Mecha in SAoY

[Nightowl]

But..but.. I didn't inhale!

 

[ShotJon]

Heyo it is you goold neighbourhood ShotJon again. THIS IS A THREAD FOR MECHA. I am all up for discussion but take it elsewhere. Make a thread with "problem of sentients in giant robots" and tag whoever you want there. Don't take it here. We are getting sidetracked again.

 

[Nashoba]

Actually Shotjon, the discussion of whether or not to put a physical person is germane to the discourse. Because that will ultimately affect the design of said mecha's and how they are used by the SAOY and the roleplay aspects.

 

[OsakanOne]

I thought I said everything that needed to be said on this issue two pages ago?

 

[Wes]

I don't see any legal or ethical difference between a mind in a fleshy humanoid body, a mishhu body, or a mind in a robot body--of human or mecha size. It's the consciousness that is important. It's entirely possible for soldiers to switch their "morph" Eclipse Phase style.

There was even a Nepleslian plot about putting human minds in robot soldier bodies a while back.

 

[OsakanOne]

It basically boils down to being able to punish the mind for an act which is bad. Either you upload and the original person never did it and you're condemning a copy (which is very difficult to enforce and defeats the point) or you transplant the intelligence at which point ... actually yeah, that makes more sense, though not being able to disembark and having the machine as their body is tricky if anything should ever go wrong.

In its own way maybe being trapped in a mechanical body is torture in and of itself. No sensuality, no sensation, none of life's instinctual and simple pleasures... Being in a machine like that could be INCREDIBLY unnerving, long-term. Imagine, never feeling anything again. You'd go nuts from the lack of simple stimulation. Hell, Robocop 2, mang.

 

[ShotJon]

I disagree. Mind in mecha is failry useless OOC wise since in SAoY there are also geshrin and nepleslia players in SAoY. So basically for our mecha moving psyche into the mecha is fairly useless. We can work around the SPINE thing with a collar that alllows neps and gesh to work the mecha easy, but moving the mind into the robot for controlling is is not part of SAoY at the moment.

 

[Fred]

I just wanted to say that after that post Shotjon made once he was back from his weekend that I've been largely disenchanted with it and don't really want to contribute anymore. I'll agree that some talk about favoring vehicles over mechas was somewhat derivative, but seeing Shotjon verbally stomp this thread twice to brute force it into a direction relevant to his likes makes me think it's more for his idealized idea of what SARP ought to be than for everyone.

I, for one, echo the Nashoba's sentiment that the cockpit discussion was very relevant. The Star Army of Yamatai is a spacefaring armada and things in space have one notable limitation which is that interior room is generally on a premium (and this is why the Mark I Sylph failed to suit the military it was designed to support - logistics weren't taken into account). Power Armor are small, potent for their size... and more importantly can fit through doorways. Most environment an adult person can go in, they can (except crawlspaces).

But, I don't care anymore.

 

[CadetNewb]

Let's be fair; the thread had derailed a few times, and it's easy to mistake something relevant for another derailment. I agree with Nashoba though; whether or not the mech or frame will have a pilot will dictate how the rest of it will go. It has benefits, but also drawbacks in that it may negatively impact roleplay. On the other hand, if pulled off well, it could actually add to roleplay like it did in Eclipse Phase. The choice of whether or not the SAoY will use pilots or ST them into the hemosynth itself is up to Wes, as is even the decision of whether or not the SAoY will have frames. I feel that if it's there, players can RP it and GMs can use it, but if it isn't, then they simply can't. And even if it's there and not liked, and therefore not used, nothing is lost either. Assuming it's just an article.

In regards to doorways, I feel that really isn't the role of Frames and Mechs at all. During urban warfare, the PA would be the ones storming buildings, while tanks and frames would be in the streets; they'd keep those clear, and demolish the building if resistance is too much. Not go inside.

 

[Amaryllis]

Well I was Skyping Shotty while he was making the post and he said he was drunk but anyway, I can see why he'd be frustrated. Thinking a person should be inside a mecha is a given seems pretty natural to me. How many times have we used remote controlled things like this with our characters? All I know of are power armor, mecha/frames, tanks and spaceships that all have people in them. Sure you could use remote control or something but has it even been done before in the setting as a standard procedure? How much have we had player characters use drones that weren't the little things PAs carry around? When I think mecha I think person in a robot. When I think robot remote controlled I think giant robot.

I always remember people saying things like not having a person inside something would kill excitement and create detachment. Do we somehow think we won't run into the same problem this time?

I also can't blame ShotJon if when he thinks mecha he thinks giant humanoid robot and generally only giant humanoid robot as I think that's how a lot of people see mecha. So if he feels talk of transforming into a gunship is taking things in an off topic direction I find that reasonable.

Also, what's wrong with making threads for yourself?
Looking through this thread I basically just see two things being stated:
1. You can make new equipment with whatever role you want based on stylistic preference as people are interested in more than one type of answer to a need and multiple needs are seen
2. You can make it look however you want based on the style/image you're going for as we have the tech to build flexible tentacled stuff like Osaka suggested or something rigid and hard looking like Wes' picture of a Robocop robot

The thread is 8 pages long and yet there doesn't seem to be much straightforward progress.

