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Mecha in SAoY
- Thread starter ShotJon
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Syaoran
Retired Staff
@Nightowl because this is a topic about -mecha-. So why would a topic supporting Mecha say "Oh we don't need mecha if we do this." You can do that with just about anything, gunship included. But this topic is about how to get more mecha into SARP and SAoY. Not about how to get a gunship in. So it'd be nice if everyone stopped talking gunship here and went back to Mecha. That's very rude to the topic creator to have derailed and started talking about something else.
Fred
Retired Staff
Nightowl is new. Be lenient. Just move on.
We've established that the Star Army of Yamatai may prefer their mecha on the smaller scale - 3 to 5 meters, roughly. Aendri gave an example of a pilot area where the torso housed the pilot standing, with the head visible through a small canopy. We know the Keiko's convoluted torso is actually mostly a cockpit. The approach I took with the Akuma was to go full VR immersion for the neko operator, so that once the neko pilot boards the machine, she's only taking a minimal amount of space due to being balled up in fetal position.
If you want to keep the machine small and maximize how much gear you can carry for its size, I'm inclined to think the balled up position is best for that. Nekos have SPINE and don't need hands to pilot the machine (think Guld and his mentally-operated Valkyrie in Macross Plus). The drawback is that emoting within the piloting cavity is practically impossible; it's dark and there's just no room (Kotori could just barely bring a sword and some rations with her in her machine). It also has the disadvantage of barely being a single seater, so, no passenger capacity unless someone likes to be carried in mechanical claws.
We've established that the Star Army of Yamatai may prefer their mecha on the smaller scale - 3 to 5 meters, roughly. Aendri gave an example of a pilot area where the torso housed the pilot standing, with the head visible through a small canopy. We know the Keiko's convoluted torso is actually mostly a cockpit. The approach I took with the Akuma was to go full VR immersion for the neko operator, so that once the neko pilot boards the machine, she's only taking a minimal amount of space due to being balled up in fetal position.
If you want to keep the machine small and maximize how much gear you can carry for its size, I'm inclined to think the balled up position is best for that. Nekos have SPINE and don't need hands to pilot the machine (think Guld and his mentally-operated Valkyrie in Macross Plus). The drawback is that emoting within the piloting cavity is practically impossible; it's dark and there's just no room (Kotori could just barely bring a sword and some rations with her in her machine). It also has the disadvantage of barely being a single seater, so, no passenger capacity unless someone likes to be carried in mechanical claws.
You think I'm still on gunship, though I have to admit that it is a side topic. My point was that your mecha would simply be used as fire support as well, just one hidden in the hills. How different is that from calling in orbital fire support? Or gunship support? It's just a lot of firepower on legs as opposed to lots of firepower on anti-gravity or even lots of firepower on tracks which is called a "tank". "Mecha" is just a big mobility device. Hell, if you can make PA strong enough or a weapon powerful enough, you can even get a man sized artillery unit. Remember, the only thing stopping a Daisy from using a Mindy's Positron or Aether cannon is plot nerf in atmosphere.
In the end though, it is up to the GM to decide if mecha is suitable for his scenarios or settings.
In the end though, it is up to the GM to decide if mecha is suitable for his scenarios or settings.
Fred
Retired Staff
Nonuseage of positron in the atmosphere is not plot nerf, it's simple sense of self-preservation. 
The Monster from Macross is pretty much a giant walking (barely) tank with tons of cannons. That need is regardless already filled by the Tasha. So, to have mecha around to support infantry is already something the Star Army has. It's just not very prevalent in GM narrative.
Which does not bring us to very little despite all this conversation since we've come full circle. Whee.
The Monster from Macross is pretty much a giant walking (barely) tank with tons of cannons. That need is regardless already filled by the Tasha. So, to have mecha around to support infantry is already something the Star Army has. It's just not very prevalent in GM narrative.
Which does not bring us to very little despite all this conversation since we've come full circle. Whee.
Syaoran
Retired Staff
I agree with you Fred that balled up cockpit would give it a distinctly Yamatai feel too. So basing the mecha off that would probably be good. And since it's going to help a support role in SAoY anyway, I don't think it being a 1 seater would be that much of a problem. As for carrying stuff, we could put in a a small locker somewhere with all the saved space. I can't say much for lack of movement though, I don't know how SPINE effects your senses while using it. So I don't know if they're getting stimuli from both themselves and the KEIKO. Minkan can use SPINE too so that would work out for everyone.
Also the reasonf or Mecha in SAoY would be for when you can't use orbital fire or a gunship Nightowl, either strategically or logistically. And while in other nations it might be a focus, it is a supporter in SAoY. So yes it serves a similar role to a tank or gunship, but it'st still different. And no matter what you do, a PA can't carry as much fire power as a mecha, simply because of size differences.
