Rejected Submission RUDaaS Missile

Zack · Jun 25, 2018

Zack · Jul 9, 2018

@Ametheliana The missiles are at the max speed for an unarmored vehicle so they do not exceed the standard. They are also missiles which typically get to go above the standard anyways.

Alex Hart · Jul 9, 2018

And what about all the other concerns? It seems like you're ignoring them.

Ametheliana · Jul 9, 2018

Zack can you address those concerns amicably in the thread or through changes to the wiki?

Zack · Jul 9, 2018

Putting these on starships can be handled in the NTSE when those starships go up for approval. There are already NTSE rules in place for missiles that we can follow.

Rizzo · Jul 9, 2018

I think Zack might have Alex and Frost muted.
It's the YH Warhead Zack. It's range is too far for balance.
Frost suggests:

FrostJaeger said:
Decrease the range of the Single Target Mode from 900,000 kilometers to 5 kilometers - as doing so would eliminate any room for complaint regarding the mode's area of effect.

Establish the Blast Mode's area of effect to be 3 kilometers - as this removes any uncertainty regarding the size of the mode's blast, which was originally supposed to be (and can still be argued as being) 900,000 kilometers.

Zack · Jul 9, 2018

The range is the same as every other space weapon on the site ~3 light seconds. After that it’s generally assumed that you miss your target anyways. Besides a molten jet in space would travel on forever anyways.

The only question really is how much of the nit picking you want to include in the article and how much of it can you leave up to people to figure out in their own.

Rizzo · Jul 9, 2018

Leaving things up to individual interpretation is dangerous. It would be better for us to nitpick the situation now rather than have people draw the wrong conclusion later.
The 3 lightsecond range would normally not be a concern, except the missile can fly to the 3 ls range before firing and leaving the ship launching it quite safe. If you want a 3ls molten jet of metal gun that's no problem. What we can't have is a gun that can hack more range for the launcher. Maybe if the missile was simply a YH howitzer that fires from the launcher it would be fine.
Also, the stream of metal what eventually disperse to the point of being ineffective but I agree the metal would continue until hitting something.

Zack · Jul 9, 2018

The missile already has an FTL module so it can go between star systems. Why would a fraction of a percent more range matter?

Without something like this, and also having missile speed capped at starship speed, missiles would never be able to hit anything due to starships outrunning them.

Rizzo · Jul 9, 2018

Because you could snipe things from Beyond 3 light seconds. It's basically a case of being able to hit other ships without them being able to hit back. At least you can shoot down a missile, but this is untouchable.
Besides, if you can simply FTL right on top of an enemy ship why do you need 3 light seconds worth of range?

FrostJaeger · Jul 9, 2018

Putting these on starships cannot be handled they go up for approval, @Zack, because the C9 (which was already approved) has vertical launch cells that are compatible with the RUDaaS container - thus meaning that issues I raised here need to be addressed prior to approval in order to avoid violating the Weapon Limitations. I would also strongly recommend making the changes @Rizzo mentioned here, because leaving things like range and muzzle velocity up to people to figure out on their own is how you get things like the Yuuko-Howitzer Warhead’s molten jet having a muzzle velocity of 3c (which violates the second rule of this section in the Starship Combat Guide) and an infinitely-large area-of-effect (which would threaten the setting and thus not be approvable according to this section of the Reviewing Submissions guide).

Edit: The missile’s range isn’t the problem, Zack. It’s the Single Target mode of the Yuuko-Howitzer Warhead’s having a long range and no listed muzzle velocity that’s a problem - because with the way it’s worded now, one could justifiably argue that the molten jet can travel faster then the speed of light and thus instantaneously strike a target three light-seconds away - and it’s the Blast mode not having a listed maximum blast radius that is also a problem, because with the way it’s worded now, one could justifiably argue that it has an infinitely-large (and thus extraordinarily overpowered) area-of-effect.

There’s also nothing that says missiles are “capped at starship speed,” Zack; in fact, this section of the Starship Speed Standard explicitly says that “missile-based weapon systems such as missiles, rockets, and torpedoes are no longer required to have a listed STL velocity as of January 1st, 2018” - as it’s assumed that they’re “fast enough” to catch up with their target is, no matter how fast said target is going.

Edit: #2 Apologies that my post essentially repeats some of what Rizzo’s said - I didn’t notice that he’d posted until right before I submitted mine. >.<

Zack · Jul 9, 2018

Because you can’t FTL inside of a star system. You have to drop the missile off at the edge and let it slowly scoot towards its target. It then still has to contend with anything the ship sends out to stop it before it gets within range. Even then you can still shoot down a metal jet. Even then it’s an absolutely huge missile for the amount of DR it does and even then it’s already basically impossible to use missile weapons due to NTSE problems.

