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Mecha in SAoY
- Thread starter ShotJon
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We have power armor modeled after Bubblegum Crisis. If you want a Yamataian mecha, why not use the K-12 or the motoslave?
CadetNewb
Well-Known Member
Minds aren't DL'd into suits and platforms because it's simply too inhuman, as practical as it is. Just because of that, it'd be out of the question for many players. As for the K-12/K-Suit, I dunno. Depending on where you go, where it be original Bubblegum, 2040 or AD Police, it varies.
That's obviously the AD Police Version, but just by going off the scale, they'd occupy a similar role to the Keiko, which I suspect hasn't received all that much attention since it's still using standard issue gear. Gear that's designed for a class of Medium/Light PA. Not stuff that's more suited to the job that it'd be called on to do.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the K-Series are all a lot more Nepleslian in asthetics, but the concept of a frame of the same size shouldn't be tossed out the window. IIRC, the original version of the K-Suit was more inline with the Aggressor in size, with the thing being roughly 4 meters. Those Sex-Bots and their stolen prototype really gave Leon and his K-Suit a hard time.
That's obviously the AD Police Version, but just by going off the scale, they'd occupy a similar role to the Keiko, which I suspect hasn't received all that much attention since it's still using standard issue gear. Gear that's designed for a class of Medium/Light PA. Not stuff that's more suited to the job that it'd be called on to do.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the K-Series are all a lot more Nepleslian in asthetics, but the concept of a frame of the same size shouldn't be tossed out the window. IIRC, the original version of the K-Suit was more inline with the Aggressor in size, with the thing being roughly 4 meters. Those Sex-Bots and their stolen prototype really gave Leon and his K-Suit a hard time.
Reynolds
Well-Known Member
Combining this with Wes mentioning the Keiko...my character using one wondered why they didn't just upload her memories into one of them next time she lost her body, as it would be way more efficient than making her a body just to stick it inside the Keiko. I'm sure at least a few people, Neko in particular, would be up for it.
You'd have to run the later version of the K-suit, clean it up for Yamataian aesthetics. I still like an updated, enlarged motoslave-like unit. Use an armored pilot, it let the AI run the thing. All done.Minds aren't DL'd into suits and platforms because it's simply too inhuman, as practical as it is. Just because of that, it'd be out of the question for many players. As for the K-12/K-Suit, I dunno. Depending on where you go, where it be original Bubblegum, 2040 or AD Police, it varies.
That's obviously the AD Police Version, but just by going off the scale, they'd occupy a similar role to the Keiko, which I suspect hasn't received all that much attention since it's still using standard issue gear. Gear that's designed for a class of Medium/Light PA. Not stuff that's more suited to the job that it'd be called on to do.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the K-Series are all a lot more Nepleslian in asthetics, but the concept of a frame of the same size shouldn't be tossed out the window. IIRC, the original version of the K-Suit was more inline with the Aggressor in size, with the thing being roughly 4 meters. Those Sex-Bots and their stolen prototype really gave Leon and his K-Suit a hard time.
Legal accountability. If someone acts in dis-accordance with mission and political objectives stated by an executive body, the chain of command requires someone to be held legally accountable. This could be pursuing a friendly target, collateral damage, firing on friendly units or a morally correct decision which contravenes a legal or ethical decision or ruling declared prior to either the deployment or operation.
This is why you'll notice while drones are used in large numbers, the choice to attack is almost always given by some sort of sentient intelligence which can be held accountable, whether it is living or synthetic. You can't run an inquiry, court-martial, arrest or sentence equipment and the idea of charging the template of the intelligence is frankly ludicrous given that they did not make the decision themselves.
Putting in the pilot solves an ethical problem and legal problem. They are not there for technical reasons: the unit would perform better without them, without doubt, removing the need for heavy life-support and the space to occupy a living body when a computer doing the same job could be no larger than a skull.
But you also have to remember: The design of a given unit on the battlefield is a response to two things: The physical war and the political war. The public demands accountability. You also have to consider that not all technical features of a platforms design are meant for the functioning of the unit itself as a machine, its battalion as a machine or even its carrier group as a machine: A military in and of itself is a machine and accountability is a form of quality control within that machine -- to prevent misuse of personnel, equipment and possible abuses of those things.
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ShotJon
Well-Known Member
All right I had a pretty busy weekend, which all in all was not bad since I missed the shitstorm that happened in this thread. Thank you @Fred moderating this thread. You are awesome.
All right if I could ditch the transformation thing I would, I just went in favor for it since @Wes wanted whatever would support PA infantry to be able to fly and I wanted mecha so mecha that could change into gunship made sense. A compromise if you would.
Luckily Wes stepped in and said that he would not mind mobile mecha. Something that can fly, but keep humanoid shape. That I think is even better.
Smaller (lets say 4-5 meters tall mecha) mecha that has guns but can fly would be in opition perfect. With technology we have, we can make such machine easy I think.
But hey we are all chatting away as it can be this size, that size, this cockpit, that cockpit. Let's hear from Wes, let's move on to practical thing. We have confirmed that mecha could be viable for SAoY and it would have its role. Wes wants it to be mobile and be able to fly, which is really not a problem. I want it to be able to run on the ground and be tought bastards, which is also not problem. Both at once is also no problem. So let's move on.
@Wes, are you okay with Mecha being slowly implemented? Can we move on to make this thing? What do you miss on this if not? Let's get practical. Let's go to drawing board. No more bullshit.