Also the reasonf or Mecha in SAoY would be for when you can't use orbital fire or a gunship Nightowl, either strategically or logistically. And while in other nations it might be a focus, it is a supporter in SAoY. So yes it serves a similar role to a tank or gunship, but it'st still different. And no matter what you do, a PA can't carry as much fire power as a mecha, simply because of size differences.
Nonuseage of positron in the atmosphere is not plot nerf, it's simple sense of self-preservation.
Good point. "Infantryman shoots off his own foot. And half the continent."
Oops.
I still think the idea of a first-strike survival second-strike return occupation platform for creating an opening for planetary assault is a niche that could really break the back of a lot of worlds.
Now all you need is a dispersed aetheric ballistic FTL missile system that sits pretending to be wreckage on the edge of FTL deadzones that splits off to overwhelm system defenses with sheer numbers using decoys and clever statistical planning,.
Now all you need is a dispersed aetheric ballistic FTL missile system that sits pretending to be wreckage on the edge of FTL deadzones that splits off to overwhelm system defenses with sheer numbers using decoys and clever statistical planning,.
I guess the crux of the issue, when it comes to mecha, is the question "Why walk with legs, when you can fly?" Since Yamatai has some of the best anti-grav technology around, weight is not a limiting factor.
This essentially means for any set of guns, armor, etc, that you can put on a set of mecha legs, you can put something even heavier on an anti-grav chassis. So is it still a mecha if it doesn't have arms or legs?
But I'm thinking of a legged mecha - similar to Nekovalkyrja, they walk when they want to move around normally, and they fly when they want to move around quickly. The Star Army's mecha would be the same way.
This essentially means for any set of guns, armor, etc, that you can put on a set of mecha legs, you can put something even heavier on an anti-grav chassis. So is it still a mecha if it doesn't have arms or legs?
But I'm thinking of a legged mecha - similar to Nekovalkyrja, they walk when they want to move around normally, and they fly when they want to move around quickly. The Star Army's mecha would be the same way.
Fred
Retired Staff
Well, there are sensors that can detect changes in gravity. Nekovalkyrja gravity control falls under that purview.
The mecha could have another means of locomotion simply because alternatives are good. Or, because there are caveats.
I know, for the Himiko Refit, that the gravimetric barrier that can contribute to defend it is part of the gravimetric drives' function. If the bridge staff means to have the vessel do a sublight jump mid-combat, it means compromising defense in favor of mobility. Personally, I like that element; it makes for balanced decisions and offers counter-play.
Just like, when I have a power armor using its stealth, that it's barrier isn't online. The M7 SARAH my rogue-samurai use is extremely powerful, but it's one of the periods where it is at its most vulnerable, which can potentially reward PCs that manage to outwit them.
I'm sure we could argue in that power armors today can fly and have thier shielding... but a lot of things in SARP still suffer from the Ayenee days, where the content of our setting had to trump everything else so everything was simply made 'better'. So far, though, only inconsistencies have emerged from that more than anything else. Of course, you needn't agree with me: I've always planned to lead by example on that notion. If something I do as a GM works splendidly, then I can make a better case for it.
The mecha could have another means of locomotion simply because alternatives are good. Or, because there are caveats.
I know, for the Himiko Refit, that the gravimetric barrier that can contribute to defend it is part of the gravimetric drives' function. If the bridge staff means to have the vessel do a sublight jump mid-combat, it means compromising defense in favor of mobility. Personally, I like that element; it makes for balanced decisions and offers counter-play.
Just like, when I have a power armor using its stealth, that it's barrier isn't online. The M7 SARAH my rogue-samurai use is extremely powerful, but it's one of the periods where it is at its most vulnerable, which can potentially reward PCs that manage to outwit them.
I'm sure we could argue in that power armors today can fly and have thier shielding... but a lot of things in SARP still suffer from the Ayenee days, where the content of our setting had to trump everything else so everything was simply made 'better'. So far, though, only inconsistencies have emerged from that more than anything else. Of course, you needn't agree with me: I've always planned to lead by example on that notion. If something I do as a GM works splendidly, then I can make a better case for it.
Syaoran
Retired Staff
A mecha is still a mecha if it's missing arms or legs, but if it's missing arms -and- legs it simply becomes a vehicle. But there are benefits to having both when you think about it strategically. Arms are almost hands down the best 'turret' you can make on a machine(provided you give the arms a decent range of movement) And legs, the provide movement without increasing the machine's detection profile 'cept for 'noise'(which just about any option will give) and 'seismic activity' do to a large mass moving. So yeah like Fred said on that, you can detect anti-grav, but you can't pull out a scanner to see if there are legs running about. Also just because it has legs doesn't mean it can't have an antigrav system as well.