FrostJaeger · Jul 9, 2018

Missiles do not have to be slow, Zack - like I said here, they don’t even have to have a listed speed to begin with - and it matters not that missiles have to contend with their target’s point defenses. That’s why there are things like “stacking” your missile volleys (thanks, Honor Harrington!), equipping your missiles with lightweight armor and barriers, firing a lot of them at once in a swarm, and so on; furthermore, it’s much more difficult to “shoot down” (or, more accurately, “stop”) a cone of molten metal then it is to shoot down a missile containing highly-volatile armed warheads, sensitive guidance systems, delicate propulsion systems, etc. - and for that matter, what is the DR of the Yuuko-Howitzer Warhead’s molten jet anyways, @Zack, and what is the “angle” of its cone?

It also matters not that the missile is huge for the amount of damage it does - according to this section of the Submission Rules, “it is not a valid argument to justify overpowered or questionable abilities on your submission by…pointing to an older submission, especially one of a different faction” - nor is it impossible to “use missile weapons due to NTSE problems.”

Zack · Jul 9, 2018

This was all covered previously in the thread, or in the submission Frost.

Alex Hart · Jul 9, 2018

Zack said:
The range is the same as every other space weapon on the site ~3 light seconds. After that it’s generally assumed that you miss your target anyways. Besides a molten jet in space would travel on forever anyways.

The only question really is how much of the nit picking you want to include in the article and how much of it can you leave up to people to figure out in their own.

The reason is because you're mounting that long-range weapon on a long-range missile, meaning you can fly the missile however far, and then fire its weapon.

Rizzo said:
the missile can fly to the 3 ls range before firing and leaving the ship launching it quite safe. If you want a 3ls molten jet of metal gun that's no problem. What we can't have is a gun that can hack more range for the launcher. Maybe if the missile was simply a YH howitzer that fires from the launcher it would be fine.

Another thing that needs to be addressed is the fact that each missile container will be treated as a single weapon under the current weapon limitations, becasuse the container is the final launcher of the missile, not the vertical launch tubes. We can't allow this "hacking" as @Rizzo put it, of the system in order to give you more weapons.

Zack · Jul 9, 2018

If you want to change the rules for how missiles work then the appropriate place to do that would have been the revision thread for missile rules.

Rizzo · Jul 9, 2018

I'd like to point out that the word "submission" is based on the word "submit" in this case meaning to present (a proposal, application, or other document) to a person or body for consideration or judgment. In this case there are three moderators judging that this is overpowered, one of which has a personal investment in the submission. I want my EMP missile. Please don't make my missile denied based on your YH insanity howitzer. Can't you compromise even a little? Your container is already getting you two for one missiles on anything you put them on.

META_mahn · Jul 9, 2018

(I mean, you could always submit that EMP missile as a stand-alone. I’d approve it.)

Zack · Jul 9, 2018

The compromise is that I’m allowed to follow the rules? I’m still trying to wrap my head around that one.

It’s a missile with a shaped charge with the exact range ‘allowed’ by the rules. It falls within the missile rules. It even goes by the speed rules even though it really doesn’t need to. The reviewer that is reviewing the submission seems to know what she’s doing here.

FrostJaeger · Jul 9, 2018

Which posts and/or wiki articles were these covered in, @Zack? I ask because thus far I haven’t see anything that addresses the concerns I’ve raised here, here, and here.

Additionally, Alex isn't trying to "change the rules for how missiles work," Zack - he's applying the ruling I, the creator of the current Weapon Limitations, established here.

The compromise @Rizzo is asking you to make isn't about you being "allowed to follow the rules," Zack - he's asking you to compromise by making some changes to the Yuuko-Howitzer Warhead in order for it to be approved, as in its current state it is overpowered and thus is not approvable; lastly, please read this post for an explanation about why the missile's range and speed are not what's preventing it from being approved.

Alex Hart · Jul 9, 2018

It does not follow the 3 light second rule per-se @Zack , because this missile does not act like other missiles in the setting. It acts like a plumeria gun on a stick, not a missile. It is "obviously designed to circumvent or ignore current SARP rules and systems" and according to the submissions guide that is unwanted.

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Rejected Submission RUDaaS Missile

Zack

Zack

Alex Hart

Well-Known Member

Ametheliana

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Zack

Rizzo

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Zack

Rizzo

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FrostJaeger

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FrostJaeger

Zack

Alex Hart

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Zack

Rizzo

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META_mahn

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Alex Hart

Well-Known Member