Tennyo body. Not a Minkan. This is an option.

That's why I wrote out the three possibilities above. When I read those articles, that's how it reads to me, especially in light of what Wes said about a "military-grade body." If a Neko opts to deweaponize and go for a civilian-grade body, why would she be forced to serve?

There's more, later down in the article, that suggests she has the option to serve: weaponized features, such as SACN access, remain inactive "unless she enlists."

 

[Nashoba]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

The Mother can choose to give birth to an NH-31 Minkan, which has complete freedom of choice.

She can choose to make a NH-33Y Tennyo child, and give it military training equal to a Yontô Hei, or a very basic programming set and let the child grow into its own self.

A NH-33Y that does not go into the Service, has the same stats as a NH-33 who has left the service. The lower strength, no access to PANTHEON etc. So the NH-33Y should have the right to choose its path when it reaches maturity.

After all, when the NMX war ends, mass production of Neko's will be severely curtailed. If mass numbers are not being destroyed/killed etc. Then the Star Army can fill its ranks with volunteers of NH-31 and NH-33's. Which in the long term would be a better force, because they have an understanding of the Civilian experience that they are expected to fight and die to protect.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

OK! So I was reading the NH-33 creator's articles correctly. Good to know.

So we need Wes to jive with that or overturn it.

 

[raz]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

These discrepancies seem like the unfortunate consequence of oversight during approval. As I see it, Wes' vision has always been that Neko leaving service would transfer to the "civilian model" NH body. If they reenlist, they'd transfer back to the best Neko model. In any case, the question's been asked, and then answered by Wes: Neko are military beings, earned, etc.

Why, from an OoC standpoint, we'd want to remove the social and cultural challenges that give Neko players unique RP opportunities is beyond me.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Wes hasn't answered my question because he hasn't looked over all of the evidence that points opposite his desires and instead to the creator's intent.

If he wants to overturn it, he can say so, and we'll get to editing, or he can clash with Nash (aw yeah rhymin') about it.

I don't care how this goes; I just want it consistent from Wes' mouth right to the wiki.

 

[Wes]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

The way I see it, Nekovalkyrja are military property. I'm purely talking about the hardware--the body. That's why NH-29 soldiers that don't transfer into civilian bodies are not allowed to move to other nations and are subject to being drafted if things get bad. It ahould be the same way for the 33. In order to be totally out of the military reserve you have to give up the military body. Younglings are born as fully sapient killing machines, not as kids. I always thought of deweaponized 33s as a DRM-like failsafe, not as an option for childraising. The point is, if we make non-military NH-33s an option then they go from equipment to a proper species, essentially creating a second Minkan whose body is obtained via family instead of honorable military service. That is an entirely different class/race relationship from the clear civilan/veteran one at the heart of Yamataian RP.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Wes, are you willing to compromise on that somehow, or do we need to get to overhauling the NH-33 article?

Again, I don't mind either way. I just want it consistent.

 

[raz]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Isn't "you can live a civilian life as a reservist" a pretty big compromise between the absolutes?

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

It would be if that was the case, but it isn't yet.

We've got a lot of parts to the NH-33 series of wiki articles that suggest opposite of what Wes just said. That's a problem I would like to be fixed. If he wants to compromise to make less work or to change the nature of the RP or whatever, that's cool.

No pressure to do that. None. Zero. I mean it.

If he wants his vision to be THE vision, then we can make that happen, no problem.

I just want that clear-cut call to be made. I don't want "I always saw it as;" I want "this is how it needs to be, right now."

 

[Wes]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Heres's how I envision the life of a neko born to a neko:

X months of Socialization time with mom.
Y months of SAOY training
(3 years minus Y) active duty
If the neko doesn't reenlist, she becomes inactive reservist leading a civilan life.

Note that sapient AI are required to serve for 6 years under current law but I don't think that applies to natural born nekos.

Does that sound reasonable?

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Sure, sounds fine. Like I said, I don't mind anyway; you're the boss.

So we need to modify the wiki articles to say this. Are we cleared to do that? You're overriding Nashoba's intent here, so before changes get made, I want you to be fully aware of that.