All right if I could ditch the transformation thing I would, I just went in favor for it since @Wes wanted whatever would support PA infantry to be able to fly and I wanted mecha so mecha that could change into gunship made sense. A compromise if you would.
Luckily Wes stepped in and said that he would not mind mobile mecha. Something that can fly, but keep humanoid shape. That I think is even better.
Smaller (lets say 4-5 meters tall mecha) mecha that has guns but can fly would be in opition perfect. With technology we have, we can make such machine easy I think.
But hey we are all chatting away as it can be this size, that size, this cockpit, that cockpit. Let's hear from Wes, let's move on to practical thing. We have confirmed that mecha could be viable for SAoY and it would have its role. Wes wants it to be mobile and be able to fly, which is really not a problem. I want it to be able to run on the ground and be tought bastards, which is also not problem. Both at once is also no problem. So let's move on.
@Wes, are you okay with Mecha being slowly implemented? Can we move on to make this thing? What do you miss on this if not? Let's get practical. Let's go to drawing board. No more bullshit.
@Nightowl That's not actually entirely true. For instance, nekos at one point were considered military property. If you made a purely military weapon that was sentient, you can't exactly give it the right's of a citizen, because that would be letting military tech roam about freely. So unless you want it to sue you you can't give it legal standing as a citizen, cause you have to keep it in a restricted zone even possibly against it's will. And you can't say "Well it signed up for the army, so yeah." cause it didn't you made it and forced it to sign up.
... Syaoran, I can sue the army for conscripting me? Wow. Who do I call? 
They "restricted" me for years.
Unless you are arguing that nekos are Non Compos Mentis, they are still responsible for their own actions as much as if someone was conscripted. Your arse may be the army's, your mind is still your own.
The best test case for your claim would be "in the past, if a neko were to cork off and hose down a mall, can she be charged?" If yes, then there is a sentience that can be held responsible, if "no, her CO gets his arse cooked" then yes, there isn't someone "on site" to be held responsible.
They "restricted" me for years.Unless you are arguing that nekos are Non Compos Mentis, they are still responsible for their own actions as much as if someone was conscripted. Your arse may be the army's, your mind is still your own.
The best test case for your claim would be "in the past, if a neko were to cork off and hose down a mall, can she be charged?" If yes, then there is a sentience that can be held responsible, if "no, her CO gets his arse cooked" then yes, there isn't someone "on site" to be held responsible.
You missed what I was saying Nightowl. The thing is Neko did not exactly count legally as citizens at first. They were legally tools. And a sentient war machine would be the same at the start (cause that's what neko were originally). You can't hold a tool responsible in court. Nekos used to even have bar codes on them. But the problem is the sentience laws. If you have a sapient intelligence even if artificial, by Yamatai law, you have to give it certain rights. Some of those rights would be just plain difficult to give a piece of war tech. Because you'd have to restrict where it can go or risk information leaks. But you're not allowed to hold Sapient intelligence against it's will. But then is it illegal to go out side of these area's with military tech? Is it fair to count irremovable parts of it's body as Military tech? These kinds of questions come up and while it's not a military problem it becomes a legislative problem. And since the main military tech developer in YSE is a company owned by the ruler essentially, I don't think they'd do things that would give the ruler a headache.
In the past Wes tried to submit a mechanical version of the Neko See NH-32
It got rejected even before he submitted it,
As for uploading a Neko into a mecha, as a PC it is not really a good idea for a character. Such a character would be sitting around or unconscious when not needed. Makes for very boring roleplay. While one could conceivably make a mental backup and upload it into a computer on a mecha, but once you do so you get into a legally gray zone because you are essentially creating a sentient AI from the start.
TO avoid that morass you could have soldiers on a ship or installation control a mecha via VR using VCE for example to control it based on telemetry from the unit in the field.
It got rejected even before he submitted it,
As for uploading a Neko into a mecha, as a PC it is not really a good idea for a character. Such a character would be sitting around or unconscious when not needed. Makes for very boring roleplay. While one could conceivably make a mental backup and upload it into a computer on a mecha, but once you do so you get into a legally gray zone because you are essentially creating a sentient AI from the start.
TO avoid that morass you could have soldiers on a ship or installation control a mecha via VR using VCE for example to control it based on telemetry from the unit in the field.
Reynolds
Well-Known Member
I think the problem would be if the intelligence was created just for the armor, or was contained solely within the armor and not allowed to depart it. The Neko or other intelligence could be treated more like a MEGAMI or the way I've seen androids handled. Store it on the the ship's (or other base's) computer, have a designated body it can use if needed/wanted and have its armor. So the only difference would be, instead of putting their body inside the armor when everyone else in the squad is suiting up, they download themselves into it and leave the home computer/body. It's not created solely for the armor, it's not a copy of someone.
If you do that though Reynolds then that's not much different from putting a pilot in it. And it just becomes a little bit extra of a hassle to get the pilot in and out, and you also lose the ability for the pilot to disembark for whatever reason. So the only real advantage would be the pilot maybe being able to disconnect in time to save themselves, but in which case the VR idea is better for that.
I actually agree with Syaoran on that, and Nashoba on the RP of the issue. If technology is at the level of what Yamatai is capable of here, a digitally piloted Mecha is possible, but just bad for RP. What I objected to was to structure the reasoning on the "legality" of the issue.
Which is also a bit of a joke as a fictional universe, legality is "whatever you want it to be". Cigar anyone?
Which is also a bit of a joke as a fictional universe, legality is "whatever you want it to be". Cigar anyone?
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