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
...things like this whole thread being horrifically derailed is why I went off to Skyrim to take a break.
Fred's pointed out what I've been trying to say; sometimes, you either are unable, or really can't have starship or gunship support. With starships, they might be fighting other starships. With gunships, there might be enemy fighters around, or their graviton signature is too huge and attracts all the Triple-A. Meanwhile, the TASHA still might not be enough firepower, and a tank can literally get jumped and shanked in urban areas. Bottom line, shit happens, meaning you got to be prepared. That's why humanoid vehicle designs have a role in sci-fi settings. Hiding amongst buildings like extra-large infantry, it's much harder to detect than a gunship or hovertank, and can even ruin another AFV's day by jumping it with a blade, on top of whatever it can already do with its ranged weapons. So frames and mechs in Star Army, oh my!
If you guys want to talk about gunships and various concepts for them, please start another thread - I'll even join in on the conversation since there's a lot to say. But not here. This thread's for Frames and Mechs.
At this point, the key thing to ask is what kind of mech or frame the SAoY would like? Fred prefers the 3 meter class, while I prefer the 6 meter class. He prefers the fetal pod, while I prefer the conventional cockpit; emoting and even snacking while in combat is important. It supports the war effort. And yes, I believe it should have an anti-grav system as well as thruster system for flight; it won't be the primary means of moving, but it's important to have anyways. What else can we narrow down about the design? Do we go for a hemosynthetic basis and have it basically be an Evangelion style NIWS inside, or do we go for servomotors? I prefer the former, for the record.
Fred's pointed out what I've been trying to say; sometimes, you either are unable, or really can't have starship or gunship support. With starships, they might be fighting other starships. With gunships, there might be enemy fighters around, or their graviton signature is too huge and attracts all the Triple-A. Meanwhile, the TASHA still might not be enough firepower, and a tank can literally get jumped and shanked in urban areas. Bottom line, shit happens, meaning you got to be prepared. That's why humanoid vehicle designs have a role in sci-fi settings. Hiding amongst buildings like extra-large infantry, it's much harder to detect than a gunship or hovertank, and can even ruin another AFV's day by jumping it with a blade, on top of whatever it can already do with its ranged weapons. So frames and mechs in Star Army, oh my!
If you guys want to talk about gunships and various concepts for them, please start another thread - I'll even join in on the conversation since there's a lot to say. But not here. This thread's for Frames and Mechs.
At this point, the key thing to ask is what kind of mech or frame the SAoY would like? Fred prefers the 3 meter class, while I prefer the 6 meter class. He prefers the fetal pod, while I prefer the conventional cockpit; emoting and even snacking while in combat is important. It supports the war effort. And yes, I believe it should have an anti-grav system as well as thruster system for flight; it won't be the primary means of moving, but it's important to have anyways. What else can we narrow down about the design? Do we go for a hemosynthetic basis and have it basically be an Evangelion style NIWS inside, or do we go for servomotors? I prefer the former, for the record.
Fun fact: If the spine isn't straight when you endure an impact shock of deceleration, the statistical likelihood of severe spinal damage is anywhere between 4 to 7 times greater, as cited by the CDC and an assessment of 147 UFC matches. Its purpose is to protect the brain and vital organs... Even at the cost of paralysis. Worse? The high strain of the muscle hardening to do said protecting in holding said position can cause muscle catabolism comparable to bed-sores.
In simple terms? Pilots in fetal positions are going to need crew on station to pull them out of the cockpit after the mission. They would also almost always require immediate medical attention, even after a routine mission.
My ideal cockpit is somewhere between the two: A sort of molded coffin that has moving parts for the arms, access to hand-controls, shock-baring structures and a reasonably relaxed position. The cockpit has a helmet enclosure, but the whole torso can be expanded like a bubble and hands brought to access the face and torso, similar to a conventional torso outside of sortie conditions and then retracted back for a smaller target profile.
Also, NIWS? National Institute of Water Sports (yes this is a thing).
A humanoid shape, or even a limbed shape has a lot of advantages *and* disadvantages over a singular hulled shape.