 

[Wes]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

I'd like to wait until the weekend so I can discuss it more with people. After I make the final call, I want to write an article that covers all of this so we can avoid future confusion.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Sounds great. I will hold off on editing the opening post with the answer until it's fully decided.

A request, though? Please stick to your timeline. I know we're all busy, but clarifying this would be a big deal. Thanks.

 

[Revolver]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Okay, posting here in addition to IRC since I know not everyone hangs out in there. Since reading this thread I felt like this topic had already been discussed at length, but was having trouble finding the thread it happened in.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4232

I think the information here is very pertinent to the current discussion.

 

[raz]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

On page two of that thread there is a link to a thread from a year earlier directing you to a discussion of the same thing.

Meta.

We need to go deeper.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

The game changed with the NH-33, and with the idea of younglings, which those threads didn't quite address.

I tried to narrowly tailor my question to specific models and instances, and now that retirements and service lengths have changed, I felt it pertinent to bring up.

Still, great threads to bring up. Shows that we keep having certain problems.

 

[Wes]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Thanks for the link, Revolver! That's exactly what we needed.

After some discussion with Fred and Jake:

1. NH-29s can only be obtained while in military service with 2 or more years remaining in enlistment contract. NH-29s (excluding the S [stealth] models) will be allowed to keep their body on retirement, although it is strongly encouraged to switch to Yamataian so you can have babies instead of just youngling clones. The NH-29 reproductive functions are are for raising troops, not for raising a family. Former soldiers that keep their neko bodies may be recalled to the military in times of national crisis.

2. NH-29s naturally born as younglings to NH-29 mothers are allowed to keep their bodies but if they keep them they are eligible to be subject to a military draft in wartime.

I think for the sake of consistency, that the same policy we used for the NH-29 is used for the NH-33.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

I'm cool with that. But how does that work for civilianized Neko? Any differently?

 

[Gallant]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

According to Yamataian law;

"A Sapient Being, defined for the purposes of this bill as the result of an AI's self-realized or externally induced sapience, shall be considered a minor for purposes of citizenship and eligibility for military service until the passage of three years. The care of the Being shall be the responsibility of the sapience-inducing Entity, who shall claim the AI as a family member for the purpose of education and eventual citizenship. The owner, or parent, is thereafter responsible for the Being's education and welfare, and may be held accountable for maltreatment." - Proposal 93, Considerations for the Protection of Artificial Intelligence, Line II.

And,

"In the case of a Being which is determined by the creating Entity to be ready for citizenship, citizenship may be submitted for consideration prior to the three-year limit, with the added requirement of immediate military service. A Being which enters service in this manner is entitled to all the training and benefits afforded a Nekovalkyrja, as if it were created by the Star Army of Yamatai for that specific purpose. It may also assume a Nekovalkyrja body if it so chooses. - Proposal #93, Etc., line II.b.

As synthetic beings, Nekovalkyrja Younglings, as artificial intelligence created by their birthing party, are EITHER obligated to three years military service, or considered minors for three years and then may pursue their citizenship in the normal way, as detailed in other places of Yamataian law. Unless this is trumphed by military law - which the parents, and the younglings, no longer being deemed government property, would not be subject to - this is the present, most closely related statute of law.

All nekovalkyrja born naturally, therefore, are legally free of service obligation and forcing it upon them without the consent of their parents or guardian is a break from Yamataian civilian law, under which they hold certain civil rights.

According to the new constitution, however, the Empress could at any time inact a draft and designate these newly formed younglings as military property. Or, really, anyone she wanted to designate, really; as Imperial mandate holds the strength of law until overturned, this makes every single citizen irregardless of military or civilian status eligible for immediate draft assuming it should be required.

Military law and Imperial Edict have immediate precedence.

Happy to be of service.

 

[Nashoba]

Re: Do Nekovalkyrja younglings have to serve in the military

Gallant,

That would be true, if there were in fact such laws. As Wes has stated in the past if it isn't written down there is no such law.

SO the Empress has no power to issue edicts. It wasn't in the constitution,

And there is no such law in Star Army.

This came about during the IRC incident where a certain character had a number of bottles labeled with a person's face. We have no law against it written down, so its not illegal. Basically if you look at the laws we have, there is a whole lot of stuff that you can do that should be illegal.