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OOC Elysian Discussion
- Thread starter Wes
- Start date
I think that's a Faction Manager call, @Ira - and I've already made my decision.
I question that.
Only because there's an issue here with order. Chronological, that is.
Say Ira had spoken first, said Garts were compatible with Veks and Elysians. He'd have made an FM decision that's his call to make. That's by your logic.
You'd be powerless to stop him, also by your logic.
That can't stand. If two FMs are going to squabble over this, staff or Wes must make the call.
As staff, I'm doing the questioning. Your FM fiat here can't be allowed to jive just because you spoke first.
This issue has to be mediated between you two (or three), or it has to go to staff.
Only because there's an issue here with order. Chronological, that is.
Say Ira had spoken first, said Garts were compatible with Veks and Elysians. He'd have made an FM decision that's his call to make. That's by your logic.
You'd be powerless to stop him, also by your logic.
That can't stand. If two FMs are going to squabble over this, staff or Wes must make the call.
As staff, I'm doing the questioning. Your FM fiat here can't be allowed to jive just because you spoke first.
This issue has to be mediated between you two (or three), or it has to go to staff.
Is this a joke? No salt. I'm actually wondering.
Because the logic you are saying Frost is applying is not the logic that he is actually applying. Nor does what you've laid out make sense at all if we're going to use the word "logic."
FMs can say what they want about the genetic capabilities of species exclusive to their faction, especially in cases where nothing contradicts that ruling. That is what Frost seems to be doing.
Your example is one where an FM would be dictating the genetic capabilities of another faction's core species. That is entirely different than what Frost is doing and is not equivalent. It's the nonconsensual OOC invasion of another's domain.
Not even slightly a joke, and a lot more logical than you give it credit for.
However, I'll expound.
If Ira, as a faction manager, had said that his species is compatible with Elysians and Veks, he'd be expected to justify it. Just as Jaegerman is be expected to justify how the Elysians are incompatible with Veks and Garts.
The explanation doesn't have to be long, but it's got to be there.
More to your point: Saying "Sure, a Gart and an Elysian can have a kid together, you bet" isn't a single FM decision.
You're involving a species that's not your own in a question of what is possible in the roleplay. I.e. what players can do between each other. That's not something that's an internal discussion, falling only within the borders of your faction's RP.
A species crossbreeding explanation, just by virtue of having it, involves at least one other species. Minimum.
You don't get to do that by yourself because you're not just involving you.
And no, it's not the same as saying, "Elysians are stronger than Veks!" or "Veks can use their claws to tear apart an Anthedon." Those two statements shouldn't appear in wiki anyway, but if they did, they'd have to be discussed and justified. "Elysians can lift X pounds more than a Vekimen." "Veks claws are made of Aether."
This is why Jaegerman, as an FM, doesn't alone get to make this decision.
That does not mean he has a weak position.
It means that he doesn't get to declare it first and end the discussion.
Technically, the question could be raised about any species within SARP. Nekovalkyrja, the most commonly played race, happens to have its ish generally together. Nepleslians too.
However, I'll expound.
If Ira, as a faction manager, had said that his species is compatible with Elysians and Veks, he'd be expected to justify it. Just as Jaegerman is be expected to justify how the Elysians are incompatible with Veks and Garts.
The explanation doesn't have to be long, but it's got to be there.
More to your point: Saying "Sure, a Gart and an Elysian can have a kid together, you bet" isn't a single FM decision.
You're involving a species that's not your own in a question of what is possible in the roleplay. I.e. what players can do between each other. That's not something that's an internal discussion, falling only within the borders of your faction's RP.
A species crossbreeding explanation, just by virtue of having it, involves at least one other species. Minimum.
You don't get to do that by yourself because you're not just involving you.
And no, it's not the same as saying, "Elysians are stronger than Veks!" or "Veks can use their claws to tear apart an Anthedon." Those two statements shouldn't appear in wiki anyway, but if they did, they'd have to be discussed and justified. "Elysians can lift X pounds more than a Vekimen." "Veks claws are made of Aether."
This is why Jaegerman, as an FM, doesn't alone get to make this decision.
That does not mean he has a weak position.
It means that he doesn't get to declare it first and end the discussion.
Technically, the question could be raised about any species within SARP. Nekovalkyrja, the most commonly played race, happens to have its ish generally together. Nepleslians too.
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Ethereal
Banned Member
It's a simple logical rule that scenarios that can potentially negatively affect the status of anything where people have equal say in the decision cannot be made without unilateral consent.
The path of least change and preservation must be taken in scenarios where people can't decide things but hold equal power - if Ira does in this case as Doshii appears to be saying.
This is the reason we need unilateral consent to do things IRL like fire nukes or start a war. It's also the reason why laws are passed between government bodies and can be thrown out unless it has unilateral consent between the branches of government. The path of conservation is always the best in cases of equal decision making power in all parties.
Unless people can decide unilaterally that something should happen the default status is that it doesn't. It doesn't matter even if Ira and Frost are equal power in this scenario - the least destructive path is of conservatism which is saying no to half-breeds because of the damage that could potentially cause and we know the presence of none of not harmful as it's never been detrimental not to have these abominations as has been the case until now - until they find a middle ground.
The path of least change and preservation must be taken in scenarios where people can't decide things but hold equal power - if Ira does in this case as Doshii appears to be saying.
This is the reason we need unilateral consent to do things IRL like fire nukes or start a war. It's also the reason why laws are passed between government bodies and can be thrown out unless it has unilateral consent between the branches of government. The path of conservation is always the best in cases of equal decision making power in all parties.
Unless people can decide unilaterally that something should happen the default status is that it doesn't. It doesn't matter even if Ira and Frost are equal power in this scenario - the least destructive path is of conservatism which is saying no to half-breeds because of the damage that could potentially cause and we know the presence of none of not harmful as it's never been detrimental not to have these abominations as has been the case until now - until they find a middle ground.
Fred
Retired Staff
I see debate, but no definitive answer. Here is one and how we are going to work with this:
You want to make a decision involving two species based on their nature? Then both FMs have to agree. If they don't, you don't play ball. It's as simple as that.
All the cards are not just in Frostjaeger's camp on this, though. @Wes created the Elysians: he gets to weight in for the Archangels and Plebians. That's his call as creator of those species, regardless of in whom's FM's hands they are in. I've seen Elysian FMs come and go, but the species' creator is still here on the site and he's active, so, we will defer to him. However, Zakalwe - one of the earlier Elysian FMs - created the Caelisolans. That is under Elysian FM purview. That, Frostjaeger does have final word on. So, if it's between Edto and Frostjaeger deciding if the Caelisolan body has compatibility, then the current Elysian FM should be able to veto this.
There would be one exception to this, but it's only regarding antagonistic species. For example: Mishhu tentacle stingers paralyze, nekos still drop like flies when stung despite supposed resistance/immunities to toxins. When a Game Master is employing a creature as advertised and leapfrog the "go through the FM" process. That can be sorted out later, treated as an exception, or handwaved as artifice. This exception does not apply to a playable species, which the Vekimen are.
You want to make a decision involving two species based on their nature? Then both FMs have to agree. If they don't, you don't play ball. It's as simple as that.
All the cards are not just in Frostjaeger's camp on this, though. @Wes created the Elysians: he gets to weight in for the Archangels and Plebians. That's his call as creator of those species, regardless of in whom's FM's hands they are in. I've seen Elysian FMs come and go, but the species' creator is still here on the site and he's active, so, we will defer to him. However, Zakalwe - one of the earlier Elysian FMs - created the Caelisolans. That is under Elysian FM purview. That, Frostjaeger does have final word on. So, if it's between Edto and Frostjaeger deciding if the Caelisolan body has compatibility, then the current Elysian FM should be able to veto this.
There would be one exception to this, but it's only regarding antagonistic species. For example: Mishhu tentacle stingers paralyze, nekos still drop like flies when stung despite supposed resistance/immunities to toxins. When a Game Master is employing a creature as advertised and leapfrog the "go through the FM" process. That can be sorted out later, treated as an exception, or handwaved as artifice. This exception does not apply to a playable species, which the Vekimen are.
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CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
Wait @Fred , I thought Wes said the Vek are not actually an official playable species? Edto doesn't have an FM banner for that reason if I recall correctly. Though Edto does play his own species to try and promote them, I was under the impression that they fall into the same category as the Mishhuvurthyar and Rixxikor.
Syaoran
Retired Staff
I don't think the Vek fall under the 'antagonist' tag. Because they're not part of an antagonist faction. Yes teh Vek might not be a full fledged faction, that's still different from Antagonist. Antagonist are allowed certain privledges because they have to be threatening and hold up against the PC factions. Edto's Vek are a full player species, and he has 'FM rights' over them (probably because we don't have a 'Species manage' tag) they just don't have their own 'faction', they're part of Asteria from my understanding.
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
IC, they're actually closer allies with the Gartagens and get more benefits from them IIRC. Additionally, we're already using them as an antagonist force in Asteria; in order to keep their secret and contain a rogue's spread, government agents are killing the offspring. Yesterday, Wes remarked that the Vekimen have the potential to be a greater threat than the Rixx on Discord, but right now, the greatest obstacle preventing them from being a huge threat is their numbers. RP has not built the main group, or splinter/rouge groups up enough yet. That's why Asteria is in disease/plague control mode. Honestly, I think the Kuvexians would use them instead of the Rixx in a heartbeat if they knew.
Before eventually being turned on, overthrown and replaced as big-bads of course.
EDIT: For now though everyone, the conversation is being carried out in a group PM with staff - let's wait and see what they decide on.
Before eventually being turned on, overthrown and replaced as big-bads of course.
EDIT: For now though everyone, the conversation is being carried out in a group PM with staff - let's wait and see what they decide on.
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Rizzo
Well-Known Member
An Avian/mammal and reptilian hybrid...
I don't know about you guys but a space dragon is far too dangerous to bring about. I point to historical documents to prove this, like Eragon, Reign of Fire, and How to Train your Dragon as evidence of the danger this unusual mating session will create.
Seriously though, I don't believe reptiles can interbreed with mammalian or avian species due to incompatible genetic differences. At least I've never heard of such a thing being done.
I don't know about you guys but a space dragon is far too dangerous to bring about. I point to historical documents to prove this, like Eragon, Reign of Fire, and How to Train your Dragon as evidence of the danger this unusual mating session will create.
Seriously though, I don't believe reptiles can interbreed with mammalian or avian species due to incompatible genetic differences. At least I've never heard of such a thing being done.
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
From what I can tell, it was being explored through RP and the wiki was updated to reflect the events and discoveries, but was reverted some time ago without the author knowing. Prior to the discovery of the edit, new updates have been made since then, and it's only within the last few days that the author noticed the info was gone. It's going to be a mess to find the lost revision and restore what was vandalized. That aside, you're correct that this is an issue of immunity as well as story and roleplay.
Addressing the elephant in the room though, the fact of the matter is that nobody is going to just RP this stuff happening to Elysians in the same way that nobody is going to RP the Mishhu doing their stuff to them. Without consent from players, RP of that nature just doesn't happen. The species simply needs the ability in theory so that it not only helps to define them as seriously bad guys, but also to give our characters something to fear, and for us to RP our characters fearing.
Not having bad guys being able to and wanting to do bad things is, ironically, bad.
Addressing the elephant in the room though, the fact of the matter is that nobody is going to just RP this stuff happening to Elysians in the same way that nobody is going to RP the Mishhu doing their stuff to them. Without consent from players, RP of that nature just doesn't happen. The species simply needs the ability in theory so that it not only helps to define them as seriously bad guys, but also to give our characters something to fear, and for us to RP our characters fearing.
Not having bad guys being able to and wanting to do bad things is, ironically, bad.
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