 

[Reynolds]

If we are not going to talk about it, suggest things and discuss problems or questions that might arise later, then what is this thread for?

If ShotJon wants to see more mechs in Yamatai and they don't want input or people attempting to insert what they think of as mecha, or to say why they don't think mecha will work, then they probably need to create an article for a mecha that fits their desires and gives them exactly what they want and submit it. Right?

 

[Amaryllis]

I never said what you're seeming to imply and I doubt ShotJon is really trying to be that inflexible.
You can always just ignore him. It's not like he's going to demand this thread be closed.
Meeting hard language with hard language isn't likely to have a positive result so I think he's pretty much done with this thread. You guys might as well carry on however you want.

Shotty having a certain sort of image(s) in mind and not laying it out clearly and thoroughly in a single post and complaining about things moving away from that image isn't the same as him saying you can't discuss anything or only what he wants. You could just ask him to clarify what he wants to discuss.

 

[ShotJon]

If I hurt anyone's feeling I apologise. I started this thread because it was something that is a bit important to me and I feel it could give more things to play with for all SAoY players. There was discussion and it keeps going and going and goin. I started to feel like it was getting nowhere so I tried to push for some decisions. My seconds brush off was a bit off I agree, but I still think it had some point even if it was said in crude way.

I also do believe that idea of humanoid mecha that can fly is fairly flexible thing that people can play with and give it their own playstyle. Also who said that there won't be more then one mecha. But that is for possible future. Right now, we are trying to come up with a mecha that @Wes would be comfortable including into SAoY (At least such is my belief) and from what Wes said, he basically just wants something that can fly and give airsupport as well as provide ground support. Sure flying mecha will never chase after fighers, but then neither could a gunships and I do not think it matters all that much if whatever is in the air has shape of a box or humanoid. It still has gun and it can still fire them. Actually the humanoid I think has more advantage, since it can land and run around and hide, take cover, peek corner and what not.

 

[OsakanOne]

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way: Instead of a frame being a "hero" character in terms of assets, why not use it as support? Like... A scaffold bolting onto the back of a PA with bigger shield generators, bigger engines and better weapons -- like a ballistic delivery system to GET the PA to the other starship and improve its survivability. Its scaffold-esque design means you could fold it down once inside into a robot or a walker that can fit through hallways -- again, in a supportive role. I can see it going from large and bipedal to something almost like a big metal tiger with guns on its back... Or like... Try to imagine a human torso suspended at ordinary height with legs running from its shoulders that are super long, and then its arms begin at its hips, so it can hunker down really well and doesn't sacrifice its stride length in enclosed quarters...

idk. This is actually an interesting design challenge. We'd need some constraints to really get this moving. I can see it being something that once in-doors purges a shit ton of its armor plating like a flutter of burning sakura leaves to fit inside.. When it has the plating, it looks kinda beefy, like most frames in SARP do *looking* like it could go toe to toe, but it has a lot of thin structures that fold neatly into smaller ones (a bit like TARS from Interstellar being very simple rod shapes -- this would be composed of similarly simple geometry)... Or it can re-order the plating to cover the hull it has just entered. In that way, I guess it doubles both as a fire-support drone inside or if you leave it there, as a fast-escape mechanism since you could probably fit a beefy FTL drive inside it. Could also play pack-horse, too...

 

[Syaoran]

We're not really talking about PA attachment frames though, we're trying to come up with a design for a full Mecha. We already have some guidelines for what we are working with though, it seems we're talking less than 10 meters(preferably less than 8) but more than 3 meter. Not not a deal break, we should probably avoid transformation on the design of the first one, since we can give flight to even a humanoid shape with the tech available. In terms of usage it'll be for supporting infantry when for whatever reason fighters and orbital bombardment are not an option. Of course it's going to have to have better armor and fire power than a PA or having it would be useless. And lastly it has to be able to adapt to the battle field it's being deployed in.

@ShotJon is that kinda what you were looking for? Tell me if anything's wrong there.

 

[Wes]

I guess what I think would work for the Star Army is something like this:



It flies but it has legs and can walk around. It's got heavy armor and a lot of weapons. It has a cockpit a person can go inside.

 

[Syaoran]

A design like that probably is better for SAoY. Since that'll give it a different feel from the Gekido, and it still has arms and legs, which are honestly very useful.

 

[OsakanOne]

So that ED209 look... I figure in flight, the legs fold back to be better aerodynamically, sort of like the tail on a helicopter.

Reminds me a bit of Metal Gear Rex. From the sounds of things, it would have weapons-pods like ED209 up front and the main cannons toward the back.

Do you know the exact performance niche you'd want this thing to fit, Wes?


On an unrelated note, your Roiquonmi Glaug evolved to become the Variable Glaug which is transformable.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I guess what I think would work for the Star Army is something like this:

View attachment 1422

It flies but it has legs and can walk around. It's got heavy armor and a lot of weapons. It has a cockpit a person can go inside.

That's the Valkyrie without the F-14 and hands. Which is great, but it also means we could have a place to start.

 

[Reynolds]

"He mentioned something interesting. Star Army is pursuing new research. He claims that what they're doing on Yamatai is 'the missing piece'. A weapon... to surpass Metal Gear."