+Instant balance correction, ideal for high speed maneuvering
+High impact landing gear
+All terrain purchase
+All incline purchase
+All surface purchase
+Climbing
+Posture change
+Height adjustment
+Prone capability
+Dual off-bore firing
+Live weapons exchange
+Artillery management functions
+Fall tolorance
+Impact tolerance
+Self-righting
+Melee capability
+Object manipulation and logistics capabilities
+Inherent intuitive form in some cases
+Psychological intimidation as terror weapon
+Many surfaces for a wide variety of mounting options
+Can still retain conventional movement capabilities
+Intuitive motion through urban spaces
+Intuitive motion through woodland spaces
+Often flight capable
+Full Propulsion powerplant & outlet movement & vectoring for rapid directional change
+Variable aerodynamics (like a sky-diver)
And the minuses? Well, most of you already know all of those :3
In simple terms? Pilots in fetal positions are going to need crew on station to pull them out of the cockpit after the mission. They would also almost always require immediate medical attention, even after a routine mission.
My ideal cockpit is somewhere between the two: A sort of molded coffin that has moving parts for the arms, access to hand-controls, shock-baring structures and a reasonably relaxed position. The cockpit has a helmet enclosure, but the whole torso can be expanded like a bubble and hands brought to access the face and torso, similar to a conventional torso outside of sortie conditions and then retracted back for a smaller target profile.
Also, NIWS? National Institute of Water Sports (yes this is a thing).
A humanoid shape, or even a limbed shape has a lot of advantages *and* disadvantages over a singular hulled shape.
+Instant balance correction, ideal for high speed maneuvering
+High impact landing gear
+All terrain purchase
+All incline purchase
+All surface purchase
+Climbing
+Posture change
+Height adjustment
+Prone capability
+Dual off-bore firing
+Live weapons exchange
+Artillery management functions
+Fall tolorance
+Impact tolerance
+Self-righting
+Melee capability
+Object manipulation and logistics capabilities
+Inherent intuitive form in some cases
+Psychological intimidation as terror weapon
+Many surfaces for a wide variety of mounting options
+Can still retain conventional movement capabilities
+Intuitive motion through urban spaces
+Intuitive motion through woodland spaces
+Often flight capable
+Full Propulsion powerplant & outlet movement & vectoring for rapid directional change
+Variable aerodynamics (like a sky-diver)
And the minuses? Well, most of you already know all of those :3
Fred
Retired Staff
NIWS: Nodal Integrated Weapon System.
I didn't say I prefered.
Fetal position in a small mecha just makes sense if you want to save space in a not-so-large unit. The whole "I am a neko but when I use my SPINE interface, I am the vehicle I operate" schtick works with the idea that you don't actually need to have your limbs in the machine's limbs to function (a fact demonstrated by most miniature nekos in the Lamia and Sylph II).
I know very well that one weakness of that concept is 'emoting' in the 'control cavity'. All you can get is a volumetric window in your face... otherwise, you're stuck needing to get out to do gestures. But hey, that's the same with power armored infantry: you see them gesticulating, pointing, turning their heads while fully garbed... so why wouldn't a neko be able to do the same thing with something larger. It certainly works with the Transformers from Micheal Bay's movies.
But flaws make things what they are... but it also explains why you don't see the Akuma being more widespread past the two units built. Osaka has a compelling point with shock absorbance, and why the Keiko is simply a better concept for that scale of mecha anyways. Part of me thinks I could shrug off that notion by the characters involved being nekos, and neko recuperative abilities being better than humans. Another part thinks it'd be cool to have nekos gingerly slide out of thier machines feeling sore (even though the immersion at the time left them not cognizant of the discomfort).
Again, the Akuma was a better antagonist than anything else. It was a boss encounter for a team of power armor. I thought the concept had merit when it occured to me, but it needs to be nothing more than a concept.
I didn't say I prefered.
Fetal position in a small mecha just makes sense if you want to save space in a not-so-large unit. The whole "I am a neko but when I use my SPINE interface, I am the vehicle I operate" schtick works with the idea that you don't actually need to have your limbs in the machine's limbs to function (a fact demonstrated by most miniature nekos in the Lamia and Sylph II).
I know very well that one weakness of that concept is 'emoting' in the 'control cavity'. All you can get is a volumetric window in your face... otherwise, you're stuck needing to get out to do gestures. But hey, that's the same with power armored infantry: you see them gesticulating, pointing, turning their heads while fully garbed... so why wouldn't a neko be able to do the same thing with something larger. It certainly works with the Transformers from Micheal Bay's movies.
But flaws make things what they are... but it also explains why you don't see the Akuma being more widespread past the two units built. Osaka has a compelling point with shock absorbance, and why the Keiko is simply a better concept for that scale of mecha anyways. Part of me thinks I could shrug off that notion by the characters involved being nekos, and neko recuperative abilities being better than humans. Another part thinks it'd be cool to have nekos gingerly slide out of thier machines feeling sore (even though the immersion at the time left them not cognizant of the discomfort).
Again, the Akuma was a better antagonist than anything else. It was a boss encounter for a team of power armor. I thought the concept had merit when it occured to me, but it needs to be nothing more than a concept